Trial Thread, Weekend Discussion May 4-5, 2012 Waiting for Closing Arguments

[snoofer]

Let's face it. Two very bad characters found each other. Desire..they both had strange proclivities to sex and violence. Neither had any self imposed boundaries on how they lived their life. Strange proclivities, no filter on criminal behavior, loaded with drugs...the simple fact of an innocent child in their vehicle with no permission. Not hard to predict what would come next. MOO

a. then add in the stop for the hammer
b. the rural location
c. the condition of the body when found

It is all just gravy on the case for the crown. MOO

 

[LadyL]

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/06/14/swastikas-on-cenotaph-case-thrown-out

thanks for the link but I don't see anywhere in there that the police lied

what the article says is that two rookies looked at the suspect's laptop before obtaining a warrant (despite a supervisor telling them to wait for a warrant ... I actually find this part difficult to believe - that two rookies would disobey orders)

the distinction is important to me in relation to Tori's case because stating that the officers lied casts aspersions on the same police dep't that helped investigate McClintic & Rafferty

I want to know if the police did actually lie and if so, what ramifications resulted

 

[greenthumb]

He wasn't going to be able to move on after bringing TLM along as a witness.

He would be tied to her forever and fearful she would talk.

IMO he visited her in Genest in the hopes she wouldn't falsely accuse him of murdering TS......which she did proceed to do.

MR didn't need TLM if he wanted to kidnap a child.
Why would he entrust her with his life?

JMO..........

BBM

IMO, he did need TLM if he wanted to kidnap a child... because he was all talk, no action and a coward. I think he had secret twisted desires that he revealed only when he found someone in whom he recognized equal depravity - TLM. Without her, I do not think he would have acted on those desires... at least not yet... because he was not bold enough yet. But once he figured out that he could actually voice those perverted fantasies to TLM and that she did not recoil in horror or run like the wind, he became excited at the possibilities that opened up for him... because now he had a puppet to carry out the risky step of actually enticing a child. And all he had to do was sit back and wait for 'his prize' to be brought to him, like the true coward that he is. All just MOO.

And I think he was so driven by his sick urges and the thrill of 'all the good things coming his way' that he wouldn't even have thought ahead enough to realize he would be tied to TLM forever or that he would be entrusting his life to her. IMO, he was all hopped up on drugs and sexual urges and sick fantasies - I don't think consequences played much of a part in his decision making that day. I think he hardly dared believe that his fantasy was going to come true so didn't really have a 'plan'... but once Tori was actually in the vehicle, he knew they had to get out of town, and headed to Guelph for drugs as previously planned. I think the rest of the 'plan' was hatched along the way. I think at some point as they were driving it became clear that Tori recognized/knew TLM - and that's when it dawned on him that they 'couldn't keep her and couldn't take her home'. And also I think that he realized that Tori was old enough and smart enough to identify him, so they had to kill her. And all that happened after that was just spur of the moment decisions... except for the rape, which was what he had dreamed of all along.

All just MOO.

 

[greenthumb]

not believing the flashbacks thing. As TLM bought the hammer long before the flashbacks started. IMO

I understand your point about the hammer being bought before the flashbacks... and I believe that by the time they got to Guelph, it was clear that Tori could not live... but that doesn't mean that the flashbacks didn't happen. To me, it just means that Tori would have been killed whether TLM had flashbacks or not... and maybe up until TLM began beating Tori, it really hadn't been decided who would do the killing, just that it would have to be done - by one or the other or both. I think it all came together so fast, and they were making spur of the moment decisions, without a lot of forethought or discussion... everything just developing one thing after another, in a rush... I'm not convinced that they had discussed who would do the killing. All just MOO.

