chasing.halos
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Another balcony onlookers thrown out for sleeping. I've lost track how many this makes! At least 5 upstairs and 3 downstairs. #CaseyAnthony
2011.06.17 TRIAL Day Twenty-one (Morning Session)
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Why'd it take so long then? The Judge is now saying even he knows a stain is a different color. A stain is not a stain if there's no stain you can notice. Right.
MissJames
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He's putting this squarely back on JB. He was given the impression ..........
You just can't make this stuff up.
mombomb
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JURY NOT IN COURTROOM
HHJBP - at some point it may be helpful that any subsequent experts that may appear - I'd like their report.
PROFFER BY JB:
Based on your experience is the stain easily distinguishable. Anyone with experience would be able to look at it and smell it and tell. There are also presumptive tests such as phenolphthalein.
Were you questioned about this study during your depo? Yes.
OBJECTION BY JA - it speaks for itself.
JB - it may depend on the interpretation of questions by counsel.
HHJBP - All I need are his opinions. Either show it to me in his report or his deposition. What opinion is he going to give? Attorneys can then argue whether that was disclosed.
1/28/11 deposition shown to judge. Judge - go ahead
JB - he is asked there about the decomp in trunk relative to his study.
JA - have we finished listening to the opinion of the witness. Obviously he is not qualified to talk about the phenol. I'll wait - counsel is busy texting.
HHJBP - I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR EDITORIAL COMMENTS. LET'S STICK TO THE FACTS. I CARE LESS WHAT MR. BAEZ MAY BE DOING OR NOT DOING. ALL I AM CONCERNED WITH AT THIS TIME IS THE PROFFER AND WHETHER OR NOT IT WAS IN HIS REPORT VS HIS DEPO IS A VIOLATION OF THIS COURT'S ORDER. I DO NOT CARE IF MR. BAEZ IS STANDING ON HIS HEAD, STANDING ON ONE LEG, LETS JUST STICK WITH THE FACTS AND BE PROFESSIONAL. NOW, MR. BAEZ ASK HIM THE QUESTION
JB - If a body was to decompose in a car - what type of fluid, what would you expect to see of the decomp fluid?
The decomp fluid has a blackish staining quality to it. In a car trunk it will seep into the liner and then into the liner underneath. In a day or two, in these temperatures, the body fluids leach rather rapidly due to rupturing of the skin surface3 of the body.
JB - that is what I believe is a slightly expanded answer that he gave in his depo.
JA - It is not even similar to any answer he gave, or opinion he gave. He apparently now wants to state he can identify the fluid compared to other fluids. Not in depo. His statements and opinions of what occurs with decomp fluid is not in his depo or report and completely outside his area of expertise. The only other reference he made to the trunk is at page 32 where he acknowledges even 2 years later detecting the fowel odor.
JA - OBJECT as in violation of court order and outside of expertise.
JB - not outside expertise - Dr. Haskel testified to these things.
HHJBP - refresh my memory as to what Dr. Haskel testified to.
JB - he testified about the different stages of decomp, what happens to the body and the insects and how they relate to decomp.
JA - No objection to testimony of generalities. Objection is to specific talk about stains of decomp. Not discussed in depo.
JB - Dr. Haskel also identified the stain as decomp fluid and the napkins and paper towels were decomp fluid. I don't understand the distinction.
HHJBP - go to page 28 of depo - BOTH OF YOU. Read pages 28 thru 32. After you read, then tell me, both of you (I guess we'll get a tale of 2 cities) as to what this doctor testified in his deposition. Tell me how similar or dsisimilar this was to Dr. Haskel's testimony.
HHJBP - On line 15 of page 28 there is a question - is there any evidence here that one might have cleaned the trunk of decomp - based on insects NO - based on my experience of decomp in a trunk - I don't now that you could clean it up with paper towels. Any evidence of clean up? Paper towel?
JB - I agree court both experts have been questioned thoroughly
JA - Surprise is the witness's claim that he can identify a stain as to whether it is or is not decomp. Change in testimony. Nothing in report or depo to indicate this. Nothing in report about color of decomp. Completely outside his area of expertise. He is an entomologist. Dr. Haskel talked about decomp fluid in napkins. He doesn't recall asking him about the stain or to identify it.
JB - Dr. Haskel testified extensively about the areas of decomp.
HHJBP - pulling Dr. Haskel's testimony up now.
HHJBP - Doctor if you need to stand down, you can. Witness leaves witness stand.
JB - May I assist the court?
HHJBP - You'll get a chance - let me assist myself for now.
JB - referring court to 9:11 a.m. where Dr. Haskel began to discuss the stages of decomp.
