IDK. I agree but then again, she was supposed to contact and see him that night. I wonder if her apartment had a regular phone that the girls shared. He could have thought she'd have called him on that or made contact from wherever she was, since they'd had plans? I guess his thought process would depend in part on the type of relationship they had.
IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #28
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IDK. I agree but then again, she was supposed to contact and see him that night. I wonder if her apartment had a regular phone that the girls shared. He could have thought she'd have called him on that or made contact from wherever she was, since they'd had plans? I guess his thought process would depend in part on the type of relationship they had.
But then this goes back to where was the concern during the night when he was supposedly expecting to hear from her? Instead he watched a game and goes to bed we're told.
But by that afternoon he's ready to involve police and parents and call her missing... With the key piece being: How did he know she hadn't been home and left already?
Good point. Perhaps he just crashed (for whatever reason). It seems to me that word could have traveled about her condition en route to 5N, perhaps as a result of talk about the altercation between ZO and CR. Or ... maybe he did know something earlier in the night, went to bed angry, but concern overtook anger later on?
Also, I suppose LS' previous comings and goings in light of their relationship might be a factor, i.e., whether she usually touched base with him, etc. In general, I do find JW's behavior a little odd, after the fact, as the PIs have noted.
Re: JW filing a missing person's report on the afternoon of June 3
I really don't find it surprising or odd. He would have had a lot more to worry about than the missing phone by then.
First, if he didn't know about the altercation already at this point, there's no doubt that as soon as he started calling around looking for Lauren (after he heard from Kilroy's) that he would have found out. So he would know that when Lauren was last seen, she was so intoxicated she couldn't even walk, that the people who saw them at Smallwood described CR as acting aggressively and inappropriately, and when others told him she should be taken home, he got in a physical fight and then left with Lauren -- literally picking her up and carrying/dragging her down an alley toward his apartment, alone. And that she hadn't been seen since.
What would you next? You would probably check to see if she was at home sleeping and then track down CR and find out if she was there. And it sounds like this is what happened. He got HT's key sometime shortly after picking up the phone (3ish). We don't know who talked to CR first or what he said, but we do know someone found him around the same time (Fri aft) -- Recall anon from Smallwood,:
This wasn't just a random chat where CR casually mentioned Lauren being at his place -- People were looking for her. And I think there's a reason Anon included that part at the end -- he was skeptical. It makes me wonder if someone talked to CR first, and he said he couldn't remember anything, and then MB jumped in with the cover story. (MOO)
HT also said she talked to JR that day, obviously looking for Lauren as well:
(BBM) Why is she stressing that he made it very clear that he was the last person to see Lauren and she believes him? My guess is that when JW, HT and others started looking for Lauren, they got the same kind of evasive, awkward and contradictory answers that we have all been analyzing here for months.
If you look back at the media reports from the first few days, there were a few more contradictory stories from neighbours that may have come from this day as well but it's hard to tell (The 'have you seen a little blond girl' and quote from a female neighbour about MB). And these are just what we know from the media -- who knows what other things they may have heard!
In any case, by 4 pm on Friday JW and others knew no one had spoken to Lauren and that the last people with her said she left their apartments 12 hours earlier. Plus they may have been telling stories that didn't add up. (HT says she believes JR, but that doesn't mean JW or anyone else did.)
I would have gone to the police too.
MOO.
I really don't find it surprising or odd. He would have had a lot more to worry about than the missing phone by then.
First, if he didn't know about the altercation already at this point, there's no doubt that as soon as he started calling around looking for Lauren (after he heard from Kilroy's) that he would have found out. So he would know that when Lauren was last seen, she was so intoxicated she couldn't even walk, that the people who saw them at Smallwood described CR as acting aggressively and inappropriately, and when others told him she should be taken home, he got in a physical fight and then left with Lauren -- literally picking her up and carrying/dragging her down an alley toward his apartment, alone. And that she hadn't been seen since.
What would you next? You would probably check to see if she was at home sleeping and then track down CR and find out if she was there. And it sounds like this is what happened. He got HT's key sometime shortly after picking up the phone (3ish). We don't know who talked to CR first or what he said, but we do know someone found him around the same time (Fri aft) -- Recall anon from Smallwood,:
This wasn't just a random chat where CR casually mentioned Lauren being at his place -- People were looking for her. And I think there's a reason Anon included that part at the end -- he was skeptical. It makes me wonder if someone talked to CR first, and he said he couldn't remember anything, and then MB jumped in with the cover story. (MOO)
HT also said she talked to JR that day, obviously looking for Lauren as well:
http://web.archive.org/web/20110616122255/http://www.lohud.com/article/20110613/NEWS02/106130325
(BBM) Why is she stressing that he made it very clear that he was the last person to see Lauren and she believes him? My guess is that when JW, HT and others started looking for Lauren, they got the same kind of evasive, awkward and contradictory answers that we have all been analyzing here for months.
