TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, Nashville, 29 Nov 1969 #1

[Backwoods]

I checked into that the other day. Dr P was not a forensic pathologist. Consider the discrepancies in the postmortem analysis of Marcia Trimble's death, particularly regarding time of death. I asked December if she recalled any remarks about livor mortis, but she doesn't.

http://books.google.com/books?id=3M...nepage&q=dr michael petrone nashville&f=false

Thanks for the link; that's interesting and helpful.

Not discounting Dr. P's opinion, because it seems some coroners, though not M.E.s, have knowledge and experience enough to make very valuable contributions -- but I DO wish, of course, there had been an M.E. on the case (Kathy's, I mean) and an autopsy. I wonder if it being holiday time played any role in those steps not being taken... oh, well.

bessie, it seems like a forensic pathologist could take a look NOW (and maybe one has, in some of the cold case investigation) at the case and at the crime scene photos and make some determinations about things such as possible types of weapons involved, livor mortis, etc.

One thing I've wondered is whether SOME of the extensive "bruising" December has heard about may have in fact been livor mortis, observed by laypersons. I think December mentioned some of it was in an area of Kathy's body that made it seem the bruising was "from the rape" -- and of course that could indeed be -- but maybe bruising and livor kind of blended at places...?

December, what about Kathy's face -- did your dad say whether she appeared to have been struck or beaten in that area?

 

[December]

I checked into that the other day. Dr P was not a forensic pathologist. Consider the discrepancies in the postmortem analysis of Marcia Trimble's death, particularly regarding time of death. I asked December if she recalled any remarks about livor mortis, but she doesn't.

http://books.google.com/books?id=3MBPsta9_j0C&lpg=PT63&ots=caz17zXZCv&dq=dr%20michael%20petrone%20nashville&pg=PT63#v=onepage&q=dr%20michael%20petrone%20nashville&f=false

One big difference between Marcia and Kathy (in case someone doesn't know) is Marcia was missing 33 days. Kathy was only missing 36 hours. So, this makes a big difference.

I am going to look up the day time temperatures during the pertinent time period and do a post. I think this is one reason it has to be fairly close is because it was only really cold at night. And she was outside. There are birds and insects in the winter in Tennessee. And other creatures.

Wait, I am mixing up time of death with time at the location where she was found. Now, if we consider she was held somewhere secure from some of the aforementioned things .. yes, her time of death could move a little more.

But, we still have to have time for bruises to form. Besides the bruises mentioned in regard to the rape in the Scene. I mean the ones from the beating since these would be less likely to be affected by liver mortis.

 

[December]

Thanks for the link; that's interesting and helpful.

Not discounting Dr. P's opinion, because it seems some coroners, though not M.E.s, have knowledge and experience enough to make very valuable contributions -- but I DO wish, of course, there had been an M.E. on the case (Kathy's, I mean) and an autopsy. I wonder if it being holiday time played any role in those steps not being taken... oh, well.

bessie, it seems like a forensic pathologist could take a look NOW (and maybe one has, in some of the cold case investigation) at the case and at the crime scene photos and make some determinations about things such as possible types of weapons involved, livor mortis, etc.

One thing I've wondered is whether SOME of the extensive "bruising" December has heard about may have in fact been livor mortis, observed by laypersons. I think December mentioned some of it was in an area of Kathy's body that made it seem the bruising was "from the rape" -- and of course that could indeed be -- but maybe bruising and livor kind of blended at places...?

December, what about Kathy's face -- did your dad say whether she appeared to have been struck or beaten in that area?

I do wish there had been an autopsy because some of these questions would be definitively answered at this point. However, the case has been combed through by various detectives over the years. Including in years using methods more like we are used to now. They are looking at photos and various types of evidence that may be in the file (such as perhaps a detailed description provided by the coroner who examined Kathy's body.. he surely noted bruising, cuts, and things of that nature that could be seen just looking at her.. maybe more, but at least that).

The Scene mentions the bruising from the very severe rape. However, she was lying on her back when they found her. So, there's that to consider. There probably were bruises. But, there would also be pooled blood unless she had been in a totally different position prior and had only been in the lot very briefly (I don't know that this is true, just this is the only way I can fit that together).

