IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #20

[TxLady2]

I agree with you that there is nothing new about human trafficking (prostitution).

Prostitution in the US typically does not result in any profit going to the prostitute. Almost all prostitutes have a pimp who "owns" them and to whom they must turn over all their money. The pimp often starts out with an emotional hold over the victim but typically does his best to get her hooked on some sort of drug as insurance against the day when his emotional hold will no longer work.

Pimps buy and sell prostitutes from each other.

There are a handful of prostitutes who got into sex work voluntarily (no emotional coercion) and who keep their own profits. Such women are at high risk for assault, both by johns and from pimps, who do not want their "stable" to get any big ideas.

You're right... but it is not the same thing as the human trafficking rings some here are talking about. There are very wealthy men all over the world who search on certain websites or make a call requesting a young boy or girl. They will pay thousands and thousands of dollars to buy a child... sometimes as young as 5 years old, to use for sex, for one weekend. In the meantime, those children are kept locked up until someone requests a child of a certain age or description. These children can range in age from very small up to 16 and 17 years old, IF they survive that long. Many do not. Some dealers may have accumulated 20 or 30 of these kids
Traffickers can make big bucks taking these children and selling them to these "dealers" who in turn sell them to these perverts. Many, many young women and girls are brought over here from south of the border, but some are kidnapped from places all over the USA and sold into slavery. I read a book not long ago that had an entire chapter devoted to this sex trade, and I was shocked and saddened by what I learned, I literally had nightmares. It is very real.

 

[TxLady2]

there will always be disgusting people that want virgins and young girls...............

And some want young boys!!

 

[GrainneDhu]

You're right... but it is not the same thing as the human trafficking rings some here are talking about. There are very wealthy men all over the world who search on certain websites or make a call requesting a young boy or girl. They will pay thousands and thousands of dollars to buy a child... sometimes as young as 5 years old, to use for sex, for one weekend. In the meantime, those children are kept locked up until someone requests a child of a certain age or description. These children can range in age from very small up to 16 and 17 years old, IF they survive that long. Many do not. Some dealers may have accumulated 20 or 30 of these kids
Traffickers can make big bucks taking these children and selling them to these "dealers" who in turn sell them to these perverts. Many, many young women and girls are brought over here from south of the border, but some are kidnapped from places all over the USA and sold into slavery. I read a book not long ago that had an entire chapter devoted to this sex trade, and I was shocked and saddened by what I learned, I literally had nightmares. It is very real.

I don't mean this in a snarky way but do you have links to this practice? Particularly any links verifying that this happens to children born in the US?

I've been reading such things for over 15 years, starting when Noreen Gosch alleged that Johnny Gosch was the victim of such a ring. I have yet to find any credible source, such as the FBI, that can confirm them. At this point, in my humble opinion, it's rather like the daycare Satanic ritual abuse scares of the late 80s. Not one single verified case but a lot of innocent adults whose lives were ruined when they were unjustly convicted (and that includes people who died in prison).

 

[LittleMissContrary]

IIRC the locals discussing it within the last couple of days, and the upshot was that bikes were not allowed on it so it was pretty much disregarded.

Sorry I missed that part of the discussion. I wouldn't imagine anyone would attempt to ride a bike on a tank, but I was thinking rather of the possibility of them playing and possibly getting stuck inside.

I blame this idea on an episode of Punky Brewster I saw when I was little. Although in that scenario it was an old fridge and not a tank.

Ok...I know its a silly idea. I will crawl back into the shadows quietly now.

 

[nikb]

Can any of the locals comment on the military tank depicted in the background of some of the early case photographs at the lake?

Again I'm not a local and I hope some of them will chime in soon, but I found the posts I was looking for. Here's my original:

IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, and Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #19 (where I was wondering what was up with that... ahem... "black truck.")

Considering's reply about it being an old army tank for kids to play on. IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, and Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #19


Sunlight's reply also indicating it's an old tank for kids to play on: IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, and Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #19


Also thanks to Sunlight, more about the tank: IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, and Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #19


At the risk of embarassing myself again :blush: there are a few other related posts including me realizing I mistook a military tank for a truck. In my defense from distant Google map images it mostly just looks like a large dark colored vehicle.

