IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #15

[jjenny]

That's all true and noone would argue that point. BUT if you are just a witness on the disappearance of your friend and you have nothing to hide, why would you hire a lawyer? I understand why JW would hire a lawyer, being the boyfriend who is almost always a POI. I may also understand why JR hired a lawyer being the last person with LS. But why would CR hire a lawyer? Does that have anything to do with the claimed "memory loss"?

CR is a POI who was one of the last people to see the missing girl. I don't see anything strange about him hiring a lawyer.

 

[epiphany]

Smallwood wants to have it three ways. It's business as usual. They need mommy and daddy to continue to be willing to shell out the monthly checks for the cute apartments with the Manhattan neighborhood names---they need to assert that they are cooperative with BPD in the rare event of a tenant's/student's-son or daughter's disappearance; SW may also need to demonstrate to the students that they will try to provide a little warning/alert (if possible) prior to BPD's entry onto the premises so the students will continue to rent/live at Smallwood; and SW may need to be somewhat conciliatory to BPD considering what likely goes on within the premises of SW since they are in the business of renting to college students:

BPD arrived at Smallwood at 8:00 PM:

http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=81855

Parker said that a SW employee was on the scene, and would not open the door nor provide an explanation as to why access was being denied with a warrant in hand.

http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=81854

Reno said that a property manager could be there in 10 minutes with a key, but BPD did not wait.

http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=81966

Looks like it took longer than 10 minutes. The BPD executed the search warrant at about 8:30 PM.

http://idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=81852

SW sent the Indiana Student Daily the following:

“Smallwood Plaza...respects the decision to obtain these hard drives as quickly as possible...The search for Lauren Spierer takes precedence..."

http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=81855

 

[northsider]

That's all true and noone would argue that point. BUT if you are just a witness on the disappearance of your friend and you have nothing to hide, why would you hire a lawyer? I understand why JW would hire a lawyer, being the boyfriend who is almost always a POI. I may also understand why JR hired a lawyer being the last person with LS. But why would CR hire a lawyer? Does that have anything to do with the claimed "memory loss"?

And why did DR hire a lawyer? That's the one I find the most perplexing.

 

[VeryVeritas]

I do understand why someone would want a lawyer if they were with somebody who disappeared, even if that someone was innocent. After all, it's not like innocent people haven't been wrongly convicted.

On the one hand it certainly is everyone's right to remain innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. At the same time, WE can be suspicious of a group of people who all run for Lawyers and the exits instead of cooperating to find someone whom they were all with the night that person vanished. Even more, the fact that so far ALL of these POI's are MALE and the missing person is a very small female.

I had some catching up to do on the last thread and saw some interesting ideas about LS moving around, say going to JR's, leaving and then going back. And then more on the idea that she never made it there in the first place.

Also JJenny you had mentioned some additional reasons why she could have been disposed of... for example dying after perhaps someone had sex with her(willingly or not, under the infulence of something or not, etc...)
That would be very hard to explain.

So, my mind is going... if something happened and she never made it out of the gravel lot, What could it be that would all cause all of these people to say otherwise? So far the only things I could come up with were some accident but they would cover up because of something in her system that would incriminate the others in various ways or the others believed it was an accident but didn't want to see one of the group go down for murder.

Another scenario came to mind in all of this...

What if... CR/LS exited the Alley Now Mystery Man is there (could he be DR? AA? Mystery Guest from Michigan? ) Perhaps as indicted by someone upthread CR walked ahead since he was close to his apt and LS became distracted in a conversation. Perhaps she said she was going to head back home... and he just said... whatever... and got there and crashed in bed. Then... as someone suggested... something else happens... perhaps she is out over on N. College at 3:38. There are ways to walk from the Gravel lot out to N. College without going back through the Alley, or to 11th Correct? I had hoped that btown would update that map to include the 3:38 Witness account... that witness would have had a direction she was moving and the direction she saw LS and MysteryMan moving... some arrows and dotted lines around the duration of the sighting could be useful. I really don't have a good sense of how long that encounter lasted... 10 seconds... 30 seconds... 3 minutes? AA was in the gravel lot/ Alley area at 3:00am Did he see Mystery Man? Did AA see anyone at all? So if something went wrong while Mystery Man (or for that matter someone else) was with LS, and they brought her to CR's for help (because maybe they knew CR and saw LS with him just previously... but MB answers the door and says CR is passed out... So then if JR is also there (doesn't have to be because he was involved earlier and that may have caused what happened) they could have made the pact on their simple stories. A twist on this is again that maybe this mystery man didn't bring her up, but left her out in the lot or in a vehicle and went to tell the others what happened. Now, it's been said that LE says they know the mystery man and he is not involved. To me this says they seem to know more about what happened than they are revealing. Another twist... what if CR/MB/JR did not know she was missing until the next day but realized they were all culpable for various reasons? For example, they knew she ingested something, and/or that she was with someone ELSE that they all know and need to cover for.
To suggest that the 3:38 witness has her time wrong... means that they know the mystery man was somewhere else around that time and have verified that. Maybe he even is LE!