This is why I refer more to the beating since those bruises weren't only on one side of her. But, I do not know where specifically they were. My father was upset by seeing them. So, maybe they were to her face.. I never thought about that.. I will ask. I am not sure why those aren't mentioned in the Scene. Maybe he just felt it was redundant?

 

[Backwoods]

For anyone interested here is the complete timeline for DeBardeleben

PDF link ... http://maamodt.asp.radford.edu/Psyc 405/serial killers/Debardeleben, Mike _fall 2007_.pdf

Probably the quickest way to eliminate him as a suspect is to try to narrow down where he was during November 1969

So far we know he had lived in Texas , Little Rock Arkansas , West Virginia etc .... but during his counterfeit days he often went cross country on the interstates ... and would stop at every little town to cash in his fake money.

Arnie M., we have referred to that same timeline in the other thread that I mentioned in discussing Mike DeB. It is a pretty good one -- I think we did find a notable omission or two and a couple of inaccuracies, but it is the best we found for a straight timeline.

That IS from where I was referring to the 1966 kidnapping/assault on a "young girl" -- charges later dropped -- but I've not been able to find out just HOW young. Many of DeB's victims (kidnapping/sexual assault) were young/teens (for that matter, so were his wives), but I'm thinking this one may have been even younger, more like Kathy's age, but I can't confirm that yet. To me, there's often (certainly not always) a difference -- as regards the "type" of perp -- between, say, a 17-year-old victim and a 12-year-old one, so I am really hoping to find out if that young girl was very young.

Stephen G. Michaud's Lethal Shadow (also released as Beyond Cruel) is, I guess, the "definitive" book on Mike DeB; I have it -- but I just wish it had an index! It skips around chronologically a lot and it is hard to track stuff down in it at times. Good book, though, well worth reading if interested in learning more about MD.

 

[December]

Agreed! Photos would be so helpful. Other than crime scene photos, just a picture of the property back then would be useful. I've scoured the internet trying to find one, but to no avail. I even started searching property records the other day but I ran out of time and didn't get very far. I'd just like to know how much of that space was occupied, and how were the buildings situated. Backwoods inquired about an alley. Was there an alley which ran alongside of KK and opened onto the vacant lot? That could mean K was abducted as she walked by the KK and dragged into the lot.

thank you for looking for photos. i have done the same thing over and over.. just trying to get an idea of what the area looked like back then.

I don't know for sure how it was back then.. but now there is the alley and a road that run along two sides of the lot. The lot, now, is pretty exposed.

But, yes, it is very possible she was snatched on her way into the KK and pulled behind it. His vehicle may have been there.

I think it is possible the vehicle is the crime scene where most of it takes place. He could move around if anyone got interested in the vehicle.

ETA

So, in that case, leaving her in the lot would be returning her as close as possible to where she was taken.

 

[Backwoods]

I can't find anything that places DeBardeleben in Tennessee. Maybe someone else will come up with something. There's also the fact that his wife was eight months pregnant at the time. Not that he was a model husband by any stretch, but he might have been less likely to travel the highways around that time. :dunno:

He was definitely in Tennessee at times -- the final takedown of him as "the Mall Passer" counterfeiter happened near Knoxville -- but I don't know about as early as 1969. Not sure when his earlier stint at counterfeiting began, right off hand -- they'd caught him once before -- nor whether he traveled as much to pass those bills, which were $100s rather than the $20s he produced in his second go-round.

FWIW, according to Michaud's book, the wife who gave birth in Jan. 1970 had actually obtained a Mexican divorce in Aug. 1969 so I think Mike DeB. and she were not "together" at the time of Kathy's death.

There is some evidence, I think, that MD had a fake identity set up in North Carolina, which is pretty close; I'll see if I can find when that dates to -- and one WS poster said (in another thread) that he is thought to have had one of his "safe houses" there (but I've not heard that elsewhere, that I remember). IIRC, he had a few scattered around, I think, dumpy places where he, among other things, took abduction victims sometimes.

 

[December]

I tend to think Kathy's killer kept her close by, using the alley to gain access to the field and dispose of her little body. I think he had knowledge of the alley because he was living or working in the area. He may have planned this abduction for this particular weekend and drove around looking for his victim. Poor Kathy was the victim of opportunity. Any child could have stumbled into his hunting ground.

