Cause of Death - Charles and Braden Powell **Warning-Graphic Thread**

[DLT88]

OMG, I just read the news. I'm in shock. As if what Josh did to his sons wasn't bad enough already.

I'm in tears. That the boys did not die from the injuries their father inflicted on them is just heartbreaking.

Oh dear God, why?

I now have zero doubt Josh was a monster. A living demon interested only in how much pain he could inflict on others.

Me, too! I'm shaking!!!! How can a father be so violent to two little innocent loving boy??!!! I'm horrified. Josh was a SERIAL MURDERER. Maybe he didn't even start with Susan since he like to brag that mines are excellent places to hide bodies. May he ROT for everything. Those poor little boys. Have to remember, as with Zahra, these boys are NOT suffering now and are full of joy and were greeted with a great love and they saw the sparkling face of their mother who is holding both of them right now.

 

[jjenny]

Believe me, the house blew up. The gas can exploded. Did you read any of the headlines?
If he didn't blow it up then why did the neighbors report feeling earthquake like tremors?

Well I actually read beyond the headlines. He set a fire. Carbon monoxide poisoning is a standard cause of death in a fire. If they died in an explosion then they would have had blunt force trauma and injuries for cause of death consistent with an explosion. Their cause of death is exactly the cause of death in fire victims.

 

[Cubby]

This just makes me nauseous and teary at the same time. It just keeps getting worse. My one hope, when I read about the house explosion, was that the boys went quickly and didn't suffer a moment's worth of fear. That hope was deflated with this newest revelation. I hope Josh Powell is in the lowest, hottest level of hell. What an evil, twisted "human being" he was. He's amongst the lowest of the low... my heart just aches for those babies...

My thoughts exactly. Thank you for putting into words what I wasn't able to express myself.

 

[sherbetjello]

I'm just now reading this thread, and I can't even make it to page two of the thread because the statement from the Powells defending his actions has me so mad I can't see straight.

 

[annalia]

I'm wondering how he corralled both boys to be able to do what he did. I would think that if the one that was hit second saw his brother being hit, he would run. I just can't wrap my mind around all this.

It's so difficult to even write about this thinking about the suffering he inflicted on the boys.

It happened so quickly from the time they went inside until the fire. Could he have swung the ax as soon as he locked the door, hitting Charlie first, Braden tried to run and was hit twice, then he dragged the boys bodies, while they were still alive, to where they were found?

 

[sherbetjello]

1 - This was a Sunday. Do government case workers usually work on the weekends? They don't in my state.

In one of the threads here about the fire, it was said that the person taking the children was not affiliated with the gov but hired as an outside resource. Or something to that affect, really sorry I can't think of good words at this moment.

I feel really bad for this woman today, because I have little doubt now that she didn't just witness the fire happen but the screams from within the home, too.

This is madness.

 

[twall]

Well I actually read beyond the headlines. He set a fire. Carbon monoxide poisoning is a standard cause of death in a fire. If they died in an explosion then they would have had blunt force trauma and injuries for cause of death consistent with an explosion. Their cause of death is exactly the cause of death in fire victims.

I never said their COD was not accurate.
You said the house did not blow up, or explode, when that is exactly what it did.
It blew the roof off!

"All the walls in the house were on fire, almost immediately," neighbor Ryan Mickle told CNN affiliate KIRO, adding that the blast "shook my whole house."

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-02-05/...al-worker-josh-powell-house-collapse?_s=PM:US

 

[Quiche]

He broke their necks, imo, so they couldn't escape. If they died of carbon monoxide poisoning, that means they were alive in the fire.

At first I thought the "gas" smell was natural gas, but are we talking gasoline? Or maybe it was both? That would explain the rapid combustion and multiple explosions.

The hatchet (rather than axe) makes me wonder if that was Susan's murder weapon as well. With the hatchet, much more physical force would be needed to kill with, but not if your aim was to incapacitate and leave to suffer and wonder (as in: Mommy in the trunk). I wonder how sharp it had been honed to be? I bet there is a file found amongst the ruins.

