NC - MacDonald family murders at Fort Bragg, 1970 - Jeffrey MacDonald innocent?

[Betty P]

oh...sorry everyone...I see Madeleine answered this question earlier! I should read thru the WHOLE thread before I jump in.....thanks everybody for all the good info....I had forgotten so much about this case!

And thanks Madeleine!

I agree! It's been 20 yrs or more since I read Fatal Vision and all the other information about the case. I really need to refresh my memory, go back and re-read this stuff.

I think the Jeffrey MacDonald case was the very first time I experienced the process of analyzing the evidence, timeline, etc. from start to finish. But all the new stuff I've read lately just doesn't quite convince me he's innocent.

 

[believe09]

It was kimmy in the bedroom, and IIRC her blood was on the door jam. Part of the speculation in the book was that he grabbed the bed slat from Collette and hit Kimmy on his back swing. He knocked Collette out, took Kimmy to her room and finished her off, Collette dragged herself to Kristy's room to save her and he murdered both of them there.

Then he carried Collette to the bedroom-his foot print appeared in Collette's blood in the hall way headed to the bedroom.

Again, his blood appeared in two places in minute amounts-on the pocket of his pajamas which was torn off before anyone was injured and in the bathroom where the scalpels were kept.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Frankly I dont think a drug addict was sitting down reading newspapers or magazines.

The photo was shown but they did not mention the spring was broken even though it was.

HS said she knew it was broken because she sat on it, iirc.

Strange that the Judge found her unreliable yet it came out later on that other police agencies found her very reliable and had depended on her to make over a 100 busts in drug cases.

So she is conveniently incompetent in other criminal cases but then she isnt in the JM case.

Which two witnesses said they had seen the icepick? I know at first Colette's family was adamant that they didnt own one and years later they said they did.

IMO

OMG! Im quoting my own post from yesterday. I was so tired when I wrote this post last night and it shows! LOL

I meant to say 'she was conveniently incompetent in the MacDonald case yet very competent in over a hundred drug cases.

Sorry.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I agree! It's been 20 yrs or more since I read Fatal Vision and all the other information about the case. I really need to refresh my memory, go back and re-read this stuff.

I think the Jeffrey MacDonald case was the very first time I experienced the process of analyzing the evidence, timeline, etc. from start to finish. But all the new stuff I've read lately just doesn't quite convince me he's innocent.

BBM

I was always a die hard guilty in the JM case and never even thought much more about it until now nor did I ever read up on it through all these years. I did read Fatal Vision decades ago. Now there are many books I want to read that I wasnt even aware that is out there. I never realized how many sites have been set up for JM over the years either. A lot of them pro-prosection and a lot of them pro-defense.

But now Im not sure if he is guilty or innocent. I never thought I would have any doubt in this case but I do.

Im at the stage of 'maybe he is guilty.....maybe he is innocent.' I just dont know. I havent found anything that convinces me beyond a reasonalbe doubt either way but I sure have read a lot that has shaken my core belief that I have had held for years.

But if half of what I have read about the crime scene being trampled and contaminated or that evidence was withheld from the defense is true... I do think he deserves a new trial whether innocent or not.

IMO

 

[Boodles]

48 Hours addressed this. One of the crime scene photos that shows the rocking horse indicates that none of the springs was broken. The photo is shown on the show. It will be repeated on the OWN network on Sept. 25 either at 3 a.m. or 4 a.m. (Not sure since the scheduling on OWN notes both times. Those interested may want to set your DVRs from 3 a.m. to 5 a.m. just to play it safe).

hmmm, can't find it. It is 48 hours Hard Evidence? None of the descriptions match the MacDonald case when I search on OWN. Thanks.

 

[Madeleine74]

This was all I could find:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/16/48hours/main2580419.shtml

[ame="http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=1003341n&tag=contentBody;storyMediaBox"]48 Hours: Crime Scene Overview - 48 Hours - CBS News[/ame]

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

BBM

I was always a die hard guilty in the JM case and never even thought much more about it until now nor did I ever read up on it through all these years. I did read Fatal Vision decades ago. Now there are many books I want to read that I wasnt even aware that is out there. I never realized how many sites have been set up for JM over the years either. A lot of them pro-prosection and a lot of them pro-defense.

But now Im not sure if he is guilty or innocent. I never thought I would have any doubt in this case but I do.

Im at the stage of 'maybe he is guilty.....maybe he is innocent.' I just dont know. I havent found anything that convinces me beyond a reasonalbe doubt either way but I sure have read a lot that has shaken my core belief that I have had held for years.

But if half of what I have read about the crime scene being trampled and contaminated or that evidence was withheld from the defense is true... I do think he deserves a new trial whether innocent or not.

IMO

I'm right there with you Ocean!