I wonder if the 1969 suspect list included:
*Someone with access to a warehouse (during the Thanksgiving holiday weekend) near the abduction site. Maybe even a security guard?
*A neighbor who was left home alone (rest of family traveling away for holiday) that weekend.

Obviously, this was a sick monster who possibly wanted to keep poor Kathy alive for his own cruel desires for as long as possible. I wouldn't be shocked to learn that she had accidentally choked trying to free herself from the gag, swallowing the sock in her struggle -- only to have him try to pull the sock out. His attempted removal may have resulted in the tearing or cutting of her little bobbie sock in two.
The mention of the alley makes me wonder if there were any tire tracks in the alley that were photographed that might lead somewhere....hmmmm

And it would be good to find out where DeBardeleben was in Nov 1969...

Someone working at a location like a warehouse where he might have been working alone due to the holiday (and resentful of that fact) is a possibility.

There is a railyard not to far from where this happened (it is across Nolensville Rd. and away from town).

It could be someone who was even "looking after" someone else's property if that property had, for example, an outbuilding or cellar. When time for the property owners to return rolled around, there would be no reason for the police to look at that locale because they property owners hadn't even been in town.

This is why I keep thinking about the large Dunn property. It was nearby. Who knows whether they were home or visiting someone, but it was two older ladies in a large house on a huge property that included outbuildings. Now, access is more controlled because it is a zoo. But, it is possible there would be a backway into the property in 1969.

There most likely would have been construction going on in the area, so there might have been partly finished buidings or construction trailers. 100 Oaks Mall had just opened in 1968. Any time a mall moves in there are things that build up around the mall.

There were a lot of possibilities..

And the attacker, if he was from out of town, unless he did very similar crimes elsewhere and the police can trace down someone who remembers this individual being around.. it might not even be solvable. but, then again, unless he dropped dead in early 1970, i think he had to have done it again.

I theorized the same thing about the bobbie sock. I am not sure if that is what happened, but the fact it's cut in half does make me think..

However, bobbie socks tend to have a thick cuff. I don't know what exactly hers were like though.

 

[December]

Or a case of necrophilia. I don't know, but an examination of the body would reveal whether the bondage occurred pre- or postmortem. The killer might not have known that, though.

I will ask and see what they know about what attacks took place when..

Most of the violence occurred while she was alive.

I think a flurry of violent actions occurred when she was dying (just a guess).

Being we're talking about a murderer, he might have continued his abuse after she died.

However, I feel (just a feeling) that for some reason he needed to wrap things up after she died. He kept her for a while afterward, but then left her at the lot.

It wouldn't have been practical to go back to the lot to abuse her, so after he left her, he had to be pretty much done with her. Although he could enjoy watching other people crying and being upset at what he had done. Krispy Kreme, in fact, provided an excellent excuse and setting for him to lie in wait.

In fact, this makes me wonder if he was someone who spent a lot of his time lingering around KK. Maybe he worked there, IDK. But, I wouldn't be too surprised to learn if it was just considered a natural thing for him to be at KK.

This could also provide him a way to gradually talk to Kathy (if he was someone she knew). Maybe he said hello to her and her little friends every time they came in for doughnuts. she still may never have gotten into a car with him, but she also might not have screamed if he came up to her outside. she'd just think he wanted to talk to her for a second. (speculation)

 

[Backwoods]

I really think it was a knife as well, but since I do not know.. and since a dog collar would be in keeping with what some of these individuals do/use, I'm thinking that over.

However, I am having a little more trouble with what kinds of collars people could get in 1969. I suppose the guy could custom make something..

Also, I guess I need to ask if these cuts go all the way around her neck.. I kind of had the impression they were here and there, but I do not actually know that.

I have my own theory about the cuts being part of torture done to achieve a specific purpose (besides simply torture), but I do not know if that is true. I kind of hope it is because this means they would have left her alone a bit while they got high. So, basically, I need a lot more information about the cuts.

Both types of chain collars (like the photo you posted and the one I posted) would have been available in 1969.

I hope you will be able to get some definitive information about all the questions that have been raised from your LE contact, December. I think everybody is just looking at what we "do have" -- from the various sources, newspaper, your family account, etc. -- and theorizing. I want you to have some answers, for your own peace of mind -- and if it happens that there are parts you can share, so much the better -- we can all theorize better then!

