Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #14

[Cottages]

I was with ya all the way up to the "he developed schizophrenia" part. I don't agree with that.

You don't say why you don't agree. I'm not sure how to respond to just a conclusory opinion statement. What do you base your opinion on? You think he's a faker? (certainly *could be*) Also, please know that I actually said "it appeared...he developed," so let me know why you don't think so. I'm open . I am always eager to learn!!!

The interviews with his family members indicate schizophrenia: perfectly normal until he became perfectly strange, seemingly overnight. And the symptoms: anger out of absolutely nowhere (not even rejection or another's disapproving expression), extreme paranoia (hence the term Paranoid Schizophrenia), audio hallucinations, significant reality loss, etc., indicate schizophrenia. Moreover, schizophrenia meds help him. Big indicator there too. For example, if you don't know if a emotional dysregulation issue is from BPD or bi-polar, give the person Lithium or Prozac. If Prozac exacerbates, it's bi-polar. If Lithum does nothing, it's BPD (of course this is "generally;" co-morbidities & genetics account for differences in outcome).

Okay, so I just looked Mitten up (which I really didn't have time to do, but wondered if I missed something...) At trial, the State presented 2 psychiatrists as did Mitten. All 4 say Mitten is/was definitely mentally ill and all 4 say either definitely or probably schizophrenia.

The jury did not necessarily think he was faking, though, just because he was found guilty (i.e., they didn't necessarily dismiss 4 M.D.'s) since schizophrenia does not mean one doesn't know right from wrong. Texas uses the McMaughten insanity test which is an extremely difficult standard for insanity (recall one Texas jury didn't think Andrea Yates met the standard, and if she wasn't insane, no one is). That is to say, they probably shouldn't even refer to the McNaughten test as an "insanity" test. It's more of an objective legal standard than a semi-subjective psychiatric standard. If Texas used either the Sudden Impulse or the MPC (combo) standard, Mitten probably would have been acquitted.

Interestingly, like Yates, Mitten didn't clean up, remove fingerprints, get rid of clothes, put the body in the trunk, leave town. He took his mom to the emergency room. Very atypical behavior.

Still open though. Why don't you agree with schizophrenia?

 

[i.b.nora]

In his last three postings, Steph Watts continues with his "I know something you don't know" brand of journalism. Although, in the end, he doesn't really seem to know anything.

http://stephww.wordpress.com/

 

[Bobarino]

TO Kimmer and TwiceIrish:

Thanks.

Kimmer: We have to realize agian that most of what comes out of Joran's mouth are lies--especailly here where he is trying to get a lesser jail sentence. So much of what he says is going to either be contradictory to itself or to the actual evidence.

But can you link me where the confession or anything official cites injuries to knees, chin, arm etc. Thanks.

Again remember, once she went limp after the one elbow blow, he likely was tossing her around and says he ended up on top of her, so all these other injuries if true can be accounted for. But I think there is also misinformation aplenty here too. And then there is damage to tissue that occurs after death. There is often swelling--perhaps especially in that climate. But it is the southern hemisphere and going towards winter. But I don't know what temps her body was subjected to unrefrigerated for 3 days or so.

Anyway who said about the damage to her knees, chin, arm etc? Damage to the chin I can see if he gave her a massive elbow to the face while she was pinned against a concrete wall.

But good of you to question his version of events!


TwiceIrish: (Does that mean father and mother?):

RE: The alleged broken neck. This was put out earlier, is this definite? This may be possible from a very rough strangling, or it may be that the strangling marks were seen around her neck say by the brother, and he interpreted this as her neck was broken, when it may not have been.

Police Q24: How do you explain the wounds in the face and several parts of the body and skull fracture noted during the autopsy?

So they knew that her skull fracture and facial wounds did not come from some glancing blow to her nose, in the manner he described. And they did not ask, "how did she break her neck?"

So the last may not be accurate.

Again I ask that we look at the questions that the police put to Joran which highlighted discrepancies between what he said and what they realized was the COD and other severe inflicted injuries.

 

[jilly]

RE: The elbowing


Does anyone have any answers to one of the questions I posed above.
Is Joran known to have studied any martial arts?

Now I know he was good at sports. I evens aw how a quote from his mother has been incorrectly cited as "delicious sporter", when she said "fantastic sporter" [I saw the actual video interview] with "sporter" meaning sportsman. So we know he did tennis and futbol (soccer), but his use of the elbow to effctively kill her (severe brain damage IMO) is an indication that he studied martial arts.