If you look back at the media reports from the first few days, there were a few more contradictory stories from neighbours that may have come from this day as well but it's hard to tell (The 'have you seen a little blond girl' and quote from a female neighbour about MB). And these are just what we know from the media -- who knows what other things they may have heard!
In any case, by 4 pm on Friday JW and others knew no one had spoken to Lauren and that the last people with her said she left their apartments 12 hours earlier. Plus they may have been telling stories that didn't add up. (HT says she believes JR, but that doesn't mean JW or anyone else did.)
I would have gone to the police too.
MOO.
I said in that last post JW picked up the phone but I'm actually not sure if he did, or if it was just that the staff at Kilroy's told him to tell his friend to pick it up -- that's what it says in the link I posted above.
I wish we could hear from JW in terms of what he believes happend to LS. I'm pretty sure we know where his natural early suspicions rested. (multiple times confronting CR and JR, once with JW's father present). But I would be interested to know if he has changed his tune at all over the lapsed time of 20 months now? or if he still holds the same suspicions today as he did early on?
I just wish somebody would talk, even if it's fringe, friends, family of POI's etc. there has to be sources out here we can reach somehow. I want to know what the people closest to these people think happend!?! You know everyone around them has this deep down hunch, sort of thing going on. Where they've actually spent the time wondering about this themselves. Whether or not their cousin, brother, son, grandson, neighbor, may have been responsible, at least in some way, for all of this. I'm ready to hear from those people. If we cant hear from the players themsleves, I want to hear from the fringe about these guys. Where's a well funded, well intentioned Tony Gatto when you need him. To go in on the ground to these places and get real life answers.
I just wish somebody would talk, even if it's fringe, friends, family of POI's etc. there has to be sources out here we can reach somehow. I want to know what the people closest to these people think happend!?! You know everyone around them has this deep down hunch, sort of thing going on. Where they've actually spent the time wondering about this themselves. Whether or not their cousin, brother, son, grandson, neighbor, may have been responsible, at least in some way, for all of this. I'm ready to hear from those people. If we cant hear from the players themsleves, I want to hear from the fringe about these guys. Where's a well funded, well intentioned Tony Gatto when you need him. To go in on the ground to these places and get real life answers.
You know, on those early PT threads, 'Ray Anastasio' said that JR told his roommates they all went back to his place.
He was the one that first made public (on the PT board) a lot of info, including knowing JR was involved before it was made public. As soon as someone told him he should go to the police and tell them what he knew, he totally backtracked, and claimed to know nothing except what he heard from his friends (JR's roommates). At which point the person who challenged him backed off, and apologized in case it sounded like he was going to 'get him in trouble'.
He also swears that JR took an LE polygraph, because that's what the roommates said. (He didn't, as we know)
So were these guys covering for JR, or did JR lie to them?
I know they were away, but I hope they were still interviewed by LE. And that they told the truth. (There seemed to be no shortage of people jumping in to defend and/or cover for the POI on PT, so I'm not very confident they would have.)
He was the one that first made public (on the PT board) a lot of info, including knowing JR was involved before it was made public. As soon as someone told him he should go to the police and tell them what he knew, he totally backtracked, and claimed to know nothing except what he heard from his friends (JR's roommates). At which point the person who challenged him backed off, and apologized in case it sounded like he was going to 'get him in trouble'.
He also swears that JR took an LE polygraph, because that's what the roommates said. (He didn't, as we know)
So were these guys covering for JR, or did JR lie to them?
I know they were away, but I hope they were still interviewed by LE. And that they told the truth. (There seemed to be no shortage of people jumping in to defend and/or cover for the POI on PT, so I'm not very confident they would have.)
To assume JW knew or was quickly informed of all the previous nights events that LS was involved in, you would have to assume that JW spoke with ZO or someone that heard the interaction that caused the fight, he would have had to seen the SW video of them stumbling away, he would have to had spoken to the wittness that seen LS being semi-piggy backed or pulled to 5 N.... and last but not least you would have to think that HT would had already spoken to JR about LS departures time and that time was relayed to JW while picking up key...
It seems very unlikely by 2:00 the next day he had learned of all the previous nights events
that you think it's likely he would know. It took LE 3 days and a search warrant to see the condition LS was in leaving SW.... AKH is right to think the reporting is early and suspiciuos.
The only way I give him a pass , is because I do believe CS would have had told them to report LS missing immiediatly... I believe that JW reached point of thinking , who's phone number would LS know and call if she needed help? I would think CS would be at the top of that list and CS instructed JW to contact LE imiediatley
There were at least 4 guys there, some are reported to be friends with JW, and JW's friends at Smallwood knew about it right away.
They didn't need the video or the witness, because people were there and saw it in real time.