I think there must be good reasons why LE from 1969 and your family believed that Kathy was held for a time. It doesn't absolutely necessarily mean that she WAS -- although I am leaning that way, I guess, largely because of what you have had to say -- but I think that had to have been the prevailing theory. It's interesting to hear other ideas, though -- but I do understand why you worry about the "fact-waters" getting muddied.

The truth's out there -- somewhere, somehow, I hope you/we can get a handle on it and get you some answers. Hang in with us!

 

[December]

He was definitely in Tennessee at times -- the final takedown of him as "the Mall Passer" counterfeiter happened near Knoxville -- but I don't know about as early as 1969. Not sure when his earlier stint at counterfeiting began, right off hand -- they'd caught him once before -- nor whether he traveled as much to pass those bills, which were $100s rather than the $20s he produced in his second go-round.

FWIW, according to Michaud's book, the wife who gave birth in Jan. 1970 had actually obtained a Mexican divorce in Aug. 1969 so I think Mike DeB. and she were not "together" at the time of Kathy's death.

There is some evidence, I think, that MD had a fake identity set up in North Carolina, which is pretty close; I'll see if I can find when that dates to -- and one WS poster said (in another thread) that he is thought to have had one of his "safe houses" there (but I've not heard that elsewhere, that I remember). IIRC, he had a few scattered around, I think, dumpy places where he, among other things, took abduction victims sometimes.

this is another thing!

There was a lot of construction and upheaval going on in the part of Nashville where Kathy lived. in 1969, 100 Oaks Mall (right up thompson lane) was a brand new fancy mall. it was tremendously popular. but, just a few years before, it had been all a wooded area owned by one woman .. it had many beautiful oak trees that she begged the mall developer not to cut down (if he left one, it is a miracle).

in addition to the mall, an office building mostly for vanderbilt hospital was built. in fact, vanderbilt still has offices at this location.

various little shopping center and restaurants were being built. housing was being built because there were some other neighborhoods right around there that were growing. even kathy's neighborhood, from what i read, continued to have houses built in it.

the lost generation was out buying houses, getting married, and having children.

there were baby boomers getting their first cars. some of the older ones in that generation were even starting their adult lives in homes of their own (or apartments, as the case may be).. so it was an area in transition.

around this time, the fairgrounds burned. not completely, but i need to get my dates straight on that because that would be an odd area that no one would go since it was a little bit out of the neighborhood, but not much. especially not by car.

why wouldn't he just leave her there? idk. maybe he wanted her to be found? maybe he gave her a last request and her request was to go home. so he sent her back to her neighborhood.. just not alive.

 

[Backwoods]

December, I said in an earlier post that I wanted to mention a little more about the WS thread in which some other posters and I had thought about Mike Debardeleben as a suspect. It's the case of a 16-year-old girl, Carlene Tengelsen, who went missing in June 1972 from Macon, GA.

Possibly you may have "stopped by" her thread, as I know you have read around on WS pretty widely since you joined. It's here:

GA GA - Carlene Tengelsen, 16, Macon, 21 June 1972 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community



Mike D.'s name came up in that thread as a "possible" for really different reasons than why I thought of him in Kathy's case -- mostly because, I think, that Carlene disappeared on what was supposed to be a brief trip to a local mall/shopping center and Mike D. was the "mall passer", etc. (Carlene was never found, so we don't KNOW what happened to her, so there are no clues there ....) Also because Mike D. was known in numerous cases to abduct victims in their own vehicles and then return them (these were the ones he let live) very close to the abduction site or their homes -- and in Carlene's case, it appears the perp MAY have abducted her in her own vehicle (family station wagon) and then RETURNED the vehicle to very close by. And here's the reason I wanted to mention this case again -- just a weird little connection:

The car showed up parked in front of a Krispy Kreme!

Now I KNOW that almost certainly that IS just a weird coincidence, but I sure think about it every time I come to Kathy's thread. (I think about Carlene's case a lot, anyhow, but...)

(But just for a little smile, here, amongst the grim: If we could just find out that Mike D. was addicted to Krispy Kreme doughnuts, I guess we could solve both these cases!!)

