'Secret' visit from Santa Claus

[madeleine]

Re people cleared in this case (starting with Burke and ending with the Ramsey's) and having good reasons for that....I doubt it.And I feel the same when it comes to the other suspects in this case.I AM afraid that lots of people weren't looked at carefully.I DO hope that at least those who were on top of the list (Santa,CW,FW) were.I really hope so.Cause I personally would never be able to say I am SURE those 3 DIDN'T do it.....

 

[Chiquita71]

Hello WS

Okay. I need SuperDave.

SD, someone, get me away from having to see that JB said the Santa at her party told her she would get a secret visit after Christmas and the Santa at the party was the old man neighbor that doesn't even really fit a solid IDI theory!
(nice run-on sentence there).
TIA

...JS...

 

[BBB167893]

Hello WS

Okay. I need SuperDave.

SD, someone, get me away from having to see that JB said the Santa at her party told her she would get a secret visit after Christmas and the Santa at the party was the old man neighbor that doesn't even really fit a solid IDI theory!
(nice run-on sentence there).
TIA

...JS...

I think you're referring to Bill McReynolds. And he was the main suspect in the DA's office. But he was eliminated as a suspect very early on. And to be honest, I'm not aware that there is any third-party corroboration of this story that JB supposedly told about having a secret visit from Santa.

 

[DeeDee249]

I think you're referring to Bill McReynolds. And he was the main suspect in the DA's office. But he was eliminated as a suspect very early on. And to be honest, I'm not aware that there is any third-party corroboration of this story that JB supposedly told about having a secret visit from Santa.

Supposedly, one of JB's friend's mother was the one who said JB mentioned getting a secret Santa visit. There was nothing said about JB being told by Santa the night of her parents' party (Dec. 23) or by Santa at that party.
JR was questioned about that red Santa suit he owned.

 

[ShesElectric]

I haven't posted on here in awhile, but something always draws me back to this case. So many interesting dynamics, like the 'secret santa' story which will
probably remain unanswered forever. It's still interesting to speculate, and
I think that the story could hold some important clue to solving this case.
I guess, in my opinion, the person who actually killed her told her this. If that's
the case, there's an eery foreshadowing.I guess the killer made it his bussiness to inform her ahead of time.
It's too bad Barbara Kostanick didn't ask JonBenet' when "Santa" told her this, or where. At least it would've narrowed the time frame a bit.But I can see it's a popular theory among members here that it was at the party on the 23rd.
I first heard about this case in 2006,(when I was 15) when the Karr arrest was going down, and I was fascinated by the long ransom note, tantalizing clues, and the beauty pageant element. I admit, I think it was all innocent, just a little girl wanting to be like barbie or a princess.But I do think it opened the door for people who preyed on children, which is very unfortunate. I'm an IDI, but find it difficult to narrow down an individual.
I'm positive the killer saw the movie Speed in Boulder before the killing, which would explain the movie references. And I'm also sure she was killed
in/or near the boiler room. The urine stains,Smit's theory, the scream(window duct acted as megaphone to alert melody stanton) back this up. Not much else I can be sure on, though. I can see working this case would be very frustrating,indeed. Trying to find closure for John&Burke Ramsey, with no resolution in sight.I hope John's doing okay, and hope he's continuing to look for the killer(s).I guess it's up to the boulder police and
John's private investigators now.
I have a copy of the note that I analyze once in a while, and I try to imagine who made the pen flow, who construed this interesting but baffling
play on words. Graphology is a big help here. BTW, if anyone has or knows
where I can view a copy of the 'practice' note, let me know here. I'd greatly appreciate it.

Connor

 

[MurriFlower]

Well when did JonBenet get that message, and who told her the news about the Secret Visit from Santa AFTER Christmas. This little girl was not dumb, she knew about a visit imop first hand from our killer. I am thinking that she received this special tidbit from someone who attended the party on December 23rd.

A 6yo girl who still believed in Santa. Told to expect a visit 'after Christmas' from a "Secret Santa". Santa wakes her (with a flashlight), sssshhhhh, it's a secret, be very quiet! Come with me and we will go on a journey in the sleigh to the North Pole, pulled by the reindeer, meet the elves. Irresistible!!

The trouble with those Santa Suits is that the hat and beard aren't all that reliable. If they fall off, Santa turns into ........ who?? Confusion? Fear? Realises it's a trick, not really Santa at all? No, she was not dumb, so she tries to run, he comes after her, she screams. Was she hit or did she fall? Either way, her skull is shattered...........she mustn't tell, she probably won't live anyway, it's kinder to end it quickly.

