trial thread: 3/28/2012

[Hello_Kitty]

If I understand the Crown correctly, the same will apply for MTR.

He will get the same sentence whether he was the killer or not.

JMO

If he's found guilty of only helping clean up the crime scene, I don't think.

Or if they can prove he didn't know TS was being kidnapped.

 

[Hello_Kitty]

Man you rock! I looked on the Google Streetscape and zoomed around - no dumpsters out the front ... do I need to go down there tomorrow and drive around back lol? I could maybe take a photo of the dumpster?

It is a very strange little (well, not that little) store - there are Elvis busts, earrings, candy cigarettes .... hats, whatever you can think of. The guy that owns is is very nice - so I could see him being more than agreeable to someone wanting to use his washroom. There is a pizza store, I think it is just takeout, and the little restaurant at the end would have been closed for the evening by that time.

Fast access from the plaza - straight shot, fast access back to the 401 ... I have no clue why LE didn't zero in on this place???

It amazes me that if this is the place TLM was talking about and that you were able to find it and LE couldn't... hope they are reading this

 

[swedie]

I have been lurking for a while, wanting to post but had a difficult time gathering my thoughts. I figured I will just put my two cents out there no matter how unorganized it may be. I would like to stress from the get-go this is my opinion. In MTR audio interview with the police he said that TLM was a friend and almost scoffed at the officer asking if they were more than friends. IMO TLM did consider MTR her boyfriend or intimate partner of some kind as friends usually don’t get hotel rooms together. You don’t need to demonstrate public signs of affection in order to be a couple, many married couples walk around without holding hands , etc (no marriage jokes). There seems to be a focus on the physical appearance of MTR past girlfriends, I propose that the physical attributes may not have been as important as the psychological ones. Seeking out women who were looking for love, who had a need to be filled and thrived on the attention. Perhaps MTR had the ability to sense the type of man they were seeking and be that man. I am sure we all know someone who has compromised their own beliefs due to the blindness called love and how far someone will go, will depend on how strong they are psychologically.

The evidence that we know of so far puts MTR car in and around all areas of importance. MTR used his bank card, went to Timmies, etc all on video, as well as the cellphone being used to check voice mail. TLM really has only changed her story on who actually did the killing. Pretty much everything still supports that MR was as much of a part of the situation as TLM if not more so and we still don’t have all the evidence.

When a young child is tortured mentally by being held against their will, sexually assaulted, beaten and eventually murdered those responsible should be held fully responsible. It should not be about loop holes and legal wrangling, it should be about accountability, about justice for the child and the family. It should be about preventing future type crimes from happening, as people with the mental capacity to commit such crimes do not learn a lesson by being caught, they learn to how to improve their crimes and beat the system. My hope is that justice is served in the truest sense of the word, by the sentence being based on the crime, not the loopholes.

:tyou::welcome::wagon: Blueginger! Welcome and thank you for your well thought out post. I couldn't agree with you more. I want justice for Tori and her family. The only way we can give them justice is to put those responsible for Tori's demise away in jail, away from society, so they may never harm another innocent child or person ever again. JMHO, there are many victims because of MR, mainly Tori's family but there are others devastated by his lies and behaviours.

My honest opinion is this, if MR wasn't guilty, he would not be sitting where he has been for the almost last three years. At this time I do not care about all the other wrongly convicted individuals. This trial is solely about MR. Obviously the evidence weighs like tons against him and so far the Crown has done a fantastic job of showing it.

They have shown TLM and MR were together, acted together and took this precious little girl from the life she was suppose to have with her loved ones. I am going to give credit to the jurors because I believe they will see the truth of what happened, and who was responsible, not what the defense will try and pull through those loopholes. They are wanting the same as us, JUSTICE FOR VICTORIA! :moo:

VICTORIA is the Latin word for 'victory' or 'conquer'. :angel:

 

[flipflop]

It amazes me that if this is the place TLM was talking about and that you were able to find it and LE couldn't... hope they are reading this

I wish they would release the sketch that was made of the car wash that she described.

 

[Ardy]

For the most part IMO common sense tells you that when someone destroys evidence and hides a child's body they are most likely ___________. Fill in the blank.:twocents:

Guilty of a crime?

