The Turtleneck Theory

[SunnieRN]

DeeDee249,

The forensic evidence, fibers etc, suggest Patsy strangled JonBenet just outside the wine-cellar door.

.

I have never heard this and would be very interested in reading the source of your comment. Thanks.

 

[OpenMind4U]

IMO, the only evidence which could point to the assumption that death has accured outside of the 'wine cellar' is the urine stain founded outside of the 'wine celler' room...not far away from it, but outside...(according to the evidence available to us and PMPT and ST books).

 

[SunnieRN]

Thank you, that's what I thought.

 

[CathyR]

Was the urine fresh? In other words was the stain still wet or moist?


I read but can't remember where that the fibers matching Patsy's jacket were red in color.

Since her jacket was black red and gray how did only the red fibers get into the crime?

The material used for her jacket was described as fleece like.

Was it wool or a wool blend, was it imitation wool?

 

[UKGuy]

I have never heard this and would be very interested in reading the source of your comment. Thanks.

SunnieRN,

There was a urine stain note just outside the wine-cellar door. Also the paint-tote was left close by, which had fibers from Patsy's jacket in it, and there were shards of wood lying near the wine-cellar that matched the paintbrush handle, the remainder of which was close by. Since there were no signs of struggle or movement in the mold and dirt on the wine-cellar floor. This has been ruled out as the location of her death, leaving just outside the wine-cellar door as the best guess for where she was killed. As the urine-stain would corroborate JonBenet's voided bladder on death, but which has also been used to speculate that this was the result of a bedwetting episode.

Patsy's Atlanta 2000 Interview, excerpt

13 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Now, Mrs. Ramsey,
14 you -- are you aware, I should say, that
15 your paint kit was found very close to the
16 wine cellar door?
17 A. I have heard that.
18 Q. Did you recall at any time that
19 you were shown photographs in that regard?
20 A. No.
21 Q. We have found, and I want you to
22 help us, maybe you can offer an explanation
23 for this. We have found fibers in the paint
24 tray that appear to come off of the coat in
25 the photograph we showed you.
0184
1 A. In the paint tray?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. What's a paint --

December 26, 1996 Search Warrant Page 9:

Body of JonBenet Ramsey
Items recovered from the body include;
Green (?)
Green flakes
Trace evidence
Piece of paper
White fiber
Hairs/fibers
White cord
White long sleeve shirt
White long sleeve underwear bottoms
Panties with floral print
White ligature
Gold colored necklace with cross
Gold colored ring
Gold colored braclet
Black/red/white hairtie
Blue hairtie
Hairtie
Notepad-1 (1RAW)
Notepad-1 (2RAW)
Fibers from area by victim (1KKY)
Fibers from winecellar (2KKY)
Avalanche sweatshirt covering body (4KKY)
Blanket covering body (5KKY)
Wire near body (7KKY)
Fibers from under body (8KKY)
(BLACKED OUT ITEM)
White blanket in wine cellar (11KKY)
Pink Barbie nightgown from wine cellar (12KKY)
Broken glass from wine cellar (13KKY)
Hair fibers from floor of wine cellar (14KKY)
Broken paint brush (21KKY)
Wooden shards near paint tray (22KKY)
Paint Tray (25KKY)
Blue paper near rear south facing door (26KKY)
Rope from backyard (32KKY)

.

 

[DeeDee249]

Was the urine fresh? In other words was the stain still wet or moist?


I read but can't remember where that the fibers matching Patsy's jacket were red in color.

Since her jacket was black red and gray how did only the red fibers get into the crime?

The material used for her jacket was described as fleece like.

Was it wool or a wool blend, was it imitation wool?

It was not specified whether the urine was "wet", but as it was at that point more than 12 hours since her death, I'd say that the description "urine stains" mean it was dry.