So Arruba?

Thailand?

Thanks.

Nothing specific about him having training in the martial arts.

In one of his confessions, however, joran indicated: Showing his right hand with four fingers put together and his right thumb pointing up, he said that he hit her hard in the back of the neck with a karate chop.

http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2010/06/joran_van_der_sloot_peru_newsp.html

In his confessions (aside from the robbers) it appears there might be half truths. Knowledge of karate might be one.

 

[Bobarino]

Chanier:

Thanks!

I agree, he certainly has anger management problems--an understatement. He also is evil. Even if he didn't "mean to kill" Stephany with his elbow--and he didn't as she was still breathing. Once it started, he has admitted to not stopping till he ascertained she was dead.

At some point, I may get into the chemical causes for such poor "impulse control" that he has exhibited. But not now I think.


Have you all seen the video of him throwing wine in the reporter Pete De Vries eyes?

Now this was on Dutch national TV, and he could not control himself. Imagine (well we know) what he has done when he gets a small female alone.

I found it telling as to how everyone reacted. DeVries was stunned and suffering much eye pain (alcohol). The father seemed to be either emotionless or perhaps with a slight smirk. They say the mother berated him and told him to apologize, which he eventually did. (I'm sure he meant it. LOL) But as the alcohol harmed DeVries' eyes, and Joran should have been charged with assault and possibly agravated assault or assault with a weapon. And again he got off scot-free.

But it sure showed his lack of impulse control, judgment and perhaps a narcissitic or paranoid delusional state--how dare anyone call me a liar. All the while, he knew he did it. But again, he may have been plaiyng his poker. "Show my outrage at being called a liar, when I am trying to portray that I am innocent." Not realizing that his assault on DeVries helps prove the Natalie matter against him.

 

[TwiceIrish]

TO Kimmer and TwiceIrish:


TwiceIrish: (Does that mean father and mother?):

Yes, indeed it does...of opposing sides too, fun, fun stuff!

RE: The alleged broken neck. This was put out earlier, is this definite? This may be possible from a very rough strangling, or it may be that the strangling marks were seen around her neck say by the brother, and he interpreted this as her neck was broken, when it may not have been.

(respectfully snipped some)

On this site a graph was posted of Stephany's injuries which included a broken neck.

I'm too new to this site to try to track it down. I googled to try to find a link to the ME report but because this story is so sensational, I'm coming up with about 6 million hits and some sites are not allowed to be linked here. I'm not sure about you but I tend to believe CNN and the AP above most.

However, in reading and posting to this site, I have found that the most correct news comes from here first.

 

[Chanler]

TO Kimmer and TwiceIrish:

Thanks.

Kimmer: We have to realize agian that most of what comes out of Joran's mouth are lies--especailly here where he is trying to get a lesser jail sentence. So much of what he says is going to either be contradictory to itself or to the actual evidence.

But can you link me where the confession or anything official cites injuries to knees, chin, arm etc. Thanks.

Again remember, once she went limp after the one elbow blow, he likely was tossing her around and says he ended up on top of her, so all these other injuries if true can be accounted for. But I think there is also misinformation aplenty here too. And then there is damage to tissue that occurs after death. There is often swelling--perhaps especially in that climate. But it is the southern hemisphere and going towards winter. But I don't know what temps her body was subjected to unrefrigerated for 3 days or so.

Anyway who said about the damage to her knees, chin, arm etc? Damage to the chin I can see if he gave her a massive elbow to the face while she was pinned against a concrete wall.

But good of you to question his version of events!


TwiceIrish: (Does that mean father and mother?):

RE: The alleged broken neck. This was put out earlier, is this definite? This may be possible from a very rough strangling, or it may be that the strangling marks were seen around her neck say by the brother, and he interpreted this as her neck was broken, when it may not have been.

Police Q24: How do you explain the wounds in the face and several parts of the body and skull fracture noted during the autopsy?

So they knew that her skull fracture and facial wounds did not come from some glancing blow to her nose, in the manner he described. And they did not ask, "how did she break her neck?"

So the last may not be accurate.

Again I ask that we look at the questions that the police put to Joran which highlighted discrepancies between what he said and what they realized was the COD and other severe inflicted injuries.