(ICA whispering with DCS and CM)
HHJBP wants them to come up and to look at his screen - starting on page 14. YA'LL CAN READ JUST AS WELL AS I CAN. JA, JB and CM at Judge's computer. CM leaves, JB leaves - leaving JA alone and looking confused. JA leaves and HHJBP comes back to the bench.
HHJBP - Anything else? Nothing from defense. Mr. A - nothing about the stain.
HHJBP - Court founds that it does not violate the Court's order. Dr. Haskel talked about decomp. While I'll agree with JA, every opinion is not expressed - the area and subject matter is decomposition and it is not a major earth-shattering opinion and to disallow at this point due to minor inconsistencies would be error Whether the jury finds him to be an expert.... Mr. Baez, don't get too enthused and try to make him into an expert in something he is not If you think there will be other areas of surprise, I will permit you at this time, Mr. Ashton, to question him, since you are saying you did not know which would be the remedy for this.
JA - Specifically the issue of the phenolphthalein test is outside his area of expertise.
HHJBP - you can ask him that.
Witness returns to stand.
HHJBP - state may question.
EXAMINATION BY JA:
Stain identification experience revolves around a paper he publishes regarding the identification of grave soil analysis which is decomp fluid. Stains on carpet or fabrics? My experience is watching and observing decomp of animals and humans on carpets - 20 or 30 times. Carpet colors? I don't know off hand. Will you testify that human decomp stains have a color? Decomp stains do have an identifiable color quality - a dark blackish stain. Literature to support color? Literature on case study or histories will refer to a blackish stains around the body. Can't give a year or location. Beneke (sp) has published case studies regarding human remains in indoor environments - the color is mentioned. Only one he knows. He has not physically examined the carpet in this case and is not prepared to say what the stain is from. Other qualities of decomp stains? In this case he was going to talk about the smell and texture - greasy stain from body fats. In how many cases were the bodies in a bag - if there is a decomp stain in the carpet and the body was in a bag... In his personal experience - zero.
HHJBP to Witness - when did you arrive at this opinion? Are you going to give us an opinion on the stain in the car in questions?
I think I was attempting to describe what one would typically see where there had been a body in a trunk.
HHJBP - what would you expect to see?
What I would expect to see is shown in the picture. You would expect an obvious decomp stain from body fluid, lots of insect activity, dead insects, migrating maggots....
HHJBP - Is there any variation in those stains because of cleaning?
In my experience and others, if you think it's there, it's not there. It's either there or it's not. Decomp fluid staining is very obvious. When these scense are cleaned, the staining does not clean. He is not aware of any method you could use to remove that stain.
HHJBP - have you ever testified to this in courts before.
I've testified on decomp, but car trunks only this case. No other testimony than this because he has not been asked.
HHJBP - Your field is insects?
Especially those in decompositional remains.
(Signal lost from courtroom)
HHJBP - his evaluation of pictures of the stain?
If it were a decomp stain, there was substantial cleaning - professional cleaning. Decomp stains do not go away easily.
HHJBP - did you share that opinion?
With the defense, yes - shortly after I viewed the photo in 2009.
HHJBP - What did you share?
I said there was nothing I could see that would indicate a decomposing body had been in this vehicle.
HHJBP - Did you include that in your report?
He did not.
HHJBP - Why?
I was speaking specifically to the insects.
HHJBP - Were you told that the Court expected all opinions that one would give to be memorialized so as not to be a surprise to either side.
Yes, at some point.
HHJBP - Were you asked to do an addendum.
I said my first report was preliminary and I have not turned in a final report because I have not seen all the evidence.
HHJBP - Why should I permit that testimony when the defense knew in 2008 and did not disclose that even after the court ordered and we've had numerous conversations about disclosures? It's one thing for him to talk about decompositional fluids and that process, but it is quite evident to have him give an opinion on the stain in the trunk?
JB to Dr. Huntington - did there come a time when I asked you to witness a report. Yes. Was that because of the court order I shared with you? Yes. Did I ask you to issue a report on ALL of your opinions. Yes. Did I ask you to leave anything out? No. Were you asked if you were going to render an opinion as to the stain in THIS car? No. Was it your understanding that you would be speaking of the decomp fluid and the stains that you would expect to see? Yes. I assumed I would be speaking in generalities about what I would or would not expect if there is a body in the trunk.
JB - he is only going to talk about generalities.
JA - Stain identification was not known to the state and JA would have gotten numerous experts regarding the color.