 

[hollyjokers]

In revisiting Bernard Segal's treatment of HS in Fatal Vision, he did everything Blackburn is accused of doing and more. Speaking softly like she was a sleeping child, promising immunity, "the statute of limitations on this is up, nothing will happen I promise," he showed her crime scene photos of all three rooms, then when she remained steadfast that she could not help, she was not there, he threatened her with prison. Later during a lunch break, while eating a bologna sandwich, she flipped through the album of crime scene & autopsy photos like it was a fashion magazine.

She testified on a Friday, they kept her in a hotel in Raleigh over the weekend while the judge mulled over an issue, and it was then she told one of Segal's assistants about the broken horse. She said the wheels were broken, when it was actually on rails.

 

[hollyjokers]

Haha! In reference to evil incarnate, Jim Blackburn's intimidation methods. On Monday morning, Segal came in, flush with his new hearsay testimony of Helena's confession, Judge Dupree says, "oh, incidentally, Mr. Segal, Miss Stoeckley also phoned me twice Saturday night to tell me she was in mortal fear of Bernard Segal, counsel for the defendant, and wishes to be appointed her own attorney."

 

[SMK]

Don't know if anyone posted this before, just came upon it now:

Author: Jeffrey MacDonald confession needs court hearing

A Charlotte couple’s assertion this week that they heard an acquaintance confess to the murder of Jeffrey MacDonald’s family is the latest proof that MacDonald deserves a new trial, writer Errol Morris said Thursday.

Morris is the author of “A Wilderness of Error,” a new and critical look at MacDonald’s 1979 conviction for murder. The writer and filmmaker was in Wilmington for much of the week, sitting in on a federal court hearing in which MacDonald sought a new trial.


http://www.thestate.com/2012/09/21/2450187/author-jeffrey-macdonald-confession.html#.UF31po1lRqE

 

[hollyjokers]

I wish someone would write a book about the horrible harassment & crimes committed against an incapacitated woman, with a history of mental illness dating back to high school, all to secure the freedom of a narcissistic killer who has lost countless appeals and case reviews over the past 30 years.

Color me sappy.

 

[Madeleine74]

I wish someone would write a book about the horrible harassment & crimes committed against an incapacitated woman, with a history of mental illness dating back to high school, all to secure the freedom of a narcissistic killer who has lost countless appeals and case reviews over the past 30 years.

Color me sappy.

Not to mention HS has been dead for 30 years now.

I always wondered why a woman carrying either a candle or a flashlight would shine it up close to her own face as MacDonald claimed (so Dr. MacDonald could get a good glimpse of her) instead of shining a light towards him, in what was a fairly darkish room. How many people do you know walk around with a light shining the light upon their own faces (outside of some Halloween special affect, that is)? That one never made sense to me either. It was raining all that day, had been for days before, and into the day after, yet HS is carrying around a lit candle and it never went out?

Also in the "huh?" category. MacDonald claims his daughter was yelling, "Daddy,Daddy, Daddy." Why wasn't she yelling for her Mommy, who was her primary caretaker (Daddy worked all day and extra shifts and a 2nd job). I think the daughter WAS yelling "Daddy, Daddy, Daddy" because her Daddy was hitting her mommy with the club. A liar will incorporate some of the truth in a story.

 

[Boodles]

Not to mention HS has been dead for 30 years now.

I always wondered why a woman carrying either a candle or a flashlight would shine it up close to her own face as MacDonald claimed (so Dr. MacDonald could get a good glimpse of her) instead of shining a light towards him, in what was a fairly darkish room. How many people do you know walk around with a light shining the light upon their own faces (outside of some Halloween special affect, that is)? That one never made sense to me either. It was raining all that day, had been for days before, and into the day after, yet HS is carrying around a lit candle and it never went out?

Also in the "huh?" category. MacDonald claims his daughter was yelling, "Daddy,Daddy, Daddy." Why wasn't she yelling for her Mommy, who was her primary caretaker (Daddy worked all day and extra shifts and a 2nd job). I think the daughter WAS yelling "Daddy, Daddy, Daddy" because her Daddy was hitting her mommy with the club. A liar will incorporate some of the truth in a story.

EXACTLY! I had a chilling thought yesterday. It's said there's an ounce of truth in every lie...

Well, remember Jeff has always claimed that he awoke to Colette's screams of "Jeff, why are they doing this to me?" I have always thought that was such a stupid phrase for him to have made up. She would not have screamed those words to him from the bedroom if he was in the living room. She would have screamed "HELP!" or "Stop" or "why are you[/b] doing this?"

But now I get it. If your husband is beating you with a wood club, you might scream, "{insert name}, why are YOU doing this to me?" And that is what I think JM heard in Colette's screams that night as he was killing her. She wasn't asking him why they were beating/stabbing her; she was begging him to know why HE was.... So his lie is partially based on some words he heard. Maybe this has been obvious to everyone else all these years, but it just clicked for me...

So tragic.

 

[Madeleine74]

But now I get it. If your husband is beating you with a wood club, you might scream, "{insert name}, why are YOU doing this to me?" And that is what I think JM heard in Colette's screams that night as he was killing her.