My gut is telling me that something happened to her fairly quickly after passing through that Alley. (I wish I knew how far that cam can see outside of the Alley) Because of her purse being around there, there is the possibility of a brief struggle, a fall or her sudden unconsciousness. Since CR conveniently still has amnesia he may have witnessed this event or been part of it... yet... exactly how and why MB and JR would cover for him is a stretch. It had to be brief because just a few minutes later AA is picking up the purse, and as far as we know he didn't see or hear anything. That also tells me that CR and LS were moving swiftly and LS was still ok at that point. Still she should know if she dropped her small purse. To me, that seems like she was unconscious. I really want to know the Alley Cam range, and how close that purse was found outside of that cam range. Perhaps she hit the gravel with her feet and it hurt so she hopped on CR's back? Would they be playful like that? Then if her hands were around his neck or shoulders she couldn't hold her purse and it may have easily bounced right out of a pocket or if it were clipped on just popped right off. I'm really wondering if the cam caught a piece of that. Otherwise... the purse being there seems really suspicious then. it sat there maybe 10 to 12 minutes before AA picked it up. It's not clear how long AA was in the area.... but seems reasonable that he would have been arriving from a vehicle in the lot or coming from Morton or 11th, or perhaps he has friends in another apt too.
As such AA should have been in that lot a few minutes prior to finding the purse. So perhaps there was just a couple minutes between AA's arrival and when CR and LS passed by. I find it strange that he didn't see them because the timing was really close. If he didn't see CR and LS, then perhaps he saw someone else? And why would AA be off the hook?
If LS passed out and CR stumbled home it may have been the next day before they all heard about her missing... What if AA is involved in her disappearance, but these other guys cooked up their story initially because of their culpability (ie drugs, negligence, etc...) Any Chance that AA is the Mystery Man? I recall early on that he was called "A Dark Man" does AA match the description? I hadn't considered before that CR/MB/JR could be lying to protect each other but that they didn't know what happened to her... so far it's been assumed that at least JR may have known. But what if none of them saw her after the gravel lot and had no idea what happened to her? Why would AA put the purse on the rail if he were involved? AI'm wondering if he could see he was on camera at that point. So if he were to just take the purse it might look strange. I wonder if he went to LE when LS turned up missing OR... if he was caught on cam and LE went to him??

 

[cluciano63]

Hire all the lawyers you want-you can still meet with LE and answer their questions.

 

[TonyGatto]

And why did DR hire a lawyer? That's the one I find the most perplexing.

I understand what you're saying. Maybe simply because he received that phone call from someone who is a top POI.

 

[Jupiter812]

As an lawyer who knows a lot about criminal law and procedure, I can assure you there are plenty of good reasons why someone would hire a lawyer regardless of their guilt. It is just a smart move and, believe me, there are MANY people who did nothing wrong and came forward to speak to the police and were rewarded by a lot of legal trouble. This is not a comment on anyone's guilt or innocence, just weighing in and saying they should not be judged because they hired lawyers.

What "MANY people"' are you referring to?

 

[VeryVeritas]

And why did DR hire a lawyer? That's the one I find the most perplexing.

I was wondering about the 4:15 call to DR, and now you say he has a lawyer too... amazing. So, perhaps DR was at JR's and LS went with DR, but JR is protecting DR. Where does DR live?

 

[Jupiter812]

And why did DR hire a lawyer? That's the one I find the most perplexing.

So he doesn't say or do anything stupid.

 

[jjenny]

Since DR lives in Smallwood, he couldn't have gone anywhere without being on camera.

 

[bx2]

And why did DR hire a lawyer? That's the one I find the most perplexing.

Has he? I know he retained Ron Chapman (who is also MB's attorney) for an unrelated case prior to this.

 

[VeryVeritas]

I know this is a gruesome thought, but I wonder if LE has checked out any of the sewer entries in the streets in that area.

I've been asking that for weeks. No one has yet confirmed a search there, but they don't talk about searches. So a body would be pretty well decomposed by now if it hasn't been thoroughly searched.

 

[Jupiter812]

Smallwood wants to have it three ways. It's business as usual. They need mommy and daddy to continue to be willing to shell out the monthly checks for the cute apartments with the Manhattan neighborhood names---they need to assert that they are cooperative with BPD in the rare event of a tenant's/student's-son or daughter's disappearance; SW may also need to demonstrate to the students that they will try to provide a little warning/alert (if possible) prior to BPD's entry onto the premises so the students will continue to rent/live at Smallwood; and SW may need to be somewhat conciliatory to BPD considering what likely goes on within the premises of SW since they are in the business of renting to college students:

BPD arrived at Smallwood at 8:00 PM:

http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=81855

Parker said that a SW employee was on the scene, and would not open the door nor provide an explanation as to why access was being denied with a warrant in hand.

http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=81854

Reno said that a property manager could be there in 10 minutes with a key, but BPD did not wait.

http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=81966

Looks like it took longer than 10 minutes. The BPD executed the search warrant at about 8:30 PM.

http://idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=81852

SW sent the Indiana Student Daily the following:

“Smallwood Plaza...respects the decision to obtain these hard drives as quickly as possible...The search for Lauren Spierer takes precedence..."

http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=81855

You pretty much nailed it. The comments of what it's like to live there sure are descriptive. :crazy:

 

[northsider]

I understand what you're saying. Maybe simply because he received that phone call from someone who is a top POI.