Anyhow, that odd little coincidence (which, again, I think is surely just that and only that) made me hunt about a little bit and I did find this, which I thought was worth mentioning for those who have asked about large vehicles regularly in the area, etc.:

From your Krispy Kreme "History" link -- it won't let me cut and paste, but in the 40s/50s section, it says: "So Krispy Kreme built a mix plant and developed a distribution system that delivered the perfect dry doughnut mix to each Krispy Kreme store."

http://www.krispykreme.com/about-us/history

I would think that means there was doughnut mix being trucked in, probably, to KKs throughout the South? One of those vehicles wouldn't seem out of place near a KK.

Also, just one more little point I found interesting, don't know if it is likely to be helpful -- according to Wikipedia, Krispy Kreme was at one time (way pre-1969, though) sort of centered in Nashville:

Krispy Kreme's founder Vernon Rudolph and his uncle purchased Joseph LeBeouf's donut shop on Broad Street in Paducah, Kentucky along with a secret recipe for yeast-raised doughnuts in 1933 acquired from a New Orleans French Chef. Rudolph began selling the yeast doughnuts in Paducah and delivered them on his bicycle. The operation was moved to Nashville, Tennessee and other family members joined to meet the customer demand. Rudolph sold his interest in the Nashville store in 1937 and opened a doughnut shop in Winston-Salem, North Carolina selling to grocery stores and then directly to individual customers. The first store in North Carolina was located in a rented building on South Main Street in Winston-Salem in what is now called historic Old Salem.

Krispy Kreme - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[December]

Both types of chain collars (like the photo you posted and the one I posted) would have been available in 1969.

I hope you will be able to get some definitive information about all the questions that have been raised from your LE contact, December. I think everybody is just looking at what we "do have" -- from the various sources, newspaper, your family account, etc. -- and theorizing. I want you to have some answers, for your own peace of mind -- and if it happens that there are parts you can share, so much the better -- we can all theorize better then!

I think there must be good reasons why LE from 1969 and your family believed that Kathy was held for a time. It doesn't absolutely necessarily mean that she WAS -- although I am leaning that way, I guess, largely because of what you have had to say -- but I think that had to have been the prevailing theory. It's interesting to hear other ideas, though -- but I do understand why you worry about the "fact-waters" getting muddied.

The truth's out there -- somewhere, somehow, I hope you/we can get a handle on it and get you some answers. Hang in with us!

Thank you, Backwoods.

I am really going to try to get some kind of information from the police about the captivity thing. I have managed to find another couple of articles (posted) from 12/3/69 that definitely mention she was held in captivity.

So, I think there must be some kind of evidence they can point to in regard to that.

At first, I don't know if my family knew what to think. Everyone was really in shock. Not only that Kathy was dead, then not only that she was brutally murdered, but that it was the worst child murder ever in Nashville. Last I heard, it still was. this is absolutely horrifying surreal.. how can that be? I got protected from knowing some of it... So, there were parts of the Scene article that were shocking to me.

For the longest time I thought a guy took her and drove around with her in his truck (I thought it was a truck.. the blue truck story, which I remember little about). And then, he killed her and threw her out. And in that case, the lot was just where he happened to be passing at the moment, it was a little bit out of the way (ETA: it wasn't right in the middle of the busy intersection, is what I mean, it wasn't very secluded) and he was driving by, so that is where he threw her out. He didn't even think of it having any significance. Then, he went along on his way as though none of this horrifying stuff had happened. I don't know how long I initially thought that though.

then, I started being told more.

i wish i had gotten Daddy to write down everything he could remember about Kathy and her murder and everything else. Just a really detailed document maybe sworn in front of a notary or someone. i kind of never considered the day would come when it'd be me who'd have to try to figure it out.

i appreciate everyone's help. i'm just worried and protective of Kathy. i don't mean anyone here is trying to hurt her. i don't even know what i mean. i am mad at the Banner. they were mean to her. i guess that is what i mean.

and i'm frustrated i don't have more pieces to the puzzle. or more proof. or something. so everyone has something better to use.

 

[Backwoods]

You are a doing a more-than-fine job, December.

I'm a little unclear -- were you born already when Kathy died? Were you a very young child -- what?

I know I can't, though I try to, imagine the impact her murder would have had on your family and on you. I can see how it would be as you describe, having sort of a "compact version" of the event in your mind, then it enlarging and growing worse as you got older and learned more....

I bet it was hard on your dad, sharing this stuff with you. He probably wanted you to know "there is danger out there" -- yet he wanted to shield you, too. I am glad that he shared as much with you as he did. It makes the job you are trying to do now a LITTLE easier.

