Meredith Kercher murdered - Amanda Knox convicted, now appeals #6

[Nova]

Amanda's drunken night 5 days prior to her witness interview is not evidence visa vie her lies, it is evidence in relation to the activities on the night of the murder. Being questioned as a witness, or doing a walkthrough of the cottage, is not evidence of anything....

My point was that you throw out four days of activities and then claim AK was only questioned for 2 hours. That others do not do the same doesn't make them wrong, must less liars; they simply take into consideration several days you have chosen to disregard.

It was my assumption that the pizza date was nice ... Amanda appeared to be in good spirits immediately after the dinner ... doing cartwheels and so on.

This sounds like strong evidence of innocence to me. A guilty 20-year-old, one with no previous experience with the police, should be expected to be quite nervous at a police station, no? Yet you and so many insist AK was acting carefree and lighthearted. Surely that was because at that point, she had nothing to hide and nothing to fear.

Two hours later she was "recovering" horrible memories of a murder. Wonder what happened in the interim...

 

[flourish]

Perhaps my use of the word "diagnosis" was unfair. Certainly, Jade is entitled to form an opinion as to AK's character.

I used the word "diagnosis" because Jade uses a particular, albeit obsolete, psychiatric term to describe AK, not the more general character references made by others in this thread. It seems more a "diagnosis" to me than an opinion, much as if I were to announce that Mignini is a paranoid schizophrenic (another term which is probably obsolete by now).

None of this would matter, except that, as I understand her, Jade believes AK's sociopathy is proof that AK was certain to behave improbably, and therefore examination of the likeliness of actions attributed to AK is irrelevant. (This all started in response to my skepticism that anyone would run around Perugia with a 12" steak knife.) Again, this seems more the territory of diagnosis than mere judgment of character.

In short, to say AK was self-focused is a judgment of character (and one with which I'd probably agree: it's not an uncommon trait among 20-year-olds). To say AK is a sociopath is more in the nature of a diagnosis.

Or so it seems to me. Either way, of course, Jade is entitled to post her opinion and I'm entitled to disagree or, more precisely, opine that we are "diagnosing" AK without following the appropriate diagnostic procedures.

RBBM

Perhaps.

This best-selling, highly-acclaimed book was published in 2006, which wasn't so long ago:

Amazon.com: The Sociopath Next Door (9780767915823): Martha Stout: Books

So I disagree that that term is "obsolete." It may be redefined and/or changed in the DSM IV, and apparently more changes are coming in the DSM V, but it's still a commonly used word, IMO. If I were writing a university paper, I would likely not use it, and instead use the name and wording from the DSM, but, thank goodness, this isn't a university paper
And yes, we can all opine all we want here, which is the beauty of WS.

However, Jade is the only person who knows whether or not she was indicating a diagnosis or not. We can only opine about what she was communicating.

 

[Nova]

So ... it's a cultural difference ... and in North America it's quite normal to make remarks like that to people that have just had a friend brutally murdered?

One friend wondered if Amanda had gone crazy because she was flirting with Raffaele and making crass remarks about Meredith while Meredith's friends, who had also only known Meredith for a short time, were deeply saddened.

I was merely speculating on cultural differences. I have a number of British friends and there are many situations where we expect different decorum. (But none of those situations is comparable to a murder and its investigation.)

It is true, however, that some people make inappropriate remarks precisely in response to stress and tragedy. I could give you any number of examples I've witnessed (including things I've said myself that appalled me later), but none of them happened in Italy.

 

[Nova]

I'm glad you think it was funny, but I didn't miss the bold part at all.

My point was (AND STILL IS) that someone from the family (or innocent side) gave the diary/journals information away. I don't believe the 'cited' article.

IMO from pm-ing several at PMF the information was from Candace and Frank... not an investigator. If someone can produce the 'investigator's' name, maybe I would change my mind. I also think it was a bad decision... but that doesn't mean the family/innocent side didn't release the info. They certainly have made a few doosies IMO... like the entire 'PR' campaign.

So how did an Italian court find the writer and publisher culpable if AK's representatives (her family) gave the writer the material?

 

[otto]

My point was that you throw out four days of activities and then claim AK was only questioned for 2 hours. That others do not do the same doesn't make them wrong, must less liars; they simply take into consideration several days you have chosen to disregard.



This sounds like strong evidence of innocence to me. A guilty 20-year-old, one with no previous experience with the police, should be expected to be quite nervous at a police station, no? Yet you and so many insist AK was acting carefree and lighthearted. Surely that was because at that point, she had nothing to hide and nothing to fear.

Two hours later she was "recovering" horrible memories of a murder. Wonder what happened in the interim...

When Knox was in Berlin, she arrived at work per arrangements made by her uncle. She was there half a day, and then walked off the job. Her explanation was that she had the flu the previous week, so she didn't feel well ... and then she proceeded to party for two weeks while staying at the apartment that was provided to her for the purpose of work. She did not notify her uncle of her irresponsible decision. When she was caught, she provided some tears and drama, and she got away with it.