That could be, yes. It just drives home how unclear DR's role in all of this is.

Isn't DR's lawyer the same as CR (i.e., Saltzmann)? Random occurrence?

Also, if all these people have lawyers, why didn't HT get a lawyer? Not only is she closer to LS than anyone in the case except maybe JW, but she also has to have seen all her male acquaintances in this case lawyering up.

EDIT (me) - My mistake, DR hired Ron Chapman, who is MB's attorney. Still would like to know whether that was a random occurrence.

 

[Btown]

O I had hoped that btown would update that map to include the 3:38 Witness account... that witness would have had a direction she was moving and the direction she saw LS and MysteryMan moving... some arrows and dotted lines around the duration of the sighting could be useful. I really don't have a good sense of how long that encounter lasted... 10 seconds... 30 seconds... 3 minutes?

You would have to get TG to post those details so I could update the map.

All I know about it is the basics:

3:38am - 10th & College Ave.
POI description.
Female bar manager - not Jakes.
LE indicate its a red herring.

 

[VeryVeritas]

As we are going back to the first days -- something that has always bothered me.
The whole business ABOUT police having to use A battering ram to get into Smallwood.

Police say they asked for the video. Smallwood refused, saying they'd like to see a search warrant. Even when the search warrant is produced -- nobody from Smallwood is on hand with a key, so cops break down the door. Then the spokesman for Smallwood puts out a self-serving statement saying that they are doing all they can to help police. Qualters is then asked why this Kabuki dance had to take place in order to get the video hard drives. He says firmly that he doesn't know the answer to that.

Have you ever heard of a business refusing to give cops access to surveillance in a criminal investigation...unless of course the business is a target? When have you heard the deli owner, that gas station or apartment building refusing such a request. Was it just this case that they demanded a warrant? If there had been a multiple shooting with eight dead in a hallway, would they comply without a warrant? What about a terrorist attack?

THIS WAS SIMPLY TO FIND OUT INFORMATION ABOUT A MISSING GIRL WHO HAPPENED TO LIVE IN THEIR BUILDING! And nobody presses the issue.

Agreed TG, And didn't they also use the Press Conference to make a big deal about CR being there and how he was banned etc? But they at the same time didn't seem to care that someone attacked CR on their premises?? This led me to the assumption that one of the group that confronted CR IS connected to Smallwood. And that would have explained why Smallwood management may have resisted - they may have initially thought this involved the attack on CR and thought CR filed a complaint. Just a hunch... I really would like to know WHO was there confronting CR and WHO hit him and WHY. I find the lack of public knowledge of these facts to be very curious too...

 

[Btown]

I've been asking that for weeks. No one has yet confirmed a search there

Yes you have.
I don't know the answer either.

The question always makes me think of something gruesome about one of the pics I took of the construction across the street from 5 North apts right outside JR's apartment.

I see the cut in the asphalt road and the gravel backfill, the new sewer pipe
and wonder...

Perhaps Old-Time-Local knows if that cut was there that day. IIRC he searched that area early on.

 

[Lovejac]

With all due respect to astrologists, you dont need astrology to conclude this. I have concluded the same, based on the evidence, without using astrological charts.

With all due respect to you, you don't know what I, or other people need to conclude what might have happened to Lauren.

That's why this is the best crime forum. We can share our opinion and be respectful to one another. KWIM

 

[epiphany]

White is critical of aspects of the dearth of information made public, the use of volunteer searchers who have been "traipsing" through potential crime scene areas, the wait before involving the State Police -- nine days after the disappearance -- and the prominent role Spierer's parents have played in the investigation.

http://www.indystar.com/article/201...nswers?odyssey=tab|mostpopular|text|FRONTPAGE

Did White (former Director of Marion County Emergency Management, who left that appointment to devote himself to teach a new masters and certification program at IUPU-I shortly after new Indianapolis Public Safety Director Frank Straub took office) leave anything out?

Anything BPD did do right in this investigation according to White?

...Straub said in a statement. "We look forward to a continued working relationship with Jim and IUPUI as we work to make public safety job No. 1 in Indianapolis and in our local universities.”

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/22584870/detail.html

 

[Walker]

That could be, yes. It just drives home how unclear DR's role in all of this is.

Isn't DR's lawyer the same as CR (i.e., Saltzmann)? Random occurrence?

Also, if all these people have lawyers, why didn't HT get a lawyer? Not only is she closer to LS than anyone in the case except maybe JW, but she also has to have seen all her male acquaintances in this case lawyering up.

EDIT (me) - My mistake, DR hired Ron Chapman, who is MB's attorney. Still would like to know whether that was a random occurrence.

Maybe she did consult an attorney but he is more discrete than the others.