 

[December]

December, I said in an earlier post that I wanted to mention a little more about the WS thread in which some other posters and I had thought about Mike Debardeleben as a suspect. It's the case of a 16-year-old girl, Carlene Tengelsen, who went missing in June 1972 from Macon, GA.

Possibly you may have "stopped by" her thread, as I know you have read around on WS pretty widely since you joined. It's here:

GA GA - Carlene Tengelsen, 16, Macon, 21 June 1972 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community



Mike D.'s name came up in that thread as a "possible" for really different reasons than why I thought of him in Kathy's case -- mostly because, I think, that Carlene disappeared on what was supposed to be a brief trip to a local mall/shopping center and Mike D. was the "mall passer", etc. (Carlene was never found, so we don't KNOW what happened to her, so there are no clues there ....) Also because Mike D. was known in numerous cases to abduct victims in their own vehicles and then return them (these were the ones he let live) very close to the abduction site or their homes -- and in Carlene's case, it appears the perp MAY have abducted her in her own vehicle (family station wagon) and then RETURNED the vehicle to very close by. And here's the reason I wanted to mention this case again -- just a weird little connection:

The car showed up parked in front of a Krispy Kreme!

Now I KNOW that almost certainly that IS just a weird coincidence, but I sure think about it every time I come to Kathy's thread. (I think about Carlene's case a lot, anyhow, but...)

(But just for a little smile, here, amongst the grim: If we could just find out that Mike D. was addicted to Krispy Kreme doughnuts, I guess we could solve both these cases!!)

Anyhow, that odd little coincidence (which, again, I think is surely just that and only that) made me hunt about a little bit and I did find this, which I thought was worth mentioning for those who have asked about large vehicles regularly in the area, etc.:

From your Krispy Kreme "History" link -- it won't let me cut and paste, but in the 40s/50s section, it says: "So Krispy Kreme built a mix plant and developed as distribution system that delivered the perfect dry doughnut mix to each Krispy Kreme store."

http://www.krispykreme.com/about-us/history

I would think that means there was doughnut mix being trucked in, probably, to KKs throughout the South? One of those vehicles wouldn't seem out of place near a KK.

Also, just one more little point I found interesting, don't know if it is likely to be helpful -- according to Wikipedia, Krispy Kreme was at one time (way pre-1969, though) sort of centered in Nashville:





Krispy Kreme - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I remember just a girl who was taken from a mall and I remember theorizing the murderer wanted a girl who had a car (as opposed to one walking), I will go and see dear Carlene's thread.

I hate murderers! Here these nice girls running errands, going skating, minding their own business are just snatched away from their loved ones and brutalized and killed. They might have been mothers or teachers or websleuth posters.. who knows! but, even if they only sat in their parents' basements reading romance novels for 40 straight years, they would be so much better than a murderer ever saw the day of! i digress..

KK has delicious doughnuts. so, i guess the murderer probably does like them. i haven't eaten a doughnut in quite some time despite the fact i have googled kk about 1,000 times in the past month of so.

the kk delivery van is seen out and about pretty often. it goes to grocery stores. they do have trucks as well (the ones you mentioned from the factory). then they have a bus. so they are loaded with lots of large vehicles no one is too surprised to see outside their stores.

i think sometimes murderers take their victims back to approximately where they were taken is to muddy the police investigation. the police don't know if that means it's someone who lives really close to that location or what (for sure).

here is a toy of an old kk delivery van from 1939.

 

[December]

You are a doing a more-than-fine job, December.

I'm a little unclear -- were you born already when Kathy died? Were you a very young child -- what?

I know I can't, though I try to, imagine the impact her murder would have had on your family and on you. I can see how it would be as you describe, having sort of a "compact version" of the event in your mind, then it enlarging and growing worse as you got older and learned more....

I bet it was hard on your dad, sharing this stuff with you. He probably wanted you to know "there is danger out there" -- yet he wanted to shield you, too. I am glad that he shared as much with you as he did. It makes the job you are trying to do now a LITTLE easier.

thank you.

thank you, btw, for the info on dog collars. it's so hard to search for that because everything routes to dogaramamart and i don't even have a dog, so i don't need to make a purchase.

i was too young to remember Kathy.. I don't remember how they told me.. or if they officially told me.. it just seems like i always knew. so i guess i overheard people talking.

i think, as he got older, my father would look back and remember and just need to talk about it. fighting in the war was against other men and they had weapons. Kathy was just a little girl.

i remember way later when i got invited to a skating party (it wasn't in Nashville), Daddy kind of didn't want me to go. but, he did give permission. turns out, i didn't like roller skating very much. i think he was relieved.