We have discussed the red fibers before as to why only they were found. In any woven blend, some fibers may have slightly different composition, so when woven to form a fabric some colors may shed more than others.
The fabric has also been discussed her many times before and there have also been posted interviews where LE and LW are talking about the jacket fabric. It was fleece, but NOT wool. It was a type of polyester/acrylic fleece. If anyone here has ever shopped at Old Navy, it was similar to what they sell as their "Performance Fleece", and the same type of fabric is also sold by Orvis and Patagonia, etc. It is a common fabric we have all seen.

 

[BBB167893]

I read but can't remember where that the fibers matching Patsy's jacket were red in color.

Since her jacket was black red and gray how did only the red fibers get into the crime?

The material used for her jacket was described as fleece like.

Was it wool or a wool blend, was it imitation wool?

CathyR, the fibers in this case are my specialty!

It's been established that the person misspoke. He meant her red sweater.

 

[DeeDee249]

CathyR, the fibers in this case are my specialty!

It's been established that the person misspoke. He meant her red sweater.

Patsy wore a red sweater UNDER that jacket Christmas day to the White's. It was that red sweater she was still wearing that day when police arrived.
This was also the reason behind her argument with JB Christmas Day about what JB was going to wear to the White's. Patsy and JB both wore black velvet pants/jeans. Patsy wore a red sweater and the red/black/gray jacket. Patsy wanted JB to also wear a red sweater (the red cotton turtleneck) so they would match. JB wanted to wear the white sweatshirt with the silver star. She won. LE had photos of JB taken at the White's wearing the white top she was found in.

 

[Steely]

I was speculating about this red turtleneck...

I speculate:
PR really wanted some family photos in front of their Christmas tree in the outfits she had chosen just to do so. They had only taken a few quick snapshots of the kids on an instamatic that morning. (was it a kid's camera?) JR and PR were in their robes when they opened presents because the kids got them up early to open them. PR did not want photos of herself taken without full make-up on so she wouldn't allow anyone to take her picture but she wanted family photos taken LATER when they were all dressed in their special holiday outfits and she had time to primp JB and herself for the photos.

PR also wanted these posed family photos taken with their better camera (a SLR camera?) when the entire family was groomed and color-coordinated. She was so busy getting ready for the trip, (and possibly making something to take to the Whites or did they take a fruit plate?) What with JB refusing to change into the Red Turtleneck...they ran out of time to get family photos before they went to the Whites. (And that is why she wanted her to wear that red turtleneck...for PHOTOS.) Darn, they would have to take those photos LATER. They were leaving the next morning EARLY, so their only chance to get family Christmas photos was to take them right away when they got home. (Did PR mention to anyone at the party she wanted to get more photos when they got home?)

Theory A: When they got home, JB changed into that red turtleneck, PR primped JB and fixed (maybe even curled?) her hair, and PR touched up her own hair and make-up. While waiting for the ladies of the house...BR and his Dad built one of his new toys. They took a few posed family photos in front of the Christmas tree. (Did they find any remnants of make-up on JB's face to indicate make-up was put on her that day for photos?)

JB was still wearing the red turtleneck when she had her pineapple snack. She spilled pineapple juice all down the front of the Red Turtleneck. When PR saw that, she was ticked because she wanted to TAKE that turtleneck with them on their trip for more Christmas photos with other family members. How could she pack it wet? So she scolded her and put her drink (or the rest of the pineapple juice) into a sippy cup. PR went upstairs to rinse out the Red Turtleneck with the intent of throwing it into the dryer and grabbing it in the am to put in the luggage. And JB took her sippy cup and went to watch BR and her dad build BR's new toy. Later...that whole roll of film had to be disposed of because it proved they were lying about JB being asleep.

Theory B:Similar to A except, PR got JB changed into the Red Turtleneck and fixed her hair (maybe even curled it?) and when she was all ready Patsy went to quickly touch up her own make-up. By the time she came back down...JB had helped herself to a snack and JB had spilled pineapple juice (or tea or another drink) ALL down the front of her Red Turtleneck. PR was furious. Not only did she want to get Christmas photos there at home in front of their tree with JB in that RED TURTLENECK... she had ALSO planned to take that red turtleneck on their trip to get more Christmas photos with the other family members. PR was crying and upset and angrily put the rest of the drink in a sippy cup and...