People at Smallwood saw the altercation. People at the bar and throughout the night saw Lauren and CR 'helping' Lauren walk -- Some gave quotes to the media or the PIs, like the "students" quoted in the article that said CR was acting aggressively and bothering Lauren.
Why by 2 pm? She was reported missing at 4:30
I'm sure you're right about that!
I believe he knew about Lauren's condition and what happened the night before. Even if he didn't, he must have known, at the very least, that the POI said she left their place(s) at 4 am, and never made it home. That's the main reason I don't find it suspicious that he reported her missing.
On June 24, 2011 "Ray" was saying on PT that he did not know who administered the polygraph. He also said that the call from JR's phone to DR was to ask DR to come up and give LS a ride home.
As I said earlier we keep reaching a point where we're just speculating on speculation. I think if we apply the reasonable, prudent man scenario JW did jump quickly to a point of believing or knowing something was amiss. But that is based on the public record, or assumed public record.
But then that's really about as far as we can think it thru because we don't know what he might've known and when. Or how he knew it.
And without that information I think he still needs to be considered a front runner on the POI list as much or nearly as much as those at 5N. Especially since the popular scenarios that revolve around 5N should have some type of physical evidence that LE doesn't appear to have found. And even that is questionable because we don't know what they might've found that is not public. Maybe just lacking some other piece of the puzzle.
Point being the 5N scenarios actually have a 'ground zero' so to speak, where LE could focus on evidence collection. If something happened away from 5N, in another possible scenario, all of a sudden wherever 'ground zero' may be could be anywhere. Of course LE could've just missed crucial evidence too..
Something that I'd be curious about is the search warrant to search the landfill. I thought news reports said the landfill required a search warrant. You can't just go get a search warrant to search a property on a fishing trip. You have to articulate a theory, a reason, something with some cause why you believe the landfill search is necessary and likely fruitful. So what was that reason?
Something I was recently thinking about, and this goes back to the parents recently seemingly putting JW back into the suspicion pool after it seemed they were confident of his innocence previously. And actually, it was the PI's who first didn't give him the pass the parent's did. Then the parents more recently backed off their support somewhat. Anyway... The parents have put so much public focus on CR and 5N that they might've tempered potential tips that might've pointed other directions. Look at it this way, nobody wants to believe their friend would be guilty of something like this. But if something a friend did wasn't sitting with them right, all the focus on the 5N guys could temper the questions they have about that friend... such as: "It couldn't be my friend involved... Plus, they're sure it's CR and those guys. They said JR knows more than he's saying. I shouldn't be thinking my friend could be involved".
But then that's really about as far as we can think it thru because we don't know what he might've known and when. Or how he knew it.
And without that information I think he still needs to be considered a front runner on the POI list as much or nearly as much as those at 5N. Especially since the popular scenarios that revolve around 5N should have some type of physical evidence that LE doesn't appear to have found. And even that is questionable because we don't know what they might've found that is not public. Maybe just lacking some other piece of the puzzle.
Point being the 5N scenarios actually have a 'ground zero' so to speak, where LE could focus on evidence collection. If something happened away from 5N, in another possible scenario, all of a sudden wherever 'ground zero' may be could be anywhere. Of course LE could've just missed crucial evidence too..
Something that I'd be curious about is the search warrant to search the landfill. I thought news reports said the landfill required a search warrant. You can't just go get a search warrant to search a property on a fishing trip. You have to articulate a theory, a reason, something with some cause why you believe the landfill search is necessary and likely fruitful. So what was that reason?
Something I was recently thinking about, and this goes back to the parents recently seemingly putting JW back into the suspicion pool after it seemed they were confident of his innocence previously. And actually, it was the PI's who first didn't give him the pass the parent's did. Then the parents more recently backed off their support somewhat. Anyway... The parents have put so much public focus on CR and 5N that they might've tempered potential tips that might've pointed other directions. Look at it this way, nobody wants to believe their friend would be guilty of something like this. But if something a friend did wasn't sitting with them right, all the focus on the 5N guys could temper the questions they have about that friend... such as: "It couldn't be my friend involved... Plus, they're sure it's CR and those guys. They said JR knows more than he's saying. I shouldn't be thinking my friend could be involved".
I'm not sure I'm following your question??
Speculation would be trying to guess what JW did or didn't know (and when). The same as it would be trying to theorize about the 2nd phone call from JR's (or the one to DR and speculating it's not what it's reported to have been).
Public record would be the consistent parts of the story that have been told in the media... From parents, LE, or even the PI's.
We can know (as much as we can know anything for certain in light of some questionable reporting) that there was information out there about LS' condition at 2:30AM or whatever by some fairly consistent reports about SW witnesses but we can only guess as to whether someone told that info to JW. Let alone when (or even who told him).