 

[LadyL]

Tori was too terrified to move or think straight by this time. It's quite possible she had already peed herself and was afraid to tell for fear of being hit or beaten. Some people may not have had an eight year old child to know how they act. So I can understand why some question Tori's reactions and thought process on that horrific day. At eight years old you are naive, trusting in most people on one hand but yet afraid of older people and strangers on the other, they are still so new and don't have the full understanding of so much and especially the evilness that lurks in this world. Little eight year olds are just getting the hang of reading and writing, where school becomes more constructive in "work" and less "play". The reasoning part of their brains is still so so immature and they are just coming into logical thinking. IIRC the logical and reasoning part of the brain isn't fully developed until the age of 21. No I do not believe TLM lied about this, I believe Tori was just too scared and didn't think logically and see it as a way to get away from MR and TLM. JMHO

The Child’s Developing Brain Along the bottom is a slider where you can move it along to see how under developed a child's brain is. The older they get the more their brain develops of course. Interesting to see how under developed it is at eight years of age. Yes and at 21 the brain is full developed. HTH

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008/09/15/health/20080915-brain-development.html

ITA

I can absolutely imagine myself as a terrified eight year-old, saying no to any offer, even if it meant possible freedom and I can also imagine that I would've peed myself the second I was pushed into that car or when they told me to crouch down or when they put a coat over me or ...

even an adult with full logical-thinking ability would be confused and shocked and scared and not necessarily rational

 

[LadyL]

Quote:
14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
They got back to Woodstock. He dropped her off at Starlight Variety. He didn't want to be seen near her house.






This statement left me wondering as well and makes no sense. Why make her walk home to distance himself. They had no knowledge of the video ..why distance yourself ? There certainly was no problem in keeping in touch when he was visiting her at the detention cente. To me JMO this is just one of the parts of the story that TLM cooked up between her initial statements of confession to LE and her evidence presented on the stand. I'm certain there were many statements that just were not true. Could be due to the drugs effect on her memory and/or that she is a compulsive liar. So the jury has their work cut out as to which and what to believe....MOO

we're trying to apply our logic though

our logic wouldn't allow us to brutalize a little girl either ...

 

[flipflop]

He wasn't going to be able to move on after bringing TLM along as a witness.He would be tied to her forever and fearful she would talk.

IMO he visited her in Genest in the hopes she wouldn't falsely accuse him of murdering TS......which she did proceed to do.

MR didn't need TLM if he wanted to kidnap a child.

Why would he entrust her with his life?

JMO..........

JMO I feel that MR thought he could successfully complete this fantasy together with TLM because he found her to be crazy enough to help him out. After the crime was completed I feel he thought he could say "we can't be seen together" and that would end this so called relationship, use her and move on. He probably didn't think of TLM being picked up so soon after the crime, perhaps he didn't even know the extent of her past that she would be picked up for anything. Once she was picked up by LE, he probably was very paranoid and stayed in contact with her, with visits to the detention center to find out what LE was asking, saying, and what TLM was saying. He then realized...Im stuck with this crazy person or else she will spill the beans on me, I have to stay on her good side, I cannot move on from her.
MOO

 

[LadyL]

I don't want to make this a political debate, but I disagree with your statement, I don't think police should have the right to look through anything without a warrant. That's why I'm opposed to Bill-C-30 in Canada. Police shouldn't have the right to do whatever they want. This is isn't just about cell phones, it's about your right to privacy.

oh boy, I have SO much to say about this but we should really move it to a different thread in the political forum

 

[daisy.faithfull]

JMO I feel that MR thought he could successfully complete this fantasy together with TLM because he found her to be crazy enough to help him out. After the crime was completed I feel he thought he could say "we can't be seen together" and that would end this so called relationship, use her and move on. He probably didn't think of TLM being picked up so soon after the crime, perhaps he didn't even know the extent of her past that she would be picked up for anything. Once she was picked up by LE, he probably was very paranoid and stayed in contact with her, with visits to the detention center to find out what LE was asking, saying, and what TLM was saying. He then realized...Im stuck with this crazy person or else she will spill the beans on me, I have to stay on her good side, I cannot move on from her.
MOO

I agree.