In this situation, we have Knox claiming that because she had a flu several days earlier, she could simply walk off the job ... for me, I don't see a connection. I also don't see a connection between Knox getting loaded on Friday and being too incoherent to have her wits about her the following Tuesday. Furthermore, I don't see a connection between Knox doing a walkthrough of the cottage on, say, Monday, as having an impact on her state of mind on Tuesday.

We can't have it both ways. Either Knox is a normal, educated, healthy, average person, or she is a feeble minded, helpless, person that cannot distinguish between helping and telling lies, and cannot adapt to new situations without difficulty. If she is the latter, what was she doing in Europe? If she is the former, why should she not take responsibility and approach each day and each task without being unduly influenced by a drug binge that happened days eariler, or previous witness statements she provided?

When Knox writes about her Berlin fiasco in her myspace page, she describes it like any manipulative woman would ... she talks about giving some tears, and then ends the story with "ciao sucker". For me, it sounds like she had no problem switching from the sick working woman to the party animal, or switching from the sorry tearful neice to the haughty "gotcha" woman.

 

[Nova]

...So I disagree that that term is "obsolete." It may be redefined and/or changed in the DSM IV, and apparently more changes are coming in the DSM V, but it's still a commonly used word, IMO. If I were writing a university paper, I would likely not use it, and instead use the name and wording from the DSM, but, thank goodness, this isn't a university paper
And yes, we can all opine all we want here, which is the beauty of WS.

However, Jade is the only person who knows whether or not she was indicating a diagnosis or not. We can only opine about what she was communicating.

It wasn't I who first said the term was obsolete; I merely conceded that point when it was made by others. I don't care and I did not criticize anyone on that ground.

My point was that a technical term has made its way into the lay vocabulary through repetition, but its use by the lay population (including myself) is inexact and not proof of anything. Calling Amanda Knox a sociopath does not explain the lack of forensic evidence against her. (Nor does insisting she somehow cleaned up her own DNA while leaving Rudy Guede's behind, but that's another argument.)

 

[Nova]

When Knox was in Berlin, she arrived at work per arrangements made by her uncle. She was there half a day, and then walked off the job. Her explanation was that she had the flu the previous week, so she didn't feel well ... and then she proceeded to party for two weeks while staying at the apartment that was provided to her for the purpose of work. She did not notify her uncle of her irresponsible decision. When she was caught, she provided some tears and drama, and she got away with it.

In this situation, we have Knox claiming that because she had a flu several days earlier, she could simply walk off the job ... for me, I don't see a connection. I also don't see a connection between Knox getting loaded on Friday and being too incoherent to have her wits about her the following Tuesday. Furthermore, I don't see a connection between Knox doing a walkthrough of the cottage on, say, Monday, as having an impact on her state of mind on Tuesday.

We can't have it both ways. Either Knox is a normal, educated, healthy, average person, or she is a feeble minded, helpless, person that cannot distinguish between helping and telling lies, and cannot adapt to new situations without difficulty. If she is the latter, what was she doing in Europe? If she is the former, why should she not take responsibility and approach each day and each task without being unduly influenced by a drug binge that happened days eariler, or previous witness statements she provided?

When Knox writes about her Berlin fiasco in her myspace page, she describes it like any manipulative woman would ... she talks about giving some tears, and then ends the story with "ciao sucker". For me, it sounds like she had no problem switching from the sick working woman to the party animal, or switching from the sorry tearful neice to the haughty "gotcha" woman.

otto, you've constructed two opposite poles, but human beings rarely fall into "either/or" binaries. I agree that the Berlin episode shows AK to be immature and capable of inventing an excuse for poor conduct. She also seems irresponsible and in possession of a sense of entitlement. I've never described her as an angel.

But there's quite a distance between blowing off your uncle with a lame excuse and raping and murdering your roommate with two men, one of whom you barely know.

 

[otto]

It wasn't I who first said the term was obsolete; I merely conceded that point when it was made by others. I don't care and I did not criticize anyone on that ground.

My point was that a technical term has made its way into the lay vocabulary through repetition, but its use by the lay population (including myself) is inexact and not proof of anything. Calling Amanda Knox a sociopath does not explain the lack of forensic evidence against her. (Nor does insisting she somehow cleaned up her own DNA while leaving Rudy Guede's behind, but that's another argument.)

Even correctly labeling someone as a sociopath would not explain forensic evidence. There's really no connection. Knox appears to have some sociopathic personality traits. There is ample forensic evidence implicating Knox in the murder. There is no connection between the two.

 

[Nova]

Nova, I am surprised someone would think you have a lack of "intellectual curiosity," let alone opine such a thing publicly. You are one of the most intelligent, articulate, and knowledgeable posters on this case!

But let's not let facts get in the way of analyzing this case when we can instead use our emotions and biases. All those 'rules' used in U.S. courts are so very antiquated now anyway. Pffffffftttt.