Both questions and answers in police interrogations develop incrementally. We possess Joran's confession, not the stages of the interrogation that got him there. Moreover, the format of a formal confession might not coincide with the questions asked or not asked during the hours preceding.

According to reports circulated on several major online news sites, Stephany's neck was broken according to Peruvian police.

 

[CathyinTexas]

I see your point, but my mind keeps going back to Paulus saying "No body, no crime". IMO that statement emphasises the fact that he had absolutely no morals. I definitly understand parental love, but my dad surely wouldn't have said that if I had been in Joran's shoes. Not only that, but I don't think any decent person would have made that statement. I'd be willing to bet that at least 95%, if not more, of the posters here would say that their parents wouldn't have had that attitude or made that statement either.

Though all this is alleged, not proven, I personally agree with Paulus VDS culpablity in NH's disappearance. That statement and the fact he showed absolutely no compassion or empathy for her parents is telling.

 

[Peliman]

One thing I found interesting was the information that Erick Cabrera was supposedly in the casino that night and that he has been noted as a "friend" of Joran's in this article...

It also says that he hasn't given a statement yet. If I recall correctly Joran shook the hand of one of the players at his table as he was leaving the table and he was hanging around and talking to others who were milling around while he was waiting for Stephany to collect her winnings. I wonder if one of them was Erick Cabrera.

I'm surprised that considering Erick is from Peru, he hasn't yet given a statement about the events of that night, especially if he was actually at the table with Joran and Stephany. Although I'm sure he would dispute the title of "friend" of Joran. He is from Peru...how could they be friends? More likely Joran was just throwing his name around since he is an expert player and was expected to be in the final round of that tournament. Joran probably had spent the previous two weeks trying to befriend him. Maybe that's how he blew through all his money. I would imagine that Erick would be playing at some pretty high stakes tables.

MOO

Strictly off the record I'd like to know too. I've been sleuthing some on the two missing Colombian women and so far I have more questions than answers. I read a news report VDS was seen with the two women but the report didn't say who said so. Nothing I can see out of Columbia yet but a raised suspicion.

This sleuthing in a search brought me to a website called poker cheats and it was educational I must say. I found an article on the site about VDS and left me wondering. A small quote and link to the article. I consider it pure speculation at this time but possibly later may play a role, only time can tell.

What really happened is that van der Sloot arrived in Lima, where a major poker tournament on the Latin American Poker Tour was being held at the Atlantic City Casino. He was working the tables in a collusion scam, and possibly a card-switching scam as well. I know firsthand that Peruvian casino officials are not very sharp in the surveillance department and I have previously blogged about their weakness and vulnerability to poker cheats and casino cheats. Evidently, van der Sloot is not highly skilled as a poker cheat, although he gets his highs from card-cheating just as he does from extortion scams and murder.

http://pokercheats.richardmarcusbooks.com/2010/06/serial-killer-joran-van-der-sloot-is.html

 

[FLNY]

(respectfully snipped some)

On this site a graph was posted of Stephany's injuries which included a broken neck.

I'm too new to this site to try to track it down. I googled to try to find a link to the ME report but because this story is so sensational, I'm coming up with about 6 million hits and some sites are not allowed to be linked here. I'm not sure about you but I tend to believe CNN and the AP above most.

However, in reading and posting to this site, I have found that the most correct news comes from here first.

They were posted on the media thread by Patty G...message #58

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106482&page=3

 

[Cottages]

Is the NIMH and our educational system hiding this information from parents?

Bingo, bingo, and bingo! But don't forget the state! See here:

http://www.tyc.state.tx.us/prevention/braindev.html

What in the hell is this information doing on the TYC website? The only people/parents that go to the TYC website besides researchers like me are parents who *now* have children in juvenile detention, as if to say: Ha, ha. You created Junior to be an offender, because you didn't know every little interaction (or lack thereof) really mattered 12 years ago when Jr's brain was forming it's critical "world view" (because we were hiding this information from you), but *now* we're stepping in and taking his liberty away. Sorry.

Heaven forbid Texas (and all states, the federal govt, it's health care agencies, etc.) give parents this information before parents form a human mind. Does it make any sense whatsoever to step in afterwards and say: See, you did it all wrong, and now you & the kid pay (for life!!!)?

But hey, rest assured that Texas does educate their citizens in public grade school on *litter prevention* before they become parents (not funny even in a sarcastic kind of way).

 

[Bobarino]

Jilly:

I read your link. Thanks.