HHJBP - I'm not too concerned about the color of the stain. If it was not a stain, it would not have a color to it. A stain is a discoloration of the original color. That's a logical conclusion that one can come to. HE WILL NOT BE PERMITTED TO TESTIFY TO, SINCE IT WAS NOT DISCLOSED, IS HIS OPINION ABOUT THE STAIN IN THE VEHICLE IN QUESTION; BUT HE CAN TESTIFY TO DECOMP STAINS IN GENERAL - unless someone opens the door where we can drive elephants through the cracks.
Jury coming back (they were out from 10:49 - 11:39)
HHJBP - at some point it may be helpful that any subsequent experts that may appear - I'd like their report.
PROFFER BY JB:
Based on your experience is the stain easily distinguishable. Anyone with experience would be able to look at it and smell it and tell. There are also presumptive tests such as phenolphthalein.
Were you questioned about this study during your depo? Yes.
OBJECTION BY JA - it speaks for itself.
JB - it may depend on the interpretation of questions by counsel.
HHJBP - All I need are his opinions. Either show it to me in his report or his deposition. What opinion is he going to give? Attorneys can then argue whether that was disclosed.
1/28/11 deposition shown to judge. Judge - go ahead
JB - he is asked there about the decomp in trunk relative to his study.
JA - have we finished listening to the opinion of the witness. Obviously he is not qualified to talk about the phenol. I'll wait - counsel is busy texting.
HHJBP - I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR EDITORIAL COMMENTS. LET'S STICK TO THE FACTS. I CARE LESS WHAT MR. BAEZ MAY BE DOING OR NOT DOING. ALL I AM CONCERNED WITH AT THIS TIME IS THE PROFFER AND WHETHER OR NOT IT WAS IN HIS REPORT VS HIS DEPO IS A VIOLATION OF THIS COURT'S ORDER. I DO NOT CARE IF MR. BAEZ IS STANDING ON HIS HEAD, STANDING ON ONE LEG, LETS JUST STICK WITH THE FACTS AND BE PROFESSIONAL. NOW, MR. BAEZ ASK HIM THE QUESTION
JB - If a body was to decompose in a car - what type of fluid, what would you expect to see of the decomp fluid?
The decomp fluid has a blackish staining quality to it. In a car trunk it will seep into the liner and then into the liner underneath. In a day or two, in these temperatures, the body fluids leach rather rapidly due to rupturing of the skin surface3 of the body.
JB - that is what I believe is a slightly expanded answer that he gave in his depo.
JA - It is not even similar to any answer he gave, or opinion he gave. He apparently now wants to state he can identify the fluid compared to other fluids. Not in depo. His statements and opinions of what occurs with decomp fluid is not in his depo or report and completely outside his area of expertise. The only other reference he made to the trunk is at page 32 where he acknowledges even 2 years later detecting the fowel odor.
JA - OBJECT as in violation of court order and outside of expertise.
JB - not outside expertise - Dr. Haskel testified to these things.
HHJBP - refresh my memory as to what Dr. Haskel testified to.
JB - he testified about the different stages of decomp, what happens to the body and the insects and how they relate to decomp.
JA - No objection to testimony of generalities. Objection is to specific talk about stains of decomp. Not discussed in depo.
JB - Dr. Haskel also identified the stain as decomp fluid and the napkins and paper towels were decomp fluid. I don't understand the distinction.
HHJBP - go to page 28 of depo - BOTH OF YOU. Read pages 28 thru 32. After you read, then tell me, both of you (I guess we'll get a tale of 2 cities) as to what this doctor testified in his deposition. Tell me how similar or dsisimilar this was to Dr. Haskel's testimony.
HHJBP - On line 15 of page 28 there is a question - is there any evidence here that one might have cleaned the trunk of decomp - based on insects NO - based on my experience of decomp in a trunk - I don't now that you could clean it up with paper towels. Any evidence of clean up? Paper towel?
JB - I agree court both experts have been questioned thoroughly
JA - Surprise is the witness's claim that he can identify a stain as to whether it is or is not decomp. Change in testimony. Nothing in report or depo to indicate this. Nothing in report about color of decomp. Completely outside his area of expertise. He is an entomologist. Dr. Haskel talked about decomp fluid in napkins. He doesn't recall asking him about the stain or to identify it.
JB - Dr. Haskel testified extensively about the areas of decomp.
HHJBP - pulling Dr. Haskel's testimony up now.
HHJBP - Doctor if you need to stand down, you can. Witness leaves witness stand.
JB - May I assist the court?
HHJBP - You'll get a chance - let me assist myself for now.
JB - referring court to 9:11 a.m. where Dr. Haskel began to discuss the stages of decomp.