I keep coming back to this: We don't know of any way for him to know if she'd been home and already left by 2PM (or whenever he arrived with a key). That's why some of the speculation about him knowing she'd been messed up and with CR doesn't really get us anywhere. How does he know she didn't get home that morning?
Even if we assume he was called at 3AM and told she was with CR and she was really messed up, at 2PM how does he know she hasn't been home and left and he just missed her?
There may be a plausible answer to that. LE may know that plausible answer. But it's never been shared officially, or unofficially, or even rumored that I've seen. So for us to answer how he knows she's not been home and left already we at best would just have to guess. And at that point we might as well guess it's because he had something to do with the disappearance and knows exactly what happened. Both things would be equally as plausible as speculation wouldn't they?
i get what you're saying but to me it's just much simpler to assume he saw/heard signs that something was wrong rather than assuming he was cleverly hiding the fact that he hurt/killed his girlfriend by pretending to search for her. if he went to her apt and there wasn't clear evidence that she HAD been home then of course he'd continue to worry. i'd be much more suspicious if he called in the missing persons at 7am (no reason to assume anything that early) or if he hadn't called at all (at some point the boyfriend in a normal relationship would realize there was a problem).
We do know that she was taking medications for long QT which may (or may) not have been in a daily medication container which he could have checked. There are other pills that a young woman might take that come packed in such a way that one can tell if someone has taken her medication for the day. We do not know that JW checked her medication, but it is a possible way for him to have known that she had not come home and left again.
But why should we give him the benefit of the doubt? We don't know him. LE hasn't been able to make any arrests. If 5N is a crime scene, evidence there must be minimal or incomplete at best (considering LE's actions or lack thereof).
Why when assigning speculation do we immediately speculate in what ways the 5N guys are lying and what methods they must've utilized to hide the crime while going the other way entirely with JW?
And I'm not saying I'm sure he did it... I'm saying I'm sure we shouldn't cross him off the list and I just don't believe he should get all this benefit of the doubt. If the 5N guys are PsOI 1A, JW should be 1B. He's the boyfriend and he'd have a jealousy motive.
No, they are not equally plausible as speculation, IMO, because you are only considering one question based on one piece of the story -- HT's limited account of her interaction with JW on the day Lauren went missing (from the early Lohud article where she describes him getting the call about the phone and picking up her key to check the apartment before reporting Lauren missing) as if those are the complete known facts. They are not. At the time that account was given, the names of the POI were not known. In the later article that I quoted, she fills in the blanks about that day and explains that she spoke to JR on Friday 'when they realized she was missing' and that he told her the story of Lauren leaving at 4 am.
So even if we take all of the other witness accounts out of the equation, we can assume that JW reported Lauren missing not because he knew without question she had not been home, but because he didn't know that she had. I.e. They had JR's story that she left his apartment at 4 am to walk home, and no evidence that she ever got there. That is the context for her being reported missing.
Do you only find JW's actions suspicious, or do you also find it odd that Lauren's two girlfriends filed the missing person's report that afternoon?
I agree that JW should not be crossed off the list. I find some of his actions questionable since Lauren's disappearance, especially his refusal to take a polygraph. (but I know you don't care about that one!
) That said, there's not much to speculate about. If the most suspicious thing he has done is report Lauren missing TOO EARLY, when she really was legitimately missing, then well...
On the other hand, the POI at 5 N were the last to see Lauren, by their own accounts, and have told conflicting statements. Their stories do not make sense independently, or together. There's no way to reconcile what they themselves have told the media (via their lawyers) with any plausible scenario where they had nothing to hide. That's why the questions keep coming back to them.
My opinion only!
I find it highly questionable that when a college kid is not in her room at 2PM with no way of knowing if she'd been there previously, they were ready to report and declare her missing at 4:30PM. But why the two girls would be ready to report it, again we can only speculate on speculation.
What did the police think when they got the report?
Is there something missing in all of this that we don't know that would've increased the urgency?
I don't really consider the stories of the 5N guys all that far afield since we're just hearing 2nd and 3rd hand accounts mixed with some bad reporting. The gist of their stories seems to match. Whether they made up their story or told the exact truth I wouldn't expect 2nd and 3rd hand accounts to be perfect accounts. Filter out some noise and you get the same basic account. If their stories didn't match closely, or if they told someone a wildly different version, somebody would be sitting in jail.
But back to JW's quick realization she was missing... It doesn't have to be he was involved. Maybe he was told something. And maybe the person that told him actually knew more than he/she said. Maybe that person was covering for themself or someone else. Maybe they did follow LS and CR and waited to see what happened next? But again... speculating on speculation..
I'd hope if JW was sitting in a room for questioning that you'd be harder on him and more skeptical of him than you are being here. I just don't think we know enough to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Put it this way- If we knew for a fact she did walk out of 5N wouldn't he be POI #1... and probably by a lot... if and until he had a solid alibi anyway.
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