I think that he dropped her off because he did not want her neighbors to see them together. And of course it followed that because of what they did they couldn't be seen together. When she went into the detention center, his behavior changed for the exact reason you stated above.

I think he went to see her even though going to the detention center would link him even more to TLM. Foremost in his mind was making sure that LE was not onto either of them in connection with Tori's disappearance, and that TLM still idolized him etc

Going into the whole thing I think he was so fixated on what he could do with TLM he didn't put much thought into what would happen after they committed a crime together. Like you said I don't think he had thought about the fact that they would stuck together. I guess something like a young teenaged couple who have sex without protection and get pregnant. YKWIM?

 

[matou]

Why would TLM need MR to kidnap a child? To take the child to Guelph? To take her to Mount Forest? I don't see this as TLM's idea. The drug debt is spin, IMO, so there is no reason for her to want to kidnap a child, boy or girl. Why would MR need TLM to kidnap a child? Because a girl would seem more trustworthy than a guy sitting in a deathmobile. MR and his car would stand out at a school. JMO

 

[LadyL]

I don't know that these boards represent a typical sample of society though.

We occasionally talk about the case at work. I have not yet heard someone say "It's a conspiracy against an innocent man" or "Something's not right about the case" or "He's clearly innocent" or even "I hope he's found guilty but I just don't know."

My observation is that the average person, who gets their info about the case by watching the news - i.e. doesn't come on to online forums to discuss the possibilty of drug debt, widespread LE corruption, zombie invasions, etc - believes overwhelmingly that he is guilty.

ITA. [bbm] In the Guy Paul Morin case, there were all kinds of whisperings about innocence ... at least in my circles

in this case, it's more like "he needs to fry" and "I wish Canada had the death penalty" etc.

 

[giantalkinghead]

MR's blood mixed with TS blood in the gym bag?

MR could have cut his hand on the sharp edge of one of the rocks he was carrying around, and had his blood mixed with TS blood when he reached into the gym bag.

JMO..............

My thought on the gym bag/blood mix.... was the blood mixed at the same time? It was his gym bag. We've seen boxing pics. Could there have already been minute blood cells on the bag prior to TS blood being transfered onto the bag ? There is no disputing that he was there. The blood mix still doesn't equal rape... MOO

 

[tmhco]

I found a blog last night of someone who was at the trial for TLM's testimony. I feel uncomfortable linking to it but here are the statements TLM made on the stand that were not reported by media. Take them with a grain of salt since I have no way of proving she did say this.

This one leads me to believe he way have been rough with TLM?

"After the lunch break, audio was working again and TLM continued her story. She had mentioned that he had said bad things and she had pushed them to the back of her mind as she wanted to think he was a good guy, for instance, he asked her if it would be weird if he would say he wanted to kidnap someone - she laughed it off - dumb *advertiser censored*! Also he took her around to a few houses telling her the layout of them and how you could go in, tie someone up and take them..... now these would be warning signs to most people. When the crown was asking her about other instances, she had started to say once time he climbed on top of her and.... then the crown stopped right there and went in a different direction saying they did not need to get into that right now."

Possible explanation as to why TLM may have not known it was for sexual purposes?

"Oh I forgot to mention that TLM said Rafftery had dared grab a kid, he said make it a girl, they are easier to manipulate, she said she always rose to dares!!!!

JMO

 

[giantalkinghead]

So, according to CM.......TLM did know TS prior to the abduction.

Also interesting that CM claims JG didn't buy drugs from her, and it does make sense that she needs them for herself. If she sells them......she would have to buy more at street prices or go without. Going without isn't an option for an oxy addict and very sick woman.

The claims are that CM sold the drugs to TM and JB.........but what if it was TLM who was conducting the drug sales out of CM's house?

Maybe it wasn't CM's prescription drugs that were being sold.......but drugs that TLM had secured for her own sales. She did seem to have connections to get drugs for MR whenever he wanted some.

In that scenario.......a drug debt could very well have not been to CM.....but somebody who had given TLM the drugs on consignment and held her responsible for the debt.