An aside, it was kind of cool to find out it's a tank. Near where I live it seems pretty unlikely they'd have something like that for kids to explore and play around on.

 

[nikb]

Sorry I missed that part of the discussion. I wouldn't imagine anyone would attempt to ride a bike on a tank, but I was thinking rather of the possibility of them playing and possibly getting stuck inside.

I blame this idea on an episode of Punky Brewster I saw when I was little. Although in that scenario it was an old fridge and not a tank.

Ok...I know its a silly idea. I will crawl back into the shadows quietly now.

BBM, no I'm glad you brought it up! I like that collectively we're still coming up with new ideas and maybe one of them will help. From what I've read here it's there for kids to play on, but I did wonder how easy it would be to somehow open it and get stuck. Seems like it'd be pretty tough to do, but I don't know. I hope the locals will chime in.

I think there was maybe some confusion between the playground and skate park, which I think are two completely different things and in different areas of the lake. I'm trying to find the map again. IIRC I think the tank is near the playground if not in the playground.

Please don't think any idea is silly, I think it's great to share any ideas.

ETA: PS I was a Punky Brewester fan too.

 

[nikb]

IIRC the locals discussing it within the last couple of days, and the upshot was that bikes were not allowed on it so it was pretty much disregarded.

I know I just posted this but wanted to reply to you directly also, SapphireSteel, mostly to say thanks. I'm almost positive the playground where the tank is located and the skate park are two different areas. I think the bikes aren't allowed inside the skate park, although kids on bikes can probably still watch from the "sidelines," just not ride on the ramps etc.

It was kind of an amusing visual picturing kids trying to skateboard or ride bikes on a tank though. For me it's been one of those days where it's great to laugh or smile over anything, so I know it sounds goofy but I appreciated it.

 

[nikb]

Wow, that article sure makes me think about Lyric and Elizabeth. I can see something like this occurring to them, but instead of being picked up at home, they were picked up at the lake. I believe their abductor had promised something special, such as shopping and eating out. JMO

BBM I could definitely see this scenario working! But playing devil's advocate, if they knew they had to be back pretty soon would this promise/story work? Shopping and eating out take awhile, even in a kid's mind, JMO. I'm still thinking about it, reasons it might work, because it seems possible.

 

[GrainneDhu]

BBM I could definitely see this scenario working! But playing devil's advocate, if they knew they had to be back pretty soon would this promise/story work? Shopping and eating out take awhile, even in a kid's mind, JMO. I'm still thinking about it, reasons it might work, because it seems possible.

One easy way for it to work would be to tell the girls "let's go ask your grandma for permission."

I think, though, that the girls were forced rather than lured given where their bicycles and Elizabeth's purse were found. If the perp tried luring them to a car parked either on Arbutus or on Maiden Lane, I think the bicycles would have been found at the closest point which would be at the eastern end of the double fenced area.

 

[cindersoot]

I wonder if there are two investigations going on? A homicide investigation and a kidnapping investigation.

 

[TxLady2]

I don't mean this in a snarky way but do you have links to this practice? Particularly any links verifying that this happens to children born in the US?

I've been reading such things for over 15 years, starting when Noreen Gosch alleged that Johnny Gosch was the victim of such a ring. I have yet to find any credible source, such as the FBI, that can confirm them. At this point, in my humble opinion, it's rather like the daycare Satanic ritual abuse scares of the late 80s. Not one single verified case but a lot of innocent adults whose lives were ruined when they were unjustly convicted (and that includes people who died in prison).

I don't have a link because I read it in a book and I don't have the book anymore. But I believe some links were posted regarding human trafficking in these threads somewhere. I didn't click on the links, so I don't know what the content is, but you could google human trafficking and probably come up with enough reading material to last you awhile. It does exist.
I am not saying that these young children are all taken from this country. Most of them are probably from other countries, possibly orphans. But some of the wealthy perverts who buy these children are right here in the good old USA, and they pay to have these children delivered to them, so that part of this ring is right here, right under our noses. .
Of course our government is not going to confirm this, they can't have people knowing what goes on when they have no power to control it. The FBI has many secrets, it would surprise the common person to know half of what they know. Law enforcement agencies have been well aware of this problem, particularly in the border states, for years, and that's all I can say about it.