A)no photos were taken and PR frantically tried to get the red turtleneck ready so at least they could get some photos with JB in it with the rest of the family (This might have been the case...I wonder if BR was questioned about Christmas photos?)

or

B)they took photos with JB back in the white star shirt and the film roll was destroyed because it was proof they were lying about JB being asleep.

At any rate, at some point JB got dressed or was dressed back in the white star shirt after having had the red turtleneck on and spilling on it. JB took the sippy cup and joined her brother and dad while they built his new toy and she played nearby until they went to bed or maybe she did fall asleep on a chair and her Dad covered her with his robe (which slipped off) before carrying her upstairs to bed or he gently shaked her and roused her enough to walk herself up the stairs with him closely behind because she was drousy at which point he did remove her shoes. And they were SHOES like JR said not boots because PR made JB wear those cute shoes (seen in a photo from the earlier party) she liked for the Christmas photo shoot.

IF there were any photos...that whole roll was destroyed but either way...PR really wanted to take that RED TURTLENECK on that trip to get more Christmas PHOTOS.

Camera(s) taken into evidence? Photos of BR and JB from Christmas morn...were they at the end of a roll or were those taken on an instamatic?

All speculation not accusation...

 

[Steely]

I was speculating about this red turtleneck...

I speculate: (clipped from Post #49 on this thread)

Theory A: When they got home, JB changed into that red turtleneck, PR primped JB and fixed (maybe even curled?) her hair, and PR touched up her own hair and make-up. While waiting for the ladies of the house...BR and his Dad built one of his new toys. They took a few posed family photos in front of the Christmas tree. (Did they find any remnants of make-up on JB's face to indicate make-up was put on her that day for photos?)

(clipped)

It just hit me....could that unknown mark on JB's cheek possibly be a burn from a CURLING IRON? If PR was frantically getting her ready for quick Christmas photos and JB wasn't cooperating...could PR have had a fit of rage and held the curling iron onto her check...burning JB with the end of the curling iron (JB screamed) and then JB lunged away and fell back and hit her head on the tub or was thrown down in a rage and JB hit her head on the tub? A burn like that would be child abuse and PR would be accused of murder and they'd never believe it was an accident...they'd probably lose BR too....
then maybe they carried her to her bed...they weren't sure how bad she was at first because she wasn't bleeding, Patsy praying for her to come around......they were both panicking and wondering what to do...no blood but she was obviously very injured and very pale...Then...maybe they moved her down to the kitchen (pillow in kitchen) arguing about calling the ambulance and what to do...and then with her pulse so weak they thought she was near death they moved her to the basement where she was strangled outside the cellar to put her out of her suffering and then strangled again with the garotte after she was dead to make it look like a sex offender....

Speculating here...I'm not firm RD or ID...

 

[Steely]

I was speculating about this red turtleneck...
(clipped)

It just hit me....could that unknown mark on JB's cheek possibly be a burn from a CURLING IRON? If PR was frantically getting her ready for quick Christmas photos and JB wasn't cooperating...could PR have had a fit of rage and held the curling iron onto her check...burning JB with the end of the curling iron (JB screamed) and then JB lunged away and fell back and hit her head on the tub or was thrown down in a rage and JB hit her head on the tub? A burn like that would be child abuse and PR would be accused of murder and they'd never believe it was an accident...they'd probably lose BR too....
then maybe they carried her to her bed...they weren't sure how bad she was at first because she wasn't bleeding, PR praying for her to come around......they were both panicking and wondering what to do...no blood but she was obviously very injured and very pale...Then...maybe they moved her down to the kitchen (pillow in kitchen) arguing about calling the ambulance and what to do...and then with her pulse so weak they thought she was near death they moved her to the basement where she was strangled outside the cellar to put her out of her suffering and then strangled again with the garotte after she was dead to make it look like a sex offender....