 

[Becky319]

Re people cleared in this case (starting with Burke and ending with the Ramsey's) and having good reasons for that....I doubt it.And I feel the same when it comes to the other suspects in this case.I AM afraid that lots of people weren't looked at carefully.I DO hope that at least those who were on top of the list (Santa,CW,FW) were.I really hope so.Cause I personally would never be able to say I am SURE those 3 DIDN'T do it.....

Madeleine I am just wonder why you think FW might have done it. I always thought of him and his wife as one of the few Ramsey friends that wanted this solved but maybe I am seeing it wrong. I would appreciate your thoughts on FW. Thanks!

 

[pingpong]

I suspect JBR's murder was set up long before the party on the 23rd, and the ransom note was already written out and left there at the party.

I suspect The supposed entry in through the basement window was a red herring.

Anyone could have come into a house with that many people almost undetected, and staged the scene, or had already been in the house long before the Ramsey's bought it.

I also suspect the ransom note was written by someone who really really knew the ramsey's, knew their handwriting, history, and was able to get updated information regurlarly. and in the ransom note are clues to who the killer is.

The White's and all the others were used as tools, from the White's "hey rube" play, and what happened to the White's daughter on the anniversary of JBR's death.

The photo's of JBR as little red riding hood and the wolf, to wolf hair found at the crime scent? IIRC

duplicate Santa's, Fleet White' as Santa, (which had happened for several years and predictable) and the Secret Santa Duplicate

JohnBennet/JonBenet Duplicate names

Duplicate christmas present from JonBenet to her parents: one from school../"I am your christmas present" and the duplicate being the actual JonBenet's death at Christmas (I'm sorry that I have to write it that way)

JonBenet's gift from Patsy was a duplicate of herself.(JonBenet)

The Ramsey's interest in French/and French was the first officer on the scene.

Maybe all of these things are just coincidences..or are the coins on the front sidewalk coin-incident's?

Maybe there is a duplicate Ramsey somewhere that fits in?

This murder was on Boxing Day. To solve it we have to think outside the box, and not take things at "face value"

The weird garrotte= you haven't learned the ropes. The way jbr was tied up was like a puppett on a string. A doll.


Behedded - Jonbenet is not as smart as you think she is...."B" headed

Good Southern Sense - reference to Georgia, but maybe Georgia in another part of the world, which goes along with the of the "faction" WW2 would be my guess.

I think the murderer is very educated, especially in History, Political, Religious, and the Ramsey's pissed this person(s) off somehow, or they are covering for a family member(s) who may be involved.

I thought I'd put this out there, because it's different than all of the other scenario's that have lead nowhere.

Also, what the heck was with Karr...that whole thing made no sense whatsoever.

MOO
This post is my constitutionally protected opinion. Please do not copy it or post it anywhere else.

 

[DeeDee249]

The "Secret Santa" thing obviously blows the SFF idea out of the water, since this "Santa" supposedly had a conversation with JB before that day. It also rules out any stranger who had never had contact with JB before.
If the note was written previously, it also eliminates an SFF. Actually, if the not was written previously, it also eliminates anyone who didn't live there. The note was not folded, so it could not have been torn from the pad and taken in a pocket or purse beforehand. I doubt it could have been handled to that extent and had no prints on it.
The ink was linked to a pen that was found replaced in the holder where it was always kept. The practice note (which Patsy admitted writing, saying it was a party invitation) was still on the pad, so obviously whoever wrote that wrote it in the house.

 

[pingpong]

What does SFF stand for?

What if Patsy's writing tablet (which was purchased locally), was used by Patsy to send messages to a person who was in the lives of their children.IE Doctor, Church Person, etc. (OK< that sounds awful, but just saying)

This identical pad could have been purchased by the murderer, the note written over time, and placed in the house at the time of the party. The ransom note was torn off of the murderer's tablet at the time of the party, 911 was called. There would be no fold marks on the ransom note. Patsy's note would still be attached.

The lack of DNA at the crime scene indicates a person with knowledge of how to avoid leaving dna in my opinion.

This is my opinion, please do not copy or post it anywhere else. Thank You

 

[DeeDee249]

What does SFF stand for?

What if Patsy's writing tablet (which was purchased locally), was used by Patsy to send messages to a person who was in the lives of their children.IE Doctor, Church Person, etc. (OK< that sounds awful, but just saying)

This identical pad could have been purchased by the murderer, the note written over time, and placed in the house at the time of the party. The ransom note was torn off of the murderer's tablet at the time of the party, 911 was called. There would be no fold marks on the ransom note. Patsy's note would still be attached.

