Jodi Arias Trial: the weekend discussion

[WhoaIsMe]

To change the topic a bit, I've been contemplating the blood spatter evidence from Friday. Based on the testimony, it appears Travis was likely stabbed in the heart near the shower door. He possibly lunged out in surprise. He headed away from Jodi in a clockwise direction since she was probably blocking the hall to the bedroom. He went past the tub and possibly collapsed (couldn't feel his legs) and Jodi stabbed at him, causing the spatter to appear at a relatively low height. He worked his way around to the sink and tried to pull himself up at the sink. There, he coughed up blood and was continually stabbed by Jodi. He managed to crawl as far as the bedroom where she slashed his throat. She then dragged him back to the shower. By then, he was dead. She likely shot him in the head to be sure he was dead before she put him in the shower.

All of this took less than 1 1/2 minutes. Those were the most horrifyingly painful moments in Travis' life. He had to know he was dying.

I do believe Travis lunged after Jodi. It wasn't because the camera was dropped, it was because he had been stabbed in the heart.

That would explain why the walls of the shower were clean. He never bled in there until post-mortem. That blood came about because of sheer gravity.

IMHO, any stab wounds or slashing wounds after the first could in no way be part of self defense. Travis was crawling for his life and couldn't outrun the hyped-up Jodi.

As to their relative moral characters, I could care less. In the long run, the proof is in those wounds, three of them fatal.

It boggles the mind that all of this horror happened in such a short period of time. Life sure can turn on a dime.

 

[norest4thewicked]

Psychopaths are notoriously poor planners.

And I even broke down and providing a linking !

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ab.10051/abstract

http://www.crimetimes.org/95d/w95dp9.htm


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:great: Linda7NJ provided a link!!!!! lol

 

[TorisMom003]

I imagine you are talking about me. People who are religious struggle with spiritual issues.

If one chooses a religion seriously like he did, then people try to live the teachings. I don't think he was going just for the social time. I think he was a believer.

He was not doing what is expected for very basic issues. The Mormon church is far more intense on the topic of premarital sex than a lot of churches.

So it was a struggle for him for he was changing to look for a woman more in line with what he wanted to be.

Is that negative? People who are into their religions have spiritual issues that they deal with. That is what it is all about.

I'm just using your post as a jumping off point. We need to remember that Jodi decided to become a Mormon. This was a decision that she herself made. She had the same restrictions, if you will, as Travis because of the choice she made. Jodi not only had a sexual relationship with Travis, she moved on to a sexual relationship with another Mormon the day after she brutally killed Travis. If one is going to lay some sort of blame at Travis's feet because he did not live up to the restrictions of his chosen religion then one must also do the same of Jodi and the man she visited after killing Travis.

So, now that it has been established that both Travis and Jodi were not living their lives in the way of their chosen religion can the religion aspect please be dropped?

MOO

 

[WhoaIsMe]

lease:

I think one has to understand the significance of this religion in people's lives. It is not like being a Christmas and Easter going to church person. If one accepts it like he did, it is major.

Lots of people are very religious but that doesn't make any of them sinless. Even pastors. Just because someone aspires to have a high moral code doesn't mean they achieve it. Most religious standards are much higher than any human could hope to live up to. It doesn't mean they should throw up their hands and not try at all.

 

[Linda7NJ]

:great: Linda7NJ provided a link!!!!! lol

Just don't get used to it! I wouldn't want to spoil you all. lol


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[Really?]

I could see this scenario. Especially if the knife was a switch blade, it could easily be kept from Travis' view before she extended the blade.

Wow that is good thinking.

 

[human]

I'm just using your post as a jumping off point. We need to remember that Jodi decided to become a Mormon. This was a decision that she herself made. She had the same restrictions, if you will, as Travis because of the choice she made. Jodi not only had a sexual relationship with Travis, she moved on to a sexual relationship with another Mormon the day after she brutally killed Travis. If one is going to lay some sort of blame at Travis's feet because he did not live up to the restrictions of his chosen religion then one must also do the same of Jodi and the man she visited after killing Travis.

So, now that it has been established that both Travis and Jodi were not living their lives in the way of their chosen religion can the religion aspect please be dropped?

MOO

We all know Jodi was no more a Mormon than she would be anything because she has no personality or conscience.

Laying blame on Travis? Really? Who could blame anyone for choosing to date or be friends with anyone?

Maybe not all people, but lots of us look for and find the best in people. Then we figure out whatever the good is, it does not outweigh the other parts that impact the relationship.

He had a spiritual dilemma and he indicates that in his blog. Jodi had a dilemma. She took care of it in her way. No problemo. Time for her to move on.