Speculating here...I'm not firm RD or ID...

So in this theory... a continuation of my speculation... the staging was done by both parents and that is why the fiber evidence is where it is...she was dressed in her Christmas PHOTO outfit when her skull was fractured and they had to change her out of those clothes...and she had leaked urine on her turtleneck, pants and underwear (what was the other piece of red clothing Patsy took time to "fuss" with?)

If there isn't fiber evidence of her holiday outfit on the rug in the basement maybe she urinated once while on the kitchen floor with her head on a pillow and the floor cleaned up later. Maybe even a pullup was put on her at some point to prevent more urine from leaking while moving her. (weren't pull-ups left out? Was the paring knife near the pull-ups used to open the tape on a new BOX of pullups?)

Then they moved her to the basement and strangled her out of mercy (knew she was going to die and wanted to stop her suffering) or they thought she was already dead and they strangled her intending it as staging but then decided they had to do MORE staging to make it look like a sadistic pedophile did it. Maybe JR dressed her in the bloomies which were down there where PR kept the Christmas presents or he ran up to get them...while PR wrote the note while JR was working on more of the staging. (I've wondered if JR didn't even know about the note because I think he'd have talked her out of it or at least made sure it was short and to the point.) (And maybe that is why some people think Burke can be heard saying "But what did you find" because he didn't know about the Ransom note.)

Then PR went to say goodbye...and seeing JB lying on the cold cellar floor...she grabbed the blanket (with the nightie clinging to it) and tucked her baby in one last time. BR went to say his last goodbye (JB's face covered by blanket so he couldn't see her...that might be the reason for the blanket...they didn't want BR to see her face.)... BR left his H-tech foot print by her body and he brought her favorite Barbie. They prayed together over her. They would all be together again in heaven...because they are Saved By The Cross. They told BR..."It was an accident...you know that don't you?...but ...if you ever tell...we'll both go to jail and you'll be alone. You have to promise you will keep it a secret."

 

[Steely]

(snipped)
Then PR went to say goodbye...and seeing JB lying on the cold cellar floor...she grabbed the blanket (with the nightie clinging to it) and tucked her baby in one last time. BR went to say his last goodbye (JB's face covered by blanket so he couldn't see her...that might be the reason for the blanket...they didn't want BR to see her face.)... BR left his H-tech foot print by her body and he brought her favorite Barbie. They prayed together over her. They would all be together again in heaven...because they are Saved By The Cross. They told BR..."It was an accident...you know that don't you?...but ...if you ever tell...we'll both go to jail and you'll be alone. You have to promise you will keep it a secret."

Continuing speculation from the theory above...
Maybe JR and PR did not know BR slipped back downstairs to take JB the nightie (maybe the Barbie at that time too...)...(Didn't JR say, "That's not supposed to be there.")??????

 

[DeeDee249]

Steely- I am confused about why Patsy would be primping for Christmas photos at that time of night. having just come home from a Christmas dinner party and after making several stops on the way home, arriving home around 10 PM (with a 7 AM flight the next morning). I don't know whether you have ever had little kids, but 10 PM on Christmas night after a full day of visiting and partying would not be the time to get them gussied up for photos. Kids are tired and cranky at 10 PM on ANY night, but on Christmas night that is particularly the case.
JB's hair was not particularly "styled" or curled, rather messy, having been pulled back in her customary bedtime ponytail. (a common bedtime hairstyle for girls with long hair- I used to do the same with my own daughter's long hair at bedtime).
The mark on her cheek is the same mark as the two seen on her back. While it LOOKS like it could have been made by a curling iron, the identical marks on her back make it a bit more sinister if that was the case. The cheek is a possible place for such a burn to occur, the back is not.
That being said, the coroner should have been able to say whether these marks were burns. He did not describe them as such- he said they were "abrasions".
Stun guns cause a type of burn as well (electrical). All the more reason why the cause of those marks should have been investigated more thoroughly. (and this favors IDI, IMO) And again- all the more suspicious as to why they were NOT, and why no exhumation was desired or ordered. More and more I see the lapses in autopsy procedure as being more than just sloppy or inefficient techniques. I see it as "going through the motions" on a case where it was KNOWN exactly what happened and it was not meant to dig too deeply for answers.