Trying to hide their involvement in a crime?

Trying to hide the fact someone they were with, killed someone else they were with, while you were weren't there...........and then threatens to name you as a co-conspirator.

More than one choice could fill in the blank.

 

[dilbert]

The Crown must prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that MR acted with a guilty mind.

http://www.ojen.ca/resource/935

Generally speaking, for a person to be found guilty of a criminal offence he or she must have committed an illegal act (actus reus) and had the required state of mind (mens rea) for the criminal offence. The Crown must prove both elements of the offence, the actus reus and the mens rea, beyond a reasonable doubt.

http://www.canadafaq.ca/criminal+law+in+canada/

Under the Criminal Code of Canada, criminal offences require that the prosecuting body (the Crown) provides proof that there was criminal conduct, defined as Actus Reus. In addition, there must be evidence for a criminal state of mind (Mens Rea) beyond any reasonable doubt. Each offense is clearly defined as a specific act, carried out within specific circumstances and with certain negative consequences that follow from the wrongdoing.

The Mens Rea element of the crime is important in that it denotes clear intent on the part of the accused to perform the criminal act. The crime has been committed regardless of the possible outcome of his or her actions.

When all elements of the offence can be proven beyond reasonable doubt, conviction can still be avoided if suitable positive defense can be raised. In some cases, the circumstances can justify and excuse the accused for his or her actions partially or in full. Such defenses are pretty similar to those recognized in other common law jurisdictions and include necessity, intoxication, and duress, among others. Partial defense can also be provided in some circumstances such as, for instance, provocation.

 

[Hello_Kitty]

Marcia McMillan on CTVNC just said that the shoes they found was confirmed by MCClintic to belong to Tori Stafford. I hope she's going to correct herself.

 

[roseofsharon]

Guilty of a crime?

Trying to hide their involvement in a crime?

Trying to hide the fact someone they were with, killed someone else they were with, while you were weren't there...........and then threatens to name you as a co-conspirator.

More than one choice could fill in the blank.

Where is the proof that MTR wasn't there??

 

[daisy.faithfull]

The Crown must prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that MR acted with a guilty mind.

http://www.ojen.ca/resource/935



http://www.canadafaq.ca/criminal+law+in+canada/

Do you remember that segment of Connections with the lawyer that said that?

Well, he also said that the jurors could consider a verdict of manslaughter. That kinda threw me for a loop because I've always thought that the defendant can only be found guilty of the crime they are charged with, in MRTs case first degree murder. He wasn't charged with manslaughter as well was he?

 

[flipflop]

I realize why LE keeps certain info close to the vest during these types of investigations.

However, asking for information, such as

- anyone finding shoes north of guelph
-anyone that could identify this carwash while releasing the sketch
-anyone that could identify the house with the laneway across the road releasing the sketch

could have helped this investigation to bring evidence in and to bring closure sooner than the 103 days that it took.

 

[dilbert]

Do you remember that segment of Connections with the lawyer that said that?

Well, he also said that the jurors could consider a verdict of manslaughter. That kinda threw me for a loop because I've always thought that the defendant can only be found guilty of the crime they are charged with, in MRTs case first degree murder. He wasn't charged with manslaughter as well was he?

Sure do! This one;

http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/News/TV Shows/Connect with Mark Kelley/ID=2213971998

ETA, to answer your question, no, he was not charged with manslaughter, but I believe the lawyer in that interview said the jury could find him guilty of a lesser charge than first degree.

 

[Ardy]

Marcia McMillan on CTVNC just said that the shoes they found was confirmed by MCClintic to belong to Tori Stafford. I hope she's going to correct herself.

Goodness.........some of these media reports are just so far wrong.

Canada should have in court cameras.

Instead we have to try to decipher the truth through a mixture of tweets and
the lens of reporting bias.

The days of "anonymity" in high profile court cases is long gone.

Welcome to the 21st century Canada......

 

[matou]

I realize why LE keeps certain info close to the vest during these types of investigations.