Josh lived a coward and died a coward. :dervish: The demons below have a new plaything, I'm sure they'll have a field day with this punk.
:devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil:

MOO

 

[mamamia54]

This entire thing has me shocked into silence.

 

[jjenny]

No, I think the smell of gas was gasoline, not natural gas.

 

[DLT88]

I think he inflicted the injuries to punish them for talking.

The reason I think you are right (and I'm shaking as I write this) is that the murder was personal. The choice of a hatchet has got to the worst way to try and kill someone and to cause the most fear and suffering. It was to punish. Josh was a sadist. He wanted them to suffer and for that he will pay with his soul. They are not suffering now -- but he IS which is how it should be. Death did not end his suffering because his soul is in horrible torment being locked to the earth plane and having to reside on the lowest realms of hell where the beings torture each other.

HOW COULD THEY NOT PROTECT THESE BOYS?! Just how BIG of a sign did they need that something horrible was going to happen and this man was extremely unstable and a high suspect of his wife's murder?!! Not only that, he apparently drove around with her body in the trunk while he two sons rode along with it. And they said, "if only we knew" . OH PLEASE!

 

[Paige SC]

1 & 2 - You can find the answers in this article
http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/crime-law/caseworker-who-witness-explosion-powell-home-beyon/nHWbb/

3 - Sorry, don't know, I'm not a medical professional!

4. Watch Papa's video posted here:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Josh Powell's House in WA blows up - Thread #2

Thanks! I understand what the case worker is saying, I'm just having a difficult time with her account (never mind the fact it was on a Sunday - Superbowl Sunday) I read the other posts and I see where I'm not alone in my thoughts. If a house explodes or erupts into flames, the cause of death isn't smoke inhalation. The house wasn't rigged with explosives and smoke inhalation takes time. You can't have it both ways. The coroner was obviously able to make a determination regarding the cause of death which means their bodies had to VERY well intact in order to note the external (neck) injuries.. as well as the soft tissue of the lungs. Based on the images and media reports, one could only conclude there would be nothing left except charred remains. I do not believe we have all the details and while I will reserve judgement until we do, my "gut" tells me someone dropped the ball.

Anyone have an overhead view of the house/area? How far away was the case worker when she called for help? Was she on the porch, her car, where exactly, in relation to the house? The kids would have had to BOLT out her car and RUN into the house giving JP the opportunity to lock her out - then attack them - then light a match. While I'm sure the kids may have wanted to see their dad, I don't see them racing each other inside the house leaving the case worker in the dust.

I keep thinking of the tragedy involving Dr. William Petit's wife and children and the window of opportunity that was missed (due to the time it takes for a fire caused by gasoline & a match to gain some momentum). I understand the dwellings are vastly different but the cause of the fire(s) were not.

Many, many questions. Too many. I hope we get a full account that fits the details of what we know happened. It seems as though JP was able to ANTICIPATE the boys would leave the case worker behind. How did he know? What if she had gone in the house before the boys?

 

[jjenny]

No, the cause of death is consistent with a fire. Carbon monoxide poisoning is a principal cause of death in fire victims.
If it were an explosion I presume cause of death would be blunt force trauma.
The bodies have to be in relatively good condition since the coroner was able to figure out that wounds to neck/head didn't kill the children.
But I also don't think that timeline of "moments" is making much sense.

 

[Paige SC]

In one of the threads here about the fire, it was said that the person taking the children was not affiliated with the gov but hired as an outside resource. Or something to that affect, really sorry I can't think of good words at this moment.

I feel really bad for this woman today, because I have little doubt now that she didn't just witness the fire happen but the screams from within the home, too.

This is madness.

This begs even more questions (re; outside resource) ???

I am quite sure you are correct about what she heard & saw. My question is why she isn't sharing it? I am not comfortable with her statements made in various articles. Not at all.