TLM could have been stuck in the middle of a bad situation.

JMO...........

If there was no drug connection between all of these people - then why was the telephone numbers of TM and JG found in the house of CM,TLM - not once but on two papers ? Also wonder why the papers say T & J ...not just T or J ? Why Brad ( crossed out ) with T & J..... lots of questions !

 

[LadyL]

That could be to...........

At $40 dollars a pill......that is only 450 pills or so, or 1-2 a day roughly.

JMO.............

I have seen reported (as recently as March 2012) anywhere from $20 up to $45

we don't know how much these people were profiting from their oxy sales in 2009

(they weren't paying street value for private use since CM and MR both had prescriptions and connections to the drug world - we can assume that they dug into their stash and did not pay street value, whether it was $20 or $40)

we also have seen that CM and TLM injected oxy and I don't know if that means they use less or more ...

 

[flipflop]

keeping my fingers crossed that both sides are done arguing legal issues, that they are prepared and ready for closings on Monday morning....hoping for no more delays...

 

[~n/t~]

keeping my fingers crossed that both sides are done arguing legal issues, that they are prepared and ready for closings on Monday morning....hoping for no more delays...

Amen!

 

[tmhco]

BBM

IMO, he did need TLM if he wanted to kidnap a child... because he was all talk, no action and a coward. I think he had secret twisted desires that he revealed only when he found someone in whom he recognized equal depravity - TLM. Without her, I do not think he would have acted on those desires... at least not yet... because he was not bold enough yet. But once he figured out that he could actually voice those perverted fantasies to TLM and that she did not recoil in horror or run like the wind, he became excited at the possibilities that opened up for him... because now he had a puppet to carry out the risky step of actually enticing a child. And all he had to do was sit back and wait for 'his prize' to be brought to him, like the true coward that he is. All just MOO.

And I think he was so driven by his sick urges and the thrill of 'all the good things coming his way' that he wouldn't even have thought ahead enough to realize he would be tied to TLM forever or that he would be entrusting his life to her. IMO, he was all hopped up on drugs and sexual urges and sick fantasies - I don't think consequences played much of a part in his decision making that day. I think he hardly dared believe that his fantasy was going to come true so didn't really have a 'plan'... but once Tori was actually in the vehicle, he knew they had to get out of town, and headed to Guelph for drugs as previously planned. I think the rest of the 'plan' was hatched along the way. I think at some point as they were driving it became clear that Tori recognized/knew TLM - and that's when it dawned on him that they 'couldn't keep her and couldn't take her home'. And also I think that he realized that Tori was old enough and smart enough to identify him, so they had to kill her. And all that happened after that was just spur of the moment decisions... except for the rape, which was what he had dreamed of all along.

All just MOO.

Not to mention, TLM was the perfect scapegoat. Who better to blame the whole thing on? A troubled, violent 18 year old junkie. Obviously, some are buying into it. JMO

 

[crazyladi]

It's safe to say TLM would NEVER have "rescued" Tori from her doomed abduction BECAUSE SHE DIDN'T. TLM had power to end it. Her stories are not to be believed. I can say that if I want, and I surely WILL. The scum killed the poor child with a hammer which she selected off the shelf. By the way, one can say "never" because it's over and her actions and choices have spoken. JMO

And mtr had the same choice so why didn't he? We don't know 100 percent if she brutally killed her. Just because she admitted it doesn't mean she did as there was no evidence found that could say who actually did it. So if you believe she did and not the rape how does that make sense?

They are both guilty as sin in my eyes no matter who actually killed her. They both could have let her go but didn't, they both could have told the truth they both didn't and whatever was said was lies.

I think I am going to go back and remove her testimony and I think at that time I will have decided he is guilty of all three charges jmo

 

[Wondergirl]

Feeling positive today, that this will be a good week.

We haven't forgotten that it's about you, Tori, not those vile 2 beings who led you away to your death.

Rest in Peace, little one.