However, asking for information, such as

- anyone finding shoes north of guelph
-anyone that could identify this carwash while releasing the sketch
-anyone that could identify the house with the laneway across the road releasing the sketch

could have helped this investigation to bring evidence in and to bring closure sooner than the 103 days that it took.

ITA. I can think of some other things that could have brought closure to this case and had the police find Tori sooner and it has nothing to do with TLM or the police. JMO

 

[antiquegirl]

If this article is correct and this lady does remember seeing a car seat then I would believe we have our answers to what MR was doing after the interview with police. I would bet that is where the other shoe went too.
Having said that, why on earth would he take his car seat out and dump it on the side of the road.

(BBM)

Sorry, but this is kind of confusing. The witness found the shoes sometime in April, according to most media reports. It wasn't clear when exactly she saw the car seat. MTR was interviewed by the OPP on May 15th. He was arrested on May 19th.

Are you suggesting that he disassembled the car seat right after the murder, dropped it right near where the shoes were found, picked it up again between May 15 and 19, and got rid of it again during those four days? And that LE still couldn't find it since then? :waitasec:

JMO

 

[swedie]

It would be interesting to know if TLM committed crimes with other individuals and whether or not she kept silent about their involvement or if she readily (or reluctantly) gave up their names.

re: the car seat. Could TLM have cut chunks out of the seat where blood was present and the chunks remained in the car to be tossed out in different places on the way home? The rest of the seat could possibly have been removed and left on that sideroad? MOO

Maybe TLM shoved foam chunk or cloth from the seat under MR's driver or passenger seat for future reference. Wouldn't that be something. :rocker::moo:

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Sure do! This one;

http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/News/TV Shows/Connect with Mark Kelley/ID=2213971998

I'm on my iPad right ow so I can't see the video but that should be the right one. Do you remember what I'm talking about as far as manslaughter being something that the jury can deliberate on?

Is that what the explanation of mens rae is referring to when they talk about proving positive defenses?

 

[antiquegirl]

Sure do! This one;

http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/News/TV Shows/Connect with Mark Kelley/ID=2213971998

ETA, to answer your question, no, he was not charged with manslaughter, but I believe the lawyer in that interview said the jury could find him guilty of a lesser charge than first degree.

Thanks for re-posting this, Dilbert. I have a friend who works for a law firm. She said if they can't prove the sexual assault, the charges could very well be reduced to 2nd degree murder. This happened in the Cecilia Zhang case, even though she died at the hands of her abductor. The original charge was 1st degree murder. It seems the law is more flexible than we realized.

JMO

 

[dilbert]

I'm on my iPad right ow so I can't see the video but that should be the right one. Do you remember what I'm talking about as far as manslaughter being something that the jury can deliberate on?

Is that what the explanation of mens rae is referring to when they talk about proving positive defenses?

Yes, it is. The lawyer said the jury could outright acquit him on the first degree charge or they could find him guilty of a lesser charge, such as manslaughter.

 

[antiquegirl]

Where is the proof that MTR wasn't there??

Once more, the defence doesn't have to prove that MTR wasn't there. The burden of proof is on the Crown to prove that he was ... and beyond a reasonable doubt.

"the presumption of innocence places a legal burden upon the prosecution to prove all elements of the offense (generally beyond a reasonable doubt)"

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_burden_of_proof"]Legal burden of proof - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[Kamille]

ITA. I can think of some other things that could have brought closure to this case and had the police find Tori sooner and it has nothing to do with TLM or the police. JMO

Starting with the guy sitting in the prisoner's box who chose to do and say absolutely nothing for 3 years, hiding and destroying evidence, instead of leading LE to the evidence that might have backed up this farce of a story that he's expecting 12 intelligent people to believe after leaving that beautiful child's body to lay there and rot for three long months. Whjile simultaneously running around town suggesting that her own mother was at fault. And in doing so, possibly eliminating the DNA evidence that would prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that he raped that child...twice. Or that he didn't.

He didn't give a flying fig about that innocent little girl that he helped to dispose of in a rock pile. Still doesn't. He only cares about his own sorry *advertiser censored**.

What a fine upstanding citizen he turned out to be....not.

MOO