 

[annalia]

Thanks! I understand what the case worker is saying, I'm just having a difficult time with her account (never mind the fact it was on a Sunday - Superbowl Sunday) I read the other posts and I see where I'm not alone in my thoughts. If a house explodes or erupts into flames, the cause of death isn't smoke inhalation. The house wasn't rigged with explosives and smoke inhalation takes time. You can't have it both ways. The coroner was obviously able to make a determination regarding the cause of death which means their bodies had to VERY well intact in order to note the external (neck) injuries.. as well as the soft tissue of the lungs. Based on the images and media reports, one could only conclude there would be nothing left except charred remains. I do not believe we have all the details and while I will reserve judgement until we do, my "gut" tells me someone dropped the ball.

Anyone have an overhead view of the house/area? How far away was the case worker when she called for help? Was she on the porch, her car, where exactly, in relation to the house? The kids would have had to BOLT out her car and RUN into the house giving JP the opportunity to lock her out - then attack them - then light a match. While I'm sure the kids may have wanted to see their dad, I don't see them racing each other inside the house leaving the case worker in the dust.

I keep thinking of the tragedy involving Dr. William Petit's wife and children and the window of opportunity that was missed (due to the time it takes for a fire caused by gasoline & a match to gain some momentum). I understand the dwellings are vastly different but the cause of the fire(s) were not.

Many, many questions. Too many. I hope we get a full account that fits the details of what we know happened. It seems as though JP was able to ANTICIPATE the boys would leave the case worker behind. How did he know? What if she had gone in the house before the boys?

My bolding

It was reported that she was on her way back to the car to call supervisors when the house exploded. I don't think it was that they boys left her in the dust, they ran ahead. All it would take was for her to be a step or two behind them for JP to pull them in and lock the door on her.

And it could have all happened very quickly, these were two very small boys, it wouldn't have taken much for him to overpower them. Attacking them and lighting a match in a house that had already been doused with all that gasoline didn't have to take very long.

JMHO

 

[jjenny]

My bolding

It was reported that she was on her way back to the car to call supervisors when the house exploded. I don't think it was that they boys left her in the dust, they ran ahead. All it would take was for her to be a step or two behind them for JP to pull them in and lock the door on her.

And it could have all happened very quickly, these were two very small boys, it wouldn't have taken much for him to overpower them. Attacking them and lighting a match in a house that had already been doused with all that gasoline didn't have to take very long.

JMHO

All the e-mails and voice mails appears to have been send before the fire. If it truly taken moments or minutes after the children showed up then he clearly would have to send e-mails and voice mails before the children showed up. It seems to me like that could have ruined his plans but what do I know.

 

[annalia]

This begs even more questions (re; outside resource) ???

I am quite sure you are correct about what she heard & saw. My question is why she isn't sharing it? I am not comfortable with her statements made in various articles. Not at all.

Why isn't she sharing it with who, the media? It sounds like she did speak to officials.

We can only imagine how traumatized she must be, can't blame her for not speaking to the media.

JMHO

 

[wenwe4]

I'm having a difficult time with the timeline and details !?

1 - This was a Sunday. Do government case workers usually work on the weekends? They don't in my state.

2 - Is it SOP for 'supervised visitation' to occur at the home of the parent who is being supervised? Is this a discretionary call on behalf of the case worker/judge ? If so, why was this allowed?

3 - If the kids were attacked with a hatchet first and then the house suddenly 'erupted into a ball of flames', wouldn't they have died of burns/trauma instead of smoke inhalation?

4- I understand cause/effect of gas and a match but rarely does a house explode in the blink of an eye (like it does in the movies.)

I'm just having a hard time with the information that's been reported thus far and would like to know more about the case worker and the EXACT details of his/her story.

1) This was not a CPS government Social Worker, CPS contracted another agency to do the supervised visits and that person is the one who transported the children. Those visit supervisors must offer flexible visit days and times to work with parents work schedules. It is very common that parents have visits on Sundays (especially if they work fulltime). This contracted visit supervisor did exactly as she was supposed to do. CPS was complying with a court order. . . . they have no authority to override a Judges order for visitation in the home.