To compare Jodi and Travis is not even on the same planet

 

[human]

Lots of people are very religious but that doesn't make any of them sinless. Even pastors. Just because someone aspires to have a high moral code doesn't mean they achieve it. Most religious standards are much higher than any human could hope to live up to. It doesn't mean they should throw up their hands and not try at all.

The discussion has been on the impact of the church on this trial.

I think it will be brought up.

 

[KMouse]

Hi! I am new here, but have been following this trial for awhile and reading the posts. Thanks for all of the info you have been posting! There is something that is really bothering me that I have noticed while watching the trial......the lack of any kind of emotion or reaction to anything that has been said/shown by JA's mother (or the aunt). They sit there stone faced no matter what it going on, whether it be pics of TA's wounds, whether the defense is talking about how her daughter had to kill to defend herself (which I know is not true), there is nothing that seems to effect this woman. There is something wrong with her, also, IMO. Anyone else notice this?

I was wondering about that too and I assumed they were medicated.

Me, I would be a blubbering snotty mess seeing and hearing what my child did to another person.

 

[Isabelle]

I could see this scenario. Especially if the knife was a switch blade, it could easily be kept from Travis' view before she extended the blade.

Everytime I use my cuisinart knife I think it would have been the perfect knife!

 

[WhoaIsMe]

The discussion has been on the impact of the church on this trial.

I think it will be brought up.

No doubt it will be brought up in trial. The DA will try to make him look like a lying hypocrite in order to mar his character enough to plant a seed in the jury's mind of a duplicitous man also capable of DV in order to save their clients life.

I hope the PA will find a way to establish that most religions (and all of the major ones ) have high moral codes that hardly anyone lives up to completely. The odds are good that someone on the jury may even have spiritual struggles or know of someone who does. If they can relate to it at all then they won't be snowed by a hatchet job on TA's character.

 

[Karmady]

The discussion has been on the impact of the church on this trial.

I think it will be brought up.

Are you allowed to base voir dire on religious affiliation in Ariz? The links I've found say there's no case law, but that the state constitution prohibits it. I wonder if the panel was voir dire'd on religion. There is an huge lds pop. in the phx area and my impression also is that there are lot of non-lds who are strongly biased against it. I know that the locals LOVE a good lds scandal, like the bestiality couple in the article I linked to a while ago. Also, there recently was a woman who's husband is a political player (the Mesa courthouse is actually named after him, iirc) who was accused of having an elicit sexual relationship with a teen-aged boy. It was all over the news, along with allegations that the bishops in their ward knew about it and swept it under the rug. I think she either pled or was convicted, but it was a huge scandal.

So, I have to wonder what the attitudes and affiliations of the jurors are. One person one the jury with a strong bias against the lds church could hang the jury. I actually think it's far more likely that religion, not gender, will be the key factor. And to be clear, I don't think anyone perceives jodi as a true member of the lds church. The reasonable assumption is that she joined to become more "marriage-eligible" to Travis.

eta: that would be "illicit," not "elicit" (durr). I googled it. Her name is Susan Brock and her husband is a county supervisor. The boy was 11 when she made contact and 14 when she had sex with him. Her daughter(who was around 18 yo when this all came about) also had sex with him. Susan got 13 years of a possible 15.

 

[LotusPawprint]

I personally don't hold the defense attorneys culpable - they have an immensely important job to do because I really don't want her to be successful on appeal. I just wish the fight for their client was sometimes a bit more balanced in terms of the victims. I don't expect them to begin espousing Travis' virtues but the motion to have him not called a victim because they felt it would endanger Jodi's defense really did rub me wrong.

At the same time - logically - I am grateful they're giving their all for their client. Emotionally is a much different matter though.

Thanks ftg for bringing this up about the public defenders.

I agree with BritsKate and other posters, PD's are overworked and underappreciated and I hope JA gets solid representation now so appeals fail later. Neither attorney looks thrilled but I'm sure they are doing the very best they can as any good professional would.

 

[popsicle]

Defense attorneys are a huge important part of the process. Nothing but respect from me. I couldn't do it. But without them the process wouldn't work and the truly innocent would never get a fair shot.