That quote is exactly something that Prosecutor Blackburn mentioned during his closing arguments. He suggested the same thing to the jury.

I got a hold of an ebook copy of Fatal Vision to reread since it's been at least 25 years since I first read it.

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

EXACTLY! I had a chilling thought yesterday. It's said there's an ounce of truth in every lie...

Well, remember Jeff has always claimed that he awoke to Colette's screams of "Jeff, why are they doing this to me?" I have always thought that was such a stupid phrase for him to have made up. She would not have screamed those words to him from the bedroom if he was in the living room. She would have screamed "HELP!" or "Stop" or "why are you[/b] doing this?"

But now I get it. If your husband is beating you with a wood club, you might scream, "{insert name}, why are YOU doing this to me?" And that is what I think JM heard in Colette's screams that night as he was killing her. She wasn't asking him why they were beating/stabbing her; she was begging him to know why HE was.... So his lie is partially based on some words he heard. Maybe this has been obvious to everyone else all these years, but it just clicked for me...

So tragic.

I had never thought of that....certainly makes sense....thanks for posting that!

 

[sandybeach1267]

I have no idea whether he is guilty or not but people DO break into homes without weapons, without being heard by the adults, sometimes even animals do not respond, they do use weapons found in the home, kill children and leave adults unharmed. I know I am spelling the name wrong but think of Tommy Lynn Sells. A mother was convicted of murdering her own son only to later be released when he confessed. Jessica Lundsford was kidnapped from her own bedroom without any adults waking up. ANYTHING is possible and we should remember that before assuming that no one would do such a thing. They have and they will again!

 

[LinasK]

I got a hold of an ebook copy of Fatal Vision to reread since it's been at least 25 years since I first read it.

I'm pretty sure I still have the original!

 

[hollyjokers]

Nobody is ASSUMING anything. He was tried and found guilty by a panel of jurists his attorneys approved. His conviction has been appealed to the Supreme Court & upheld. No investigation is without flaw, but his story & the forensic evidence are "diametrically opposed."

 

[Madeleine74]

ANYTHING is possible and we should remember that before assuming that no one would do such a thing. They have and they will again!

Anything may be "possible" in the realm of hypothetical crimes out there but in this case, that's simply not what happened. You'd have to spin such a convoluted set of circumstances to make MacDonald's story fit -- 4 intruders, no weapons other than those they found inside the apartment, no footprints (and it was raining and muddy outside so I guess the 4 intruders were levitating that night), no fingerprints, no injuries, no fibers from them, 3 men attacking 1 person on a couch while one woman stands there, yet that man is barely injured. At the exact same time somehow those 4 people who are attacking MacDonald are simultaneously attacking his wife in a back bedroom AND his 5 year old daughter, and stabbing the wife with an ice pick through her chest, leaving a torn PJ pocket and PJ threads on the floor and under the body of Collette in the MBR while MacDonald's PJ top is still on him in the living room. According to MacDonald, his pajama top was never off of his body until *he dropped it onto the floor and then put it over his wife's chest.* How did the 48 perfectly cylindrical ice pick holes get in MacDonald's PJ top and manage to match the wound pattern (21 holes) in Collette's chest?

Nope. Defies the laws of physics, time, space, gravity and probably several other laws I haven't thought of.

 

[Cappuccino]

I have no idea whether he is guilty or not but people DO break into homes without weapons, without being heard by the adults, sometimes even animals do not respond, they do use weapons found in the home, kill children and leave adults unharmed. I know I am spelling the name wrong but think of Tommy Lynn Sells. A mother was convicted of murdering her own son only to later be released when he confessed. Jessica Lundsford was kidnapped from her own bedroom without any adults waking up. ANYTHING is possible and we should remember that before assuming that no one would do such a thing. They have and they will again!

Yes, you're right, such things do happen, bizarre as they may seem. I'm not a fan at all of accusing the one person left alive in the house just because he/she is left alive. The case you quote of Julie Rae Harper is one shocking example of why people should NOT do that, but there are many, many others. Stephanie Crowe, Riley Fox, Elisabeth Smart, etc etc.

Most people here know of those cases, and yet most people here are highly skeptical of MacDonald's defense. Why? Hmmm...a group of hippies who break into a house to commit mass murder, chanting "acid is groovy, kill the pigs", and leave the man of the house alive. This is backed up by a mentally "not all there" woman who confesses, recants, confesses, recants and so on.

Sorry, but this is claptrap. I'm sure it sounded believable back in 1970, with the Manson family still fresh in peoples' memories, and with knowledge of false confessions being close to zero. But with the knowledge we have in 2012, its a wonder Helena Stoeckley and her friends didn't fall prey to a miscarriage of justice. MacDonald may or may not be entitled to a new trial, but only on legal technicalities. He is by no means an innocence case, and I'm disappointed in Errol Morris for taking him on as such.