 

[Toltec]

Don't know which thread to put this bit of info in but here goes:

In the first interview Patsy Ramsey had with Tom Trujillo and Steve Thomas, Thomas asks Patsy if JonBenet slept in Burke's bedroom the night of the 24th. She tells Steve that Burke and JonBenet had made plans to sleep together in Burkes room but she does not recall if they did or not.

That could be how JonBenet's pink pajama pants ended up in Burke's bedroom...maybe they also slept together Christmas night.

 

[Steely]

Steely- I am confused about why Patsy would be primping for Christmas photos at that time of night. having just come home from a Christmas dinner party and after making several stops on the way home, arriving home around 10 PM (with a 7 AM flight the next morning). I don't know whether you have ever had little kids, but 10 PM on Christmas night after a full day of visiting and partying would not be the time to get them gussied up for photos. Kids are tired and cranky at 10 PM on ANY night, but on Christmas night that is particularly the case.
JB's hair was not particularly "styled" or curled, rather messy, having been pulled back in her customary bedtime ponytail. (a common bedtime hairstyle for girls with long hair- I used to do the same with my own daughter's long hair at bedtime).

DeeDee249...Who would want photos THAT BADLY? Sounds unlikely, right? It is just one wild scenario I'm throwing out there...and its feasibility relies on IF there is a possibility those marks could be curling iron burns. If it's not possible...never mind...

I agree it sounds CRAZY to want photos THAT badly that you'd go to all that trouble that late in the night when you had to go on a trip so early the next day. But many of the other RDI theories have the R's doing much more nefarious things than holding a curling iron to their daughter, right? If some suspected a stun gun...why not a curling iron? And what if the "red heart" on her palm was a scorch mark from JB trying to grab the iron and pull it away from her face?

You are right...JB wasn't styled or curled! That would be why PR might have felt like she ought to throw in a few quick curls! And if my scenario was right...(I agree this sounds crazy!) her hair didn't get curled...or very much because PR became enraged.

I think very few Mom's would want Christmas photos THAT badly they'd attempt them that late. I wouldn't. You wouldn't. Can we say that nobody would? Possibly. But we are talking about a woman who paid for photo shoot after photo shoot...a woman who obviously took tremendous pride and pleasure in dressing her family well for the Holidays. A woman really upset her daughter wouldn't wear a shirt so the two of them would match. This was Christmas night and those kids had been whisked away to friend's for dinner... they were probably really excited to get home to play with their new toys just a little bit since they were leaving WITHOUT most of them in the morning. JR said he helped BR build a toy that night because he was so excited about it and he new he would settle down faster if he sat down and built it with him (or something close to that) ...is there even a slight chance that if that was the case...they were still dressed and they were building that toy while they were waiting for PR to quickly get JB ready for some quick photos?

 

[claudicici]

I still believe Christmas 1996 photo's of the R"s did exist aside from the few snapshots Xmas morning.There's no way I believe there was a Ramsey Christmas without some sort of formal pictures being taken or a movie made.So where are they?

 

[joeskidbeck]

I still believe Christmas 1996 photo's of the R"s did exist aside from the few snapshots Xmas morning.There's no way I believe there was a Ramsey Christmas without some sort of formal pictures being taken or a movie made.So where are they?

I'm with you, Claudi. I have always believed there was a video, but it was destroyed that night. It either shows Patsy in a full on rage when JonBenet opened the My Twinn doll or there was someone else there that Christmas that they don't want anyone knowing about.