If they look guilty then that is self-evident. It will speed court cases through the system by a couple orders of magnitude. win/win! :crazy:

It is striking how many of the arguments against AK come not from the trial testimony but from the "trial by media" that preceded the court case. And yet we are assured that the jury disregarded all those claims which were never raised in court by the prosecutor. I have to wonder...

 

[otto]

otto, you've constructed two opposite poles, but human beings rarely fall into "either/or" binaries. I agree that the Berlin episode shows AK to be immature and capable of inventing an excuse for poor conduct. She also seems irresponsible and in possession of a sense of entitlement. I've never described her as an angel.

But there's quite a distance between blowing off your uncle with a lame excuse and raping and murdering your roommate with two men, one of whom you barely know.

There's not much difference between being very adaptable to new situations in Berlin and other parts of Europe, and being able to approach each day as a new day, unimpeded by the drug binge, or the conversation with the police, days earlier. Knox is so adaptable she can meet a man in the afternoon and pretty much move in with him in the evening.

 

[otto]

It is striking how many of the arguments against AK come not from the trial testimony but from the "trial by media" that preceded the court case. And yet we are assured that the jury disregarded all those claims which were never raised in court by the prosecutor. I have to wonder...

Do you think that the judge and jurors decided the verdict based on newspaper articles?

 

[Nova]

Because if an investigator is not named... maybe is WASN'T an investigator.

2 (or more) can play those 'games'. :seeya:

Maybe it was a secretary or janitor. I don't know.

From what I can find, the journals were in police custody. Somehow the author got access to them and published excerpts in his book. If anyone knows how the material made its way from LE to the author, I haven't found the mention.

So you are correct: it may not have been an investigator who gave the material to the writer. But it almost certainly was not AK's family either, since LE had the originals, not copies.

If the author had received the material from AK's family, I believe he would have argued as much during the invasion of privacy lawsuit. In fact, that would have been his primary defense.

 

[Nova]

There's not much difference between being very adaptable to new situations in Berlin and other parts of Europe, and being able to approach each day as a new day, unimpeded by the drug binge, or the conversation with the police, days earlier. Knox is so adaptable she can meet a man in the afternoon and pretty much move in with him in the evening.

Oh, otto, lots of kids form attachments very quickly. What does that prove?

And what does AK's "adaptability" have to do with committing murder?

 

[Nova]

Do you think that the judge and jurors decided the verdict based on newspaper articles?

I think it's quite possible they were influenced, yes. But I'll say it for you: I wasn't there and I can't know for sure.

 

[dgfred]

Perugia Murder File - Forum Index - page 11 - today's post.

 

[SleuthyGal]

Sorry Nova! I meant to say 'he' and got myself turned around backasswards, as it were.

 

[otto]

Oh, otto, lots of kids form attachments very quickly. What does that prove?

And what does AK's "adaptability" have to do with committing murder?

I understood you to be saying that because Knox provided witness testimony to police on, say, Monday, we should view her circumstances as having been unduly subjugated by the experience; that she was therefore not really questioned for only 2 hours before lying, but that she was in fact under the mental oppression of those earlier witness interviews.

I am disagreeing with this. I am saying that all evidence of Knox is that she is highly adaptable, perhaps moreso than most. She recovered quickly from Meredith's murder, recovered quickly when caught blowing off work in Berlin, adapted easily to the liberal attitudes in parts of Europe, and does not appear to have any history of having difficulties adapting to new situations. Therefore, providing witness testimony on Monday should not impede her ability to think straight on Tuesday.

 

[Nova]

Sorry Nova! I meant to say 'he' and got myself turned around backasswards, as it were.

No problem. As I said, no offense taken whatsoever. I just don't want anyone to think I'm masquerading as someone I'm not.

 

[otto]

I think it's quite possible they were influenced, yes. But I'll say it for you: I wasn't there and I can't know for sure.

Give people a little credit! Juries in the US are rarely sequestored anymore in spite of the rampant talking heads twisting every sordid detail of juicy crimes into something completely false. Italian jurors are as capable as anyone in terms of doing the job they are tasked with. I am confident that in Italy, like in most countries, people are able to form an opinion about guilt based on evidence presented in court and not the newspapers.

 

[Nova]

I understood you to be saying that because Knox provided witness testimony to police on, say, Monday, we should view her circumstances as having been unduly subjugated by the experience; that she was therefore not really questioned for only 2 hours before lying, but that she was in fact under the mental oppression of those earlier witness interviews.

I am disagreeing with this. I am saying that all evidence of Knox is that she is highly adaptable, perhaps moreso than most. She recovered quickly from Meredith's murder, recovered quickly when caught blowing off work in Berlin, adapted easily to the liberal attitudes in parts of Europe, and does not appear to have any history of having difficulties adapting to new situations. Therefore, providing witness testimony on Monday should not impede her ability to think straight on Tuesday.

I understand now, thanks. I'm not sure anyone is so adaptable that she will commit a murder and then voluntarily hang out at a police station while her boyfriend is questioned, but there's no question that AK possessed considerable self-confidence, considering her ability to function abroad in several languages (even if she lacked fluency in some of them).