 

[cindersoot]

I don't understand how some say they don't believe the girls were taken at the lake. The girls scent was detected by dogs and I don't think LE would of had the lake drained if they thought the girls weren't even there.

 

[cindersoot]

Sex slavery is very common in the US. It's a hard fact to swallow but the times we live in are not like the 80's and the 90's. I don't feel these girls are in the sex trade, I think a perp did what he lusted and then killed them. It was strange for auntie to mention sex trade, she must be doing some research and it was something she thought might be a theory.

 

[cindersoot]

I have spent many days praying for these girls. Now I pray for their families to finally have peace.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Sex slavery is very common in the US. It's a hard fact to swallow but the times we live in are not like the 80's and the 90's. I don't feel these girls are in the sex trade, I think a perp did what he lusted and then killed them. It was strange for auntie to mention sex trade, she must be doing some research and it was something she thought might be a theory.

Sex slavery was quite active in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s. There's a book about the Vancouver killings that covers the subject quite well but I can't remember the title. Ann Rule's Green River Running Red also touches on the problem.

Robert Pickton was active in the 90s and Gary Ridgway was mostly active in the 80s.

Sadly, I agree with you; I don't think the girls are still alive.

 

[Sunlight]

As many times as I have turned this case over and over in my mind...Even with all of the unsavory drug-related characters and theories involving human-trafficking; I still come up with a lone abductor that groomed at least one of the girls...perhaps over the summer..perhaps in Waterloo at the park, pool, Lake George Wyeth...something like that. I think that the abductor 1) knows the area well, 2) is a person who lives with shame, 3) has deviant sexual tastes, 4) a need to feel powerful...perhaps this person has a degree of delusion that needs to be on medication. I don't know.

I don't see a non-local abductor, snatching 2 kids off the street and then going to try to find a secluded place to stage or dump their bikes risking leaving evidence. They generally don't act that way. This person most likely lured them to the bike trail and tricked them into either getting into a vehicle or they got in willingly at the bike trail. The actual abduction may have begun at the main park area by the bathrooms and water and then progressed from there with the girls willingly biking to the other side of the lake via Gilbert and on down to Arbutus with the perp following them.

I do not believe any member of the family staged this in order to profit. I don't think any member of the family was involved, but I think someone in the family may have had an inkling that someone was trying to connect with either the girls or one of their other cousins in Waterloo or something like that. I think TB is right on the money.

I think LE has at least one real suspect in mind and perhaps looking at someone else. JMHO

ETA: One of my other thoughts is that they are actually in the lake or got trapped or locked in something...and that there was no abduction at all. MOO

 

[SailorMoon]

Sunlight, that is my gut feeling too. Back in the DFW area a few years ago, at a park in Irving I believe, a little boy just disappeared. He was unsupervised with this brother at a park, mom was in car hankypanking I think with male, and the brother said he fell into a hole, it was some pipe or something. I remember they ran all these tests and searched and screened and never found a trace, but the belief was he did fall into that. I wonder if something like that happened here........

 

[Sunlight]

I'm wondering if there are any tornado shelters, root cellars, old bomb shelters from the 60's...something like that in somebody's back yard by the lake for example. When I was 11, we used to explore caves that were in the back yard of someones property (old pirate..yes really..pirate caves) that were used to transport loot from ships underground to a tavern where a lady named "Mother Red Cap" was the go-between. It was in England. Anyway, we used to go down in there with a flashlight and snoop around. If the trap door at the top had shut...we could still be there! Just random thoughts. MOO

ETA: Brings to mind Lovely Bones btw.

 

[Sunlight]

Grain silos are a possibility too. MOO

 

[Jewels53]

Here is an article about Sex Trafficking. I just thought I would share since some of you are talking about it. Not that this is my opinion, but it is still happening. The article is from Feb. 2012 and updated Mar. 2012.

http://www.kctv5.com/story/17039834/trafficking-kids-for-sex

Of course MOO