That is interesting about the Karate chop. However, that link has a karate chop and NO elbowing. While the "final full confession" has him "detailing" his elbowing, and no mention of any "karate chop."

It also says, or implies that he didn't talk at all until he gave his "full final confession."

Anything earlier may be misinformation from the Peruvian media? As people have been pointing out here the TV talking heads on American national TV have put out many inaccuracies in this matter. The local papers desperate to sell sensational news before anyone else, may also have misinterpreted things.

Is there video of him holding his hand in the manner of a karate chop?

 

[CathyinTexas]

This is my opinion only. I think he is right where he deserves to be and will get exactly what he deserves.

I think the punishment should fit the crime, so a humane and nonbarbaric society can allow the guilty to be given the basics in hygenic and humane conditions. If the guilty has committed murder and it can proven beyond a shadow of a doubt with forensics then I think that person should be given the death penalty which is fair punishment for murder. I do not think the conditions we have seen in Peru prisons should be allowed though. It breeds disease, which can be spread to the communities around it when these men do leave the prison. I think the conditions are abhorrent and nothing justifies it, in my opinion.

 

[KR2tonenow]

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/06/16/van-der-sloot-update-august-questioning/

11:15 AM ET

Van der Sloot update: Arubans to question him in August

CNN has just learned that Aruban investigators will likely not travel to Peru to question murder suspect Joran van der Sloot until at least the end of August, prosecutor Peter Blanken said.

Investigators from Aruba will not be able to question van der Sloot until Peruvian authorities finish their probe of the May 30 slaying of Stephany Flores, Blanken said. The formalities of Peruvian law also will determine the time frame, the prosecutor said.

more . . .

Makes sense , I wonder if they take the NH case into consideration before trial...

 

[Chanler]

Chanier:

Thanks!

I agree, he certainly has anger management problems--an understatement. He also is evil. Even if he didn't "mean to kill" Stephany with his elbow--and he didn't as she was still breathing. Once it started, he has admitted to not stopping till he ascertained she was dead.

At some point, I may get into the chemical causes for such poor "impulse control" that he has exhibited. But not now I think.


Have you all seen the video of him throwing wine in the reporter Pete De Vries eyes?

Now this was on Dutch national TV, and he could not control himself. Imagine (well we know) what he has done when he gets a small female alone.

I found it telling as to how everyone reacted. DeVries was stunned and suffering much eye pain (alcohol). The father seemed to be either emotionless or perhaps with a slight smirk. They say the mother berated him and told him to apologize, which he eventually did. (I'm sure he meant it. LOL) But as the alcohol harmed DeVries' eyes, and Joran should have been charged with assault and possibly agravated assault or assault with a weapon. And again he got off scot-free.

But it sure showed his lack of impulse control, judgment and perhaps a narcissitic or paranoid delusional state--how dare anyone call me a liar. All the while, he knew he did it. But again, he may have been plaiyng his poker. "Show my outrage at being called a liar, when I am trying to portray that I am innocent." Not realizing that his assault on DeVries helps prove the Natalie matter against him.

Hi, Bobarino, thanks for your note. Yes, I've seen the video of him throwing the wine in DeVries' face. (There's also footage of him elsewhere smashing a glass of water against a wall.) I don't think that any charges were pressed and it certainly helped DeVries' ratings.

Your mention of the chemical causes of such outbursts is striking: I know two people with diagnosed anger management problems and in both cases, I have seen it strike like lightning.

 

[Linda7NJ]

From Wikipedia:

Schizophrenia (pronounced /ˌskɪtsɵˈfrɛniə/ or /ˌskɪtsɵˈfriːniə/) is a mental disorder characterized by abnormalities in the perception or expression of reality. It most commonly manifests as auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions, or disorganized speech and thinking with significant social or occupational dysfunction. Onset of symptoms typically occurs in young adulthood,[1] with around 0.4–0.6%[2][3] of the population affected. Diagnosis is based on the patient's self-reported experiences and observed behavior. No laboratory test for schizophrenia currently exists.[4]

To me, this describes Mitten pretty close in the video. Especially considering that everyone talked about how sweet and what a good boy he was when he was young. Then suddenly, he starts talking and acting weirdly.

Ok..forgive me....I haven't read the entire thread, I assumed we were talking about The Sloot...who the heck is "MITTEN"?????