All IMO


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Just jumping off your thought if that's ok. I agree with the original poster in regards to Mr Nurmi. He is doing a good job without stooping to the level we have seen other defense lawyers drop to. My fear with JA is that this case will go to the end and then she will try to cop a plea. jmo

 

[LotusPawprint]

Are you allowed to base voir dire on religious affiliation in Ariz? The links I've found say there's no case law, but that the state constitution prohibits it. I wonder if the panel was voir dire'd on religion. There is an huge lds pop. in the phx area and my impression also is that there are lot of non-lds who are strongly biased against it. I know that the locals LOVE a good lds scandal, like the bestiality couple in the article I linked to a while ago. Also, there recently was a woman who's husband is a political player (the Mesa courthouse is actually named after him, iirc) who was accused of having an elicit sexual relationship with a teen-aged boy. It was all over the news, along with allegations that the bishops in their ward knew about it and swept it under the rug. I think she either pled or was convicted, but it was a huge scandal.

So, I have to wonder what the attitudes and affiliations of the jurors are. One person one the jury with a strong bias against the lds church could hang the jury. I actually think it's far more likely that religion, not gender, will be the key factor. And to be clear, I don't think anyone perceives jodi as a true member of the lds church. The reasonable assumption is that she joined to become more "marriage-eligible" to Travis.

bbm - Very interesting question. Is what's prohibited in the state constitution specific to asking a juror about his or her religious affiliation or is it general about asking a juror's feelings on religion?

I would think broad questions could be asked and a juror could choose to respond or not, or elaborate or not. I never got called for jury duty then but at the height of the Church sex abuse in Boston, I had friends and family who were asked about their affiliation and/or opinions on the church. A few were very outspoken that they would never judge or convict leaders of the church and others made it clear that these men should be held to the highest standards possible. Pretty sure all were excused from service.

 

[popsicle]

I imagine you are talking about me. People who are religious struggle with spiritual issues.

If one chooses a religion seriously like he did, then people try to live the teachings. I don't think he was going just for the social time. I think he was a believer.

He was not doing what is expected for very basic issues. The Mormon church is far more intense on the topic of premarital sex than a lot of churches.

So it was a struggle for him for he was changing to look for a woman more in line with what he wanted to be.

Is that negative? People who are into their religions have spiritual issues that they deal with. That is what it is all about.

Thanks Human and no, it wasn't directed toward you or anyone. I have family that are very Catholic and have just been thinking about this, that is all. Thank you for your thoughts and opinions.

 

[popsicle]

I'm just using your post as a jumping off point. We need to remember that Jodi decided to become a Mormon. This was a decision that she herself made. She had the same restrictions, if you will, as Travis because of the choice she made. Jodi not only had a sexual relationship with Travis, she moved on to a sexual relationship with another Mormon the day after she brutally killed Travis. If one is going to lay some sort of blame at Travis's feet because he did not live up to the restrictions of his chosen religion then one must also do the same of Jodi and the man she visited after killing Travis.

So, now that it has been established that both Travis and Jodi were not living their lives in the way of their chosen religion can the religion aspect please be dropped?

MOO

In fairness, Human was answering a question for me. That is all.

 

[Madeleine74]

I really like the prosecutor's style and also am very impressed that he is trying this case solo. For a DP case, no less, that is rare! Sharp, sharp man who misses absolutely nothing. I have zero doubt he will get a first degree conviction in this case.

To me the primary question of this case is whether JA will get life or the DP. I do not see how 12 people can find self defense when someone has continued to attack rather than run away and tried to hide the crime. I am confident she won't be acquitted.

The body language of the male defense attorney telegraphs how much he does not want to be defending this client and how unhappy he feels. That said, he has an obligation to provide the client with a defense, no matter how much he may abhor the client and the case. From a purely selfish standpoint I would have loved to see JA try to defend herself (acting as her own counsel). Oh that would have been amusing.

 

[Karmady]

I really like the prosecutor's style and also am very impressed that he is trying this case solo. For a DP case, no less, that is rare! Sharp, sharp man who misses absolutely nothing. I have zero doubt he will get a first degree conviction in this case.

To me the primary question of this case is whether JA will get life or the DP. I do not see how 12 people can find self defense when someone has continued to attack rather than run away and tried to hide the crime. I am confident she won't be acquitted.

The body language of the male defense attorney telegraphs how much he does not want to be defending this client and how unhappy he feels. That said, he has an obligation to provide the client with a defense, no matter how much he may abhor the client and the case. From a purely selfish standpoint I would have loved to see JA try to defend herself (acting as her own counsel). Oh that would have been amusing.

I have to say that, on the day I was there, his aggressive demeanor with Ryan Burns (his own witness, I think) was off-putting. In person, he doesn't look or act like a nice man interested in justice --but that's just my perception. And his personal comments about Nurmi were out of line, imo. I'm talking about "if he wants to say something to me . . ." That's total bush league, imo

 

[Blessed2Bme]

Does anyone know if it was 27 or 29 stab wounds TA received??I keep hearing/reading about both mentions.