The lack of DNA at the crime scene indicates a person with knowledge of how to avoid leaving dna in my opinion.

This is my opinion, please do not copy or post it anywhere else. Thank You

SFF stands for "small foreign faction" mentioned in the note.
The torn off ransom note was matched exactly to the pad found in the R home. (matched as to the pattern of the tear at the top). The thought that a party guest would bring a rather large (legal size) pad to the party and tear off a note without being seen is rather silly. The party was 3 days before the murder. Where would the note have been hidden without being found? This seems pretty desperate. There were also imprints from the RN on the pad.
The lack of DNA at the crime scene indicates that there was no donor other than those who lived in the house.

 

[MurriFlower]

SFF stands for "small foreign faction" mentioned in the note.
The torn off ransom note was matched exactly to the pad found in the R home. (matched as to the pattern of the tear at the top). The thought that a party guest would bring a rather large (legal size) pad to the party and tear off a note without being seen is rather silly. The party was 3 days before the murder. Where would the note have been hidden without being found? This seems pretty desperate. There were also imprints from the RN on the pad.
.

Well there is another explanation you know. Now if you were regularly in the house, you could easily take one or two of these notepads home, who would know or care? You could write a two and a half page note at your leisure and then you could return the notepad also. There were several of these note pads (apparently) found in the home of the housekeeper "White lined notepad that came from Ramsey house". It might be interesting to know if the RN was written on the top pages or in the middle of the notepad?

 

[cynic]

Well there is another explanation you know. Now if you were regularly in the house, you could easily take one or two of these notepads home, who would know or care? You could write a two and a half page note at your leisure and then you could return the notepad also. There were several of these note pads (apparently) found in the home of the housekeeper "White lined notepad that came from Ramsey house". It might be interesting to know if the RN was written on the top pages or in the middle of the notepad?

Not likely, given the following:

"We were then brought up to date on a new discovery. Crime scene techs at the house had recovered three Sharpie felt-tip pens from on orange metal container on the kitchen counter beneath the telephone from which Patsy had made her 911 call, not far from where the ransom note tablet was found."
"U.S. Secret Service eventually determined that one of those pens, a pre-November 1992 water-based ink Sharpie, was used to write both the practice and actual ransom notes. The Secret Service, which maintains a huge database on inks because of its federally mandated assignment ot chase forgers, told us, "the ink 'on the note' is unique in the collection of approximately 7,000 standards from the Ink Library."
"That meant that whoever wrote the notes used the exact pen from that cup. They not only left the pad behind but, when they finished, neatly put the felt-tip pen in its container."
Steve Thomas, "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation," Pg 60


"Chet Ubowski at the CBI had pulled startling information from the tablet belonging to patsy Ramsey. By comparing tear patterns, Ubowski had determined that the first twelve pages were missing and the next four - pages 13 through 16 - contained doodles and lists and some miscellaneous writing."
"But the next group of pages, 17 through 25, were also missing from the tablet. The following page, 26, was the practice ransom note (Mr. and Mrs. I), and that page showed evidence of ink bleed through from the missing page 25."
Comparisons of the ragged tops of the ransom note pages with the remnants left in the tablet proved that it had come from pages 27, 28, and 29."
To me, being able to prove that the ransom note came from her tablet was an incredible piece of evidence.
"Furthermore, the ink bleed through discovered on page 26 indicated that perhaps still another practice note could have been written on page 25 and been discarded. Two possible practice notes and one real one covering three pages led me to believe that the killer had spend more time in the house composing the ransom note than we originally thought."
"But even more significant, it seemed clear that whoever wrote it was unafraid of being caught in the house. We never found the missing pages."
Steve Thomas, "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation," Pg 81

 

[DeeDee249]

Well there is another explanation you know. Now if you were regularly in the house, you could easily take one or two of these notepads home, who would know or care? You could write a two and a half page note at your leisure and then you could return the notepad also. There were several of these note pads (apparently) found in the home of the housekeeper "White lined notepad that came from Ramsey house". It might be interesting to know if the RN was written on the top pages or in the middle of the notepad?

The handwriting matched Patsy's VERY closely. The RN may have been written by someone not using their dominant hand. It was said that Patsy was ambidextrous, and people who are will have similar, but not identical, handwriting with the less dominant hand. I think the note was found to have come from the middle.