 

[CathyinTexas]

Hello websleuthers.

This is my very first post, though I’ve been reading on this recent, sad matter for a while here.

[I have written numerous things on several tangential subjects, but not on this precise genre. I have nothing to sell. Only trying to help sleuth with you here.]

On The Elbowing

If this has been brought up before, I apologize. I haven’t seen it.

OTOH, if it is a first for a public discussion, I hope it is referenced as such, and that it helps. And I trust the Peruvian forensic and medical people are considering the following matter.

Now when JVDS chooses to elaborate on something foul he did, two things are likely. 1. He is lying. 2. He is covering up something far worse that he perpetrated. In his confession, he states or implies that the two of them were sitting on the bed, or were near the bed, or such, when he struck her after she hit him first (not likely.) He is trying to say that he glancingly elbowed her in the nose, which then bled, and the media has gone with that.

But I think it is different and far worse. I think he first went into her by grabbing/jacking her up against a wall—probably when she dared to protest his attempted theft—possibly holding her by her throat with one hand, and then he proceeded to elbow her in the face. She may have first struggled to reach him with her hands, while being held by the throat against the wall. He also may have held her that way, demanding her PIN numbers or something else, and she said never, and just tried to reach him with her hands. Maybe she even managed to get in a mild blow to him at this point, in self-defense to what he started. (This scenario even allows this monster to state that she struck the first blow, as he was first holding her by her throat, and hadn’t yet struck her. But he had already assaulted her.)

Now being held up against the wall (or possibly on the floor), her head and body could not be forced through space when elbowed, and her skull and brain thus had to absorb the full force and momentum of the massive blow. If she were held against the wall, possibly the back of her skull was fractured there as well as the front, from the initial frontal elbow blow. Indeed he is lying when he says he doesn’t know how she got her massive skull injuries.

I think his elbow smashed her nose into her skull, shattering the skull, and caused massive brain injury. Her life, as she knew it before this point in time, alas was now over. Even if nothing else were done to her, her brain was likely severely damaged at this point, because it was not a glancing blow (as he falsely claims), but was as just described above—the skull smashing into the brain at the front and back. But this monster then saw 1. what was done to her face and 2., that she was still breathing, and he did not stop until she stopped breathing—which he admits to. (If there is truth to the matter of the eye, as was originally reported, his massive elbow blow to the face, accounts for that too.) He probably got more enraged after it started—“look what you made me do.” Always blaming the victim.

This also brings up the matter of possible martial arts training, as most people would not use their elbows as a weapon unless they studied some martial arts. Does anyone know if he did? Has this been asked before? Did he study this in Aruba? Or is it more likely that he studied this in Thailand, more recently—where such martial arts are more prevalent (Muy Thai and such)? And he then used his new knowledge at the first opportunity! And not as it was intended (defense against someone else’s deadly attack), but against an innocent woman, far smaller than he is. Obviously he is a danger to all around him, especially unsuspecting women. I think, Natalie probably did not get elbowed as the above conjecture indicates he may have learned that more recently. (OTOH, if someone has evidence if an earlier study of martial arts, then this conjecture may be wrong.) Natalie may have been strangled, as I think he first goes for the throat. But with Stephany, there will be massive evidence to indicate, maybe even prove, what was done to her—despite his lies and half-truths.

Well I hope this contributes. Thank you. Oh, and the above is only my opinion, though some science is implicit in it.

Mark Furman showed that the walls in the room are made of hard tile, and that any body part hitting it would be severely damaged, the same for the bedframe which was exposed.

 

[jilly]

Chanier:

Thanks!

I agree, he certainly has anger management problems--an understatement. He also is evil. Even if he didn't "mean to kill" Stephany with his elbow--and he didn't as she was still breathing. Once it started, he has admitted to not stopping till he ascertained she was dead.

At some point, I may get into the chemical causes for such poor "impulse control" that he has exhibited. But not now I think.


Have you all seen the video of him throwing wine in the reporter Pete De Vries eyes?

Now this was on Dutch national TV, and he could not control himself. Imagine (well we know) what he has done when he gets a small female alone.

I found it telling as to how everyone reacted. DeVries was stunned and suffering much eye pain (alcohol). The father seemed to be either emotionless or perhaps with a slight smirk. They say the mother berated him and told him to apologize, which he eventually did. (I'm sure he meant it. LOL) But as the alcohol harmed DeVries' eyes, and Joran should have been charged with assault and possibly agravated assault or assault with a weapon. And again he got off scot-free.