(ICA whispering with DCS and CM)
HHJBP wants them to come up and to look at his screen - starting on page 14. YA'LL CAN READ JUST AS WELL AS I CAN. JA, JB and CM at Judge's computer. CM leaves, JB leaves - leaving JA alone and looking confused. JA leaves and HHJBP comes back to the bench.
HHJBP - Anything else? Nothing from defense. Mr. A - nothing about the stain.
HHJBP - Court founds that it does not violate the Court's order. Dr. Haskel talked about decomp. While I'll agree with JA, every opinion is not expressed - the area and subject matter is decomposition and it is not a major earth-shattering opinion and to disallow at this point due to minor inconsistencies would be error Whether the jury finds him to be an expert.... Mr. Baez, don't get too enthused and try to make him into an expert in something he is not If you think there will be other areas of surprise, I will permit you at this time, Mr. Ashton, to question him, since you are saying you did not know which would be the remedy for this.
JA - Specifically the issue of the phenolphthalein test is outside his area of expertise.
HHJBP - you can ask him that.
Witness returns to stand.
HHJBP - state may question.
EXAMINATION BY JA:
Stain identification experience revolves around a paper he publishes regarding the identification of grave soil analysis which is decomp fluid. Stains on carpet or fabrics? My experience is watching and observing decomp of animals and humans on carpets - 20 or 30 times. Carpet colors? I don't know off hand. Will you testify that human decomp stains have a color? Decomp stains do have an identifiable color quality - a dark blackish stain. Literature to support color? Literature on case study or histories will refer to a blackish stains around the body. Can't give a year or location. Beneke (sp) has published case studies regarding human remains in indoor environments - the color is mentioned. Only one he knows. He has not physically examined the carpet in this case and is not prepared to say what the stain is from. Other qualities of decomp stains? In this case he was going to talk about the smell and texture - greasy stain from body fats. In how many cases were the bodies in a bag - if there is a decomp stain in the carpet and the body was in a bag... In his personal experience - zero.
HHJBP to Witness - when did you arrive at this opinion? Are you going to give us an opinion on the stain in the car in questions?
I think I was attempting to describe what one would typically see where there had been a body in a trunk.
HHJBP - what would you expect to see?
What I would expect to see is shown in the picture. You would expect an obvious decomp stain from body fluid, lots of insect activity, dead insects, migrating maggots....
HHJBP - Is there any variation in those stains because of cleaning?
In my experience and others, if you think it's there, it's not there. It's either there or it's not. Decomp fluid staining is very obvious. When these scense are cleaned, the staining does not clean. He is not aware of any method you could use to remove that stain.
HHJBP - have you ever testified to this in courts before.
I've testified on decomp, but car trunks only this case. No other testimony than this because he has not been asked.
HHJBP - Your field is insects?
Especially those in decompositional remains.
(Signal lost from courtroom)
HHJBP - his evaluation of pictures of the stain?
If it were a decomp stain, there was substantial cleaning - professional cleaning. Decomp stains do not go away easily.
HHJBP - did you share that opinion?
With the defense, yes - shortly after I viewed the photo in 2009.
HHJBP - What did you share?
I said there was nothing I could see that would indicate a decomposing body had been in this vehicle.
HHJBP - Did you include that in your report?
He did not.
HHJBP - Why?
I was speaking specifically to the insects.
HHJBP - Were you told that the Court expected all opinions that one would give to be memorialized so as not to be a surprise to either side.
Yes, at some point.
HHJBP - Were you asked to do an addendum.
I said my first report was preliminary and I have not turned in a final report because I have not seen all the evidence.
HHJBP - Why should I permit that testimony when the defense knew in 2008 and did not disclose that even after the court ordered and we've had numerous conversations about disclosures? It's one thing for him to talk about decompositional fluids and that process, but it is quite evident to have him give an opinion on the stain in the trunk?
JB to Dr. Huntington - did there come a time when I asked you to witness a report. Yes. Was that because of the court order I shared with you? Yes. Did I ask you to issue a report on ALL of your opinions. Yes. Did I ask you to leave anything out? No. Were you asked if you were going to render an opinion as to the stain in THIS car? No. Was it your understanding that you would be speaking of the decomp fluid and the stains that you would expect to see? Yes. I assumed I would be speaking in generalities about what I would or would not expect if there is a body in the trunk.
JB - he is only going to talk about generalities.
JA - Stain identification was not known to the state and JA would have gotten numerous experts regarding the color.
HHJBP - I'm not too concerned about the color of the stain. If it was not a stain, it would not have a color to it. A stain is a discoloration of the original color. That's a logical conclusion that one can come to. HE WILL NOT BE PERMITTED TO TESTIFY TO, SINCE IT WAS NOT DISCLOSED, IS HIS OPINION ABOUT THE STAIN IN THE VEHICLE IN QUESTION; BUT HE CAN TESTIFY TO DECOMP STAINS IN GENERAL - unless someone opens the door where we can drive elephants through the cracks.