 

[MurriFlower]

Not likely, given the following:

"We were then brought up to date on a new discovery. Crime scene techs at the house had recovered three Sharpie felt-tip pens from on orange metal container on the kitchen counter beneath the telephone from which Patsy had made her 911 call, not far from where the ransom note tablet was found."[/FONT][/COLOR][/I]
"U.S. Secret Service eventually determined that one of those pens, a pre-November 1992 water-based ink Sharpie, was used to write both the practice and actual ransom notes. The Secret Service, which maintains a huge database on inks because of its federally mandated assignment ot chase forgers, told us, "the ink 'on the note' is unique in the collection of approximately 7,000 standards from the Ink Library."
"That meant that whoever wrote the notes used the exact pen from that cup. They not only left the pad behind but, when they finished, neatly put the felt-tip pen in its container."

Ah yes, I knew I should have said - what was to stop someone taking one or two of these note pads plus a sharpie pen from the cup home and writing the RN at their leisure and then returning the note pad and the pen to the house later.

Steve Thomas, "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation," Pg 60


"Chet Ubowski at the CBI had pulled startling information from the tablet belonging to patsy Ramsey. By comparing tear patterns, Ubowski had determined that the first twelve pages were missing and the next four - pages 13 through 16 - contained doodles and lists and some miscellaneous writing."
"But the next group of pages, 17 through 25, were also missing from the tablet. The following page, 26, was the practice ransom note (Mr. and Mrs. I), and that page showed evidence of ink bleed through from the missing page 25."
Comparisons of the ragged tops of the ransom note pages with the remnants left in the tablet proved that it had come from pages 27, 28, and 29."
To me, being able to prove that the ransom note came from her tablet was an incredible piece of evidence.
"Furthermore, the ink bleed through discovered on page 26 indicated that perhaps still another practice note could have been written on page 25 and been discarded.
Steve Thomas, "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation," Pg 81

Yes, this was exactly the information I was after. Firstly, the fact that the RN was not written on the top of the note pad is significant. If it was Patsy, she would have likely either used a new note pad or torn all the preceeding pages off and started fresh. The RN being in the middle of the notepad leads me to believe that there is a possibility of it having being written by someone else in advance, the note pad replaced (and the pen), awaiting the future time when it would be removed from the pad and placed where it could be seen.

Two possible practice notes and one real one covering three pages led me to believe that the killer had spend more time in the house composing the ransom note than we originally thought."

"But even more significant, it seemed clear that whoever wrote it was unafraid of being caught in the house. We never found the missing pages."

Ok, so I will say again what I think could have happened that explains all of this quite neatly.

A person with regular access to the house, removes a note pad and shapie pen and takes them home. The RN is written in the centre of the pad. The practice RNs are removed and destroyed, (except for the one beginning "Mr and Mrs" which was missed). The pad and pen are replaced in their normal positions. The top pages of the notepad are used by Patsy in the normal way. When the time comes to place the RN on the stairs, a day or so later, they notice the 'Mr and Mrs' practice note and remove it and throw it in the bin. So the RN was effectively 'hidden' in the centre of the notepad until it was needed.

 

[Becky319]

Hi MurriFlower. I am enjoying reading your thoughts and ideas. Why do you think someone that made such an elaborate plan to kidnap JB would leave her body in the home, even if they didn't mean to kill her? Had they left the ransom note and took away the body the Ramsey's would have to assume she was kidnapped and that would make sense. Leaving the ransom note and JB's body don't add up to kidnapping to me so why bother with a ransom note. If the note was left beforehand I would think once she was killed they would have either left the note in the middle of the notepad itself (following how you said it could have happened) or taken the ransom note with them when they left. Complicated case with so many ways it could have gone, always good to hear other's thoughts.

 

[MurriFlower]

Hi MurriFlower. I am enjoying reading your thoughts and ideas. Why do you think someone that made such an elaborate plan to kidnap JB would leave her body in the home, even if they didn't mean to kill her? Had they left the ransom note and took away the body the Ramsey's would have to assume she was kidnapped and that would make sense. Leaving the ransom note and JB's body don't add up to kidnapping to me so why bother with a ransom note. If the note was left beforehand I would think once she was killed they would have either left the note in the middle of the notepad itself (following how you said it could have happened) or taken the ransom note with them when they left. Complicated case with so many ways it could have gone, always good to hear other's thoughts.

Exactly what I asked when I first joined this group. Why was the body left behind? Or why leave the note at all?