But it sure showed his lack of impulse control, judgment and perhaps a narcissitic or paranoid delusional state--how dare anyone call me a liar. All the while, he knew he did it. But again, he may have been plaiyng his poker. "Show my outrage at being called a liar, when I am trying to portray that I am innocent." Not realizing that his assault on DeVries helps prove the Natalie matter against him.

Best defense is an offense.

You have good insight!

 

[Bobarino]

FLNY:

Thank you for that link,

I stand corrected.

I can make out "broken neck." I can make out some of the arrows, but is there an enlarged drawing somewhere?


It implies or shows the neck is broken in the front I think. And I think a rough strangling could do this. I cannot make out too well the other bodily injuries, but have stated above that those are probably easiy to account for, by what he did once she went limp after the elbow strike.

Thank you again! And is there a larger or more detailed injury diagram or list available?

 

[Linda7NJ]

Hello websleuthers.

This is my very first post, though I’ve been reading on this recent, sad matter for a while here.

[I have written numerous things on several tangential subjects, but not on this precise genre. I have nothing to sell. Only trying to help sleuth with you here.]

On The Elbowing

If this has been brought up before, I apologize. I haven’t seen it.

OTOH, if it is a first for a public discussion, I hope it is referenced as such, and that it helps. And I trust the Peruvian forensic and medical people are considering the following matter.

Now when JVDS chooses to elaborate on something foul he did, two things are likely. 1. He is lying. 2. He is covering up something far worse that he perpetrated. In his confession, he states or implies that the two of them were sitting on the bed, or were near the bed, or such, when he struck her after she hit him first (not likely.) He is trying to say that he glancingly elbowed her in the nose, which then bled, and the media has gone with that.

But I think it is different and far worse. I think he first went into her by grabbing/jacking her up against a wall—probably when she dared to protest his attempted theft—possibly holding her by her throat with one hand, and then he proceeded to elbow her in the face. She may have first struggled to reach him with her hands, while being held by the throat against the wall. He also may have held her that way, demanding her PIN numbers or something else, and she said never, and just tried to reach him with her hands. Maybe she even managed to get in a mild blow to him at this point, in self-defense to what he started. (This scenario even allows this monster to state that she struck the first blow, as he was first holding her by her throat, and hadn’t yet struck her. But he had already assaulted her.)

Now being held up against the wall (or possibly on the floor), her head and body could not be forced through space when elbowed, and her skull and brain thus had to absorb the full force and momentum of the massive blow. If she were held against the wall, possibly the back of her skull was fractured there as well as the front, from the initial frontal elbow blow. Indeed he is lying when he says he doesn’t know how she got her massive skull injuries.

I think his elbow smashed her nose into her skull, shattering the skull, and caused massive brain injury. Her life, as she knew it before this point in time, alas was now over. Even if nothing else were done to her, her brain was likely severely damaged at this point, because it was not a glancing blow (as he falsely claims), but was as just described above—the skull smashing into the brain at the front and back. But this monster then saw 1. what was done to her face and 2., that she was still breathing, and he did not stop until she stopped breathing—which he admits to. (If there is truth to the matter of the eye, as was originally reported, his massive elbow blow to the face, accounts for that too.) He probably got more enraged after it started—“look what you made me do.” Always blaming the victim.

This also brings up the matter of possible martial arts training, as most people would not use their elbows as a weapon unless they studied some martial arts. Does anyone know if he did? Has this been asked before? Did he study this in Aruba? Or is it more likely that he studied this in Thailand, more recently—where such martial arts are more prevalent (Muy Thai and such)? And he then used his new knowledge at the first opportunity! And not as it was intended (defense against someone else’s deadly attack), but against an innocent woman, far smaller than he is. Obviously he is a danger to all around him, especially unsuspecting women. I think, Natalie probably did not get elbowed as the above conjecture indicates he may have learned that more recently. (OTOH, if someone has evidence if an earlier study of martial arts, then this conjecture may be wrong.) Natalie may have been strangled, as I think he first goes for the throat. But with Stephany, there will be massive evidence to indicate, maybe even prove, what was done to her—despite his lies and half-truths.

Well I hope this contributes. Thank you. Oh, and the above is only my opinion, though some science is implicit in it.

EXCELLENT first post!

Welcome!