 

[December]

Daily Temperatures 11/27/1969 to 12/3/1969
11/27 was Thanksgiving
11/29 Kathy went missing
12/1 Kathy died
12/2 Kathy was found
12/3 Kathy is at Ellis Funeral Home

http://weathersource.com/account/of...-id=19899&latitude=36.0752&longitude=-86.7207

ETA

So, checking the highs.. it was warmer than I thought it was...

ETA2
temps (duh)
11/27/69..high temp 50 degrees, low temp 29 degrees, mean temp 39.5 degrees
11/28/69.. high temp 41 degrees, low temp 30 degrees, mean temp 35.5 degrees
11/29/69... high temp 47 degrees, low temp 19 degrees, mean temp 33 degrees
11/30/69... high temp 51 degrees, low temp 22 degrees, mean temp 36.5 degrees
12/1/69... high temp 53 degrees, low temp 34 degrees, mean temp 43.5 degrees
12/2/69... high temp 53 degrees, low temp 23 degrees, mean temp 38 degrees
12/3/69... high temp 54 degrees, low temp 32 degrees, mean temp 43 degrees

 

[December]

^^the above temperatures for 11/29/1969 are different than the ones I've been quoting. these are from 'weather source'.

 

[Arnie M]

bessie , December , Backwoods (and everybody) .... just a quick note for now

I am trying my best to eliminate Mike DeBardeleben .... mostly by trying to place him somewhere other than Tennessee in 1969 .... that way it will save me from going on a wild goose chase ...

It will probably take me a while to get through it all , I have listened to 8 of 10 Secret Service video tapes and some interesting things came up .... for example they interviewed his wife Linda whom he married in 1959 and she said he was always going on trips for long periods of time .... yet they were only married for about three weeks .... pretty much like what backwoods said .... some of the "professional" timelines (and names) dont add up.

During the interview with "Linda" she talked like she was the "Wanda" who was married to MD from 1964 to August 1969 because she said MD kidnapped a girl and brought her to their home

I listened carefully again to the SS tape and they called her Linda ... not Wanda .... and I think SS made a mistake and really meant Wanda .

Anyway , I am going to try to construct a timeline that sorts out the discrepancies , it will take some time for me to report back on it .... like I said I am trying my best to eliminate MD but some things keep trying to fit too perfect.

 

[Arnie M]

Anyone have a dad or grandpa who saved his old road maps ?? I see a 1969 Esso map of Nashville on ebay which would show the original streets before they were widened etc
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Humble-Oil-...ennessee-Street-Index-Hermitage-/221185559020

 

[December]

bessie , December , Backwoods (and everybody) .... just a quick note for now

I am trying my best to eliminate Mike DeBardeleben .... mostly by trying to place him somewhere other than Tennessee in 1969 .... that way it will save me from going on a wild goose chase ...

It will probably take me a while to get through it all , I have listened to 8 of 10 Secret Service video tapes and some interesting things came up .... for example they interviewed his wife Linda whom he married in 1959 and she said he was always going on trips for long periods of time .... yet they were only married for about three weeks .... pretty much like what backwoods said .... some of the "professional" timelines (and names) dont add up.

During the interview with "Linda" she talked like she was the "Wanda" who was married to MD from 1964 to August 1969 because she said MD kidnapped a girl and brought her to their home

I listened carefully again to the SS tape and they called her Linda ... not Wanda .... and I think SS made a mistake and really meant Wanda .

Anyway , I am going to try to construct a timeline that sorts out the discrepancies , it will take some time for me to report back on it .... like I said I am trying my best to eliminate MD but some things keep trying to fit too perfect.

thank you for going through those tapes. i appreciate it.

interesting that she told about him bringing a girl he kidnapped to his house! i think back then some criminals just kept an eye on the police.. if and when the police started sniffing around.. the criminals just picked up and moved to a different location.

who knows, this type of behavior may be more common than we think.. which is mind boggling.