2) Judge ordered visits in the home after Josh complained about having visits at the visitation center (contracted agency center) with other families around due to his high notariety in this case. He effectively argued to the court that he deserved more privacy during his visits and was granted that per court order.

3) See other posters comments . . . carbon monoxide/smoke inhallation is what ultimately killed them . . . the hatchet cuts and burns were also noted but not the cause of death.

4) House burned violently . . . windows blew out . . .

I am also very curious about the exact time line of events.
He also send a bunch of e-mails, voice mails. When was he doing all that? If before the children showed up, a very risky move that could have ended up ruining his plans.

Kids had a scheduled time to arrive and visit supervisors are trained to be on time and let the parents know if they are running late. He knew exactly (within a few minutes) of their arrival time. Also it takes a few minutes to get the kids out of seatbelts and take them both up to the door. Josh could have sent them as soon as he saw visit supervisor show up.

Thanks! I understand what the case worker is saying, I'm just having a difficult time with her account (never mind the fact it was on a Sunday - Superbowl Sunday) I read the other posts and I see where I'm not alone in my thoughts. If a house explodes or erupts into flames, the cause of death isn't smoke inhalation. The house wasn't rigged with explosives and smoke inhalation takes time. You can't have it both ways. The coroner was obviously able to make a determination regarding the cause of death which means their bodies had to VERY well intact in order to note the external (neck) injuries.. as well as the soft tissue of the lungs. Based on the images and media reports, one could only conclude there would be nothing left except charred remains. I do not believe we have all the details and while I will reserve judgement until we do, my "gut" tells me someone dropped the ball.

Anyone have an overhead view of the house/area? How far away was the case worker when she called for help? Was she on the porch, her car, where exactly, in relation to the house? The kids would have had to BOLT out her car and RUN into the house giving JP the opportunity to lock her out - then attack them - then light a match. While I'm sure the kids may have wanted to see their dad, I don't see them racing each other inside the house leaving the case worker in the dust.

I keep thinking of the tragedy involving Dr. William Petit's wife and children and the window of opportunity that was missed (due to the time it takes for a fire caused by gasoline & a match to gain some momentum). I understand the dwellings are vastly different but the cause of the fire(s) were not.

Many, many questions. Too many. I hope we get a full account that fits the details of what we know happened.

Regarding the children going into the house before the case worker . . . that is exactly how they are trained to follow the children into the home (lest you would be leaving children unattended outside of the home where something terrible could possibly happen).

I have included the link to verify this was not a CPS government worker but a contracted visit supervisor who typically works weekends/evenings, etc. around parent work schedules and foster/kin schedules as well as the kids schedules (ie: school/daycare/sports).

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2017435088_dshs06m.htm

 

[MarthaM]

I thought it was reported that the explosions that were heard were the gas cans exploding and the windows blowing out from the fire. I didn't hear anything about the house itself exploding.

Anyway, I think JP was all about control, and on Sunday he took his power over the kids to the nth degree. He may have told the boys they had to do exactly what he said so that they could see Mommy again, and they would have. I can't picture either of them trying to run or get away against that. The ME should be able to tell whether the blows were inflicted while they were standing or laying down; my thought when I first heard about this is that he had them lie down and then he struck them quickly.

 

[annalia]

All the e-mails and voice mails appears to have been send before the fire. If it truly taken moments or minutes after the children showed up then he clearly would have to send e-mails and voice mails before the children showed up. It seems to me like that could have ruined his plans but what do I know.

My bolding

Not necessarily, it takes a minute to send off emails. They could have been written and saved and sent when he saw the car come up, or sent when he knew they were on their way. No one would have been close enough to stop anything, and it's doubtful that everyone was on their computer ready to receive the email at the exact moment he sent them.

JMHO