I think the plans were elaborate only in so far as they had been thought out previously with a particular end in mind. You know, I think more planning may have gone into collecting the ransom without getting caught. When it went so wrong at the initial stage of the plan (which was supposed to be the easy part), they panicked and just got out of there as quickly as they could. These people were not hardened criminals or murderers/kidnappers by 'profession', just opportunistic idiots who watched too much TV. They saw an easy way to make a tidy sum from someone who could afford it, no reason they would be suspected, no one would be hurt, easy peasy! Killing the little girl was not part of the plan. How did it happen? why did it happen? This is yet to be determined.

Luckily for them everyone immediately suspected the parents, so the cops didn't look too hard at anyone else possibly being guilty. Had they done so, this would have probably been solved in 24 hours. As it stands 14 years later, it will be very difficult to prove.

 

[cynic]

A person with regular access to the house, removes a note pad and shapie pen and takes them home. The RN is written in the centre of the pad. The practice RNs are removed and destroyed, (except for the one beginning "Mr and Mrs" which was missed). The pad and pen are replaced in their normal positions. The top pages of the notepad are used by Patsy in the normal way. When the time comes to place the RN on the stairs, a day or so later, they notice the 'Mr and Mrs' practice note and remove it and throw it in the bin. So the RN was effectively 'hidden' in the centre of the notepad until it was needed.

Persons (such as the housekeeper) with the type of access that you are implying were investigated and cleared.
As DeeDee suggested, the RN strongly implicates Patsy and is one of the primary reasons that the BPD quickly focused their attention on the Ramseys.
For an excellent layperson's analysis of the RN, check out the following:
[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6404"]Analysis of the Linguistics and Handwriting in the Ramsey Ransom Note - Forums For Justice[/ame]

 

[MurriFlower]

Persons (such as the housekeeper) with the type of access that you are implying were investigated and cleared.

Would you have any information about the invesitgation of these persons? All I can find is on ACR where the housekeeper and her husband were investigated twice (immediately after the murder and again in the following Feb), the house searched once (27 Dec), LHP was fingerprinted and gave hair/dna/blood and asked for a writing sample (which she printed) "Mr.Ramsey" "attache" "beheaded""$118,000". Husband, daughters and son-in-law only gave prints. Not really exhaustive as compared to the Ramseys!!

Interesting that LHP began working for Lawrence Schiller after the murder.

For an excellent layperson's analysis of the RN, check out the following:
Analysis of the Linguistics and Handwriting in the Ramsey Ransom Note - Forums For Justice

Thank you for this, it is really excellent!

 

[madeleine]

Madeleine I am just wonder why you think FW might have done it. I always thought of him and his wife as one of the few Ramsey friends that wanted this solved but maybe I am seeing it wrong. I would appreciate your thoughts on FW. Thanks!

I still don't have any answers re what their fight was about.
He started to act weird BEFORE the Ramsey's pointed the fingers at him.Why?So ok,your friends don't wanna cooperate with LE,why SO MAD about it?Unless you know something....then why don't you speak up?

IMo put up or shut up.All those letters,the big mouth........why.........only because your friend decided to lawyer up?Doesn't make sense.......it's not your business.

He lived 4 min. away from the R house.He had access to JB.He was present at the party on the 23 when that strange incident happened with the 911 call.He knew about the wine cellar and was very familiar with the house and the R's habits.

I just wouldn't clear him that easily,that's all.And you know that saying "I can protect myself from my enemies; may God protect me from my friends!" .Who would know better how to hurt you,a stranger or a friend.Why would a stranger hate that family so much,why take away what they love most.If IDI then it was probably something very personal .IMO

I really find it strange that they NEVER sat down to discuss things.


If there's one IDI argument coming from an IDI expert mouth that I believe then it's something Douglas said once,if IDI then it was someone close to the family.


LE named him way too soon a key witness,shows only how biased they were.Naming FW a key witness is = with naming the Ramseys the prime suspects IMO.HOW did they (LE) know so soon that he wasn't involved?They didn't.But it was convenient.I am so sick of everyone involved in this.....


I know that lots of IDI's still consider him the prime suspect and make some very good points as to why but they keep their mouths shut because admitting it would ruin their "UNKNOWN DNA,UNKNOWN KILLER" scenario .Too bad.


If LE were so sure that there was prior abuse,first of all that doesn't mean it was a family member.Everybody with access to JB(especially family friends,neighbours,etc) should have been investigated from A-Z.Nope,they call such people key witnesses.Based on what?




I don't know whether RDI or IDI,but I think JB knew her killer.Too bad it's all about ego's and none of the teams really wanna find out.(Ramsey's&officials)