Jury coming back (they were out from 10:49 - 11:39)
azscr4mbl3r
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no don't throw me in the briar patch please...... talk about car trunk carpet stains all day long... peek the curiosity of the jury they have a can with car trunk stain in evidence let them look at it and decide if it stinks like a dead body in the damn car so be it.
wenwe4
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HHBP are you going to give us a statement about the stain in the Pontiac Sunfire trunk
....
Huntington - expect to see stain in the trunk - obvious stain ....lots insect activity, puparila cases and fragments and maggots ....
HHBP -any variation in those type of stains in things you might expect to see obviously because of cleaning and other process...
Dr.H- if you think it is there or have question....then it is not there.....decomp fluid stain is very obvious.....when people decomp in a house - where stain clean floor or carpets - those not cleaned they are removed...
HHBP - have you ever testified on this in courts before?
Dr. H - not on this particular topic - nobody ever asked me...
HHBP - your field is insects
Dr. H - yes those deal with decomp remains..
HHBP - train or experience what makes you qualified to talk about stain and what you expect to find and how relate to this case
dr. H - forensic entomology with decomp body - knowledge of taphony - decomp products process......
professional cleaning -decomp stains do not go away easy.
HHBP - did you share that opinion with the defense?
Dr. H - yes shortly after review photo - 2008 or 2009.
HHBP - what did you share with them
Dr. H - nothing I can see to indicate to me decomp body in this veh.
HHBP did you include that in your report?
Dr. H - no decomp with insects
HHBP - anything with stain
Dr. H - speaking specific to insects
HHBP - were you told court expected all opinions one would give to be memorialized
Dr. H - at some point yes he was -may have been after submitted report- prelim report would submit final report when all insect evidence look @ - haven't looked @ all evidence no final report done
HHBP - when and who on DT you told info about stain in 2008 or 2009
Dr. H - assume Mr. Baez
HHBP - don't assume - wanna know who
Dr. H -Mr. Baez - he is one I talked to....
HHBP - ok - now why should I permit that testimony when the DT knew back in 2008 and did not disclose that even after court order had numerous conversations about disclosure.....it's one thing for him to talk about decomp fluids and that process but quite evident to have him give opinion about stain in trunk according to him he shared ....
JB - did there come a time you were asked to issue a report -because court order....write down and issue report on all of your findings...yes to all
JB didn't ask to leak things out or put in
were you asked to render opinion in this stain in the car? NO....decomp fluids and stains expect to see in trunk of car if there was a dead body
Dr. H - thought speak in generality what he would expect to see or not
JB - never was our intention ....generality is all talking about.....apologise if court thought we would take that to next level....never our intention
JA - identify stain...ask him about it....numerous expert witness about the color of the stain ...I did not because
HHBP - all stains have color - a stain is a discoloration of natural color - no stain no discolor could not tell there was any stain....not permit to testify to since not disclose is his opinion about the stain....he can talk about it in the depo about decomp stains in general one expects to see or not....unless mistakenly open door to drive elephants thru crack...ok all on same page?
bring jury back in
So how can he have an opinion at all about the stain???/ He can talk about the pig stains until the cows come home, but to say he doesn't think there was ever a decomposing body in ICA's car is WAY OUT OF LINE if he never examined that trunk.
Salem grrrrrrrr
We must not be watching the same trial because JB has been getting admonished by the judge throughout the trial for numerous things. His objections have been overruled numerous times compared to the state.
It's about the law.
Steely Dan
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I'd bet my life on it.
KaylynnCouture
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Well that was an excellent try Baez.
Good God.
Good God.
Eileen730
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darcedarce
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JB thinks his "Can everyone hear me okay?" is so charming.
TortillaChip
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And this is why JA has to fight so hard.
Maybe I am a hard*ss but I do not feel sorry for him.....welcome to the big time Dr scientist!
gibby207
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I really think Judge was heading there slowly and wanted Ashton to approach just as slowly and quietly. LOL
Aedrys
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As the oldest of three kids, I can verify that this is soooooooooooo true. That is exactly what is going on here. JA needs to not go down to JB's level because it only makes JA look bad. HHJP KNOWS that what kind of lawyer JB is, believe me. I think the admonition was his way of saying, "JA, I'm right there with you, but please, don't act like JB. One JB is enough in this courtroom."
KenoshaKid
All the darkness in the world cannot put out a sin
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Back to bugs in the closed container of a trunk.
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