 

[my_tee_mouse]

As for the possibility of PR wanting photos taken on that day and at that late hour (having come home from the Whites), the only way I see that happening is if the instigator was in full BP mania mode, in which case it would be entirely possible. However, I just don't think we've seen enough evidence to determine that PR was BP

 

[UKGuy]

Don't know which thread to put this bit of info in but here goes:

In the first interview Patsy Ramsey had with Tom Trujillo and Steve Thomas, Thomas asks Patsy if JonBenet slept in Burke's bedroom the night of the 24th. She tells Steve that Burke and JonBenet had made plans to sleep together in Burkes room but she does not recall if they did or not.

That could be how JonBenet's pink pajama pants ended up in Burke's bedroom...maybe they also slept together Christmas night.

Toltec,

Sure could be, do you have a source for JonBenet's pink pajama pants ending up in Burke's bedroom?

Must admit these are alike the red turtleneck: they fit in somewhere but where?

.

 

[UKGuy]

So in this theory... a continuation of my speculation... the staging was done by both parents and that is why the fiber evidence is where it is...she was dressed in her Christmas PHOTO outfit when her skull was fractured and they had to change her out of those clothes...and she had leaked urine on her turtleneck, pants and underwear (what was the other piece of red clothing Patsy took time to "fuss" with?)

If there isn't fiber evidence of her holiday outfit on the rug in the basement maybe she urinated once while on the kitchen floor with her head on a pillow and the floor cleaned up later. Maybe even a pullup was put on her at some point to prevent more urine from leaking while moving her. (weren't pull-ups left out? Was the paring knife near the pull-ups used to open the tape on a new BOX of pullups?)

Then they moved her to the basement and strangled her out of mercy (knew she was going to die and wanted to stop her suffering) or they thought she was already dead and they strangled her intending it as staging but then decided they had to do MORE staging to make it look like a sadistic pedophile did it. Maybe JR dressed her in the bloomies which were down there where PR kept the Christmas presents or he ran up to get them...while PR wrote the note while JR was working on more of the staging. (I've wondered if JR didn't even know about the note because I think he'd have talked her out of it or at least made sure it was short and to the point.) (And maybe that is why some people think Burke can be heard saying "But what did you find" because he didn't know about the Ransom note.)

Then PR went to say goodbye...and seeing JB lying on the cold cellar floor...she grabbed the blanket (with the nightie clinging to it) and tucked her baby in one last time. BR went to say his last goodbye (JB's face covered by blanket so he couldn't see her...that might be the reason for the blanket...they didn't want BR to see her face.)... BR left his H-tech foot print by her body and he brought her favorite Barbie. They prayed together over her. They would all be together again in heaven...because they are Saved By The Cross. They told BR..."It was an accident...you know that don't you?...but ...if you ever tell...we'll both go to jail and you'll be alone. You have to promise you will keep it a secret."

Steely,
Interesting ideas. For me its staging all the way here. Too many people confuse the staging for crime-scene evidence. Consider the blood-stained pink barbie nightgown which some contend arrived in the wine-cellar via static cling, so then we discover a barbie doll, static cling anyone?

Lets assume a PDI, e.g. a bedwetting scenario. So what does Patsy do with JonBenet's urine-soaked size-6 underwear? Well she washes them out under the tap in the bathroom, then wrings them out by hand and hangs them up to dry. Then she looks in JonBenet's underwear drawer for another pair of size-6's?

What you do not do is make her size-6's vanish and redress her in size-12's, just what is all that about?

All the stuff that is in the wine-cellar but we reckon should not be there, is there for one of two reasons.

1. Its staging plain and simple.

2. Its a prior crime-scene relocated.

If there were not direct evidence of prior molestation e.g close to the time of death, then a PDI seems a reasonable explanation.

As per the autopsy report, and Coroner Meyer's verbatim remarks regarding digital penetration and sexual contact then it seems inescapable that we have a sexually motivated homicide. And not one arising from an accident which is then hidden behind staging.

Patsy's slip regarding the red turtleneck suggests it played a part in her death or the staging?



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