TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, Nashville, 29 Nov 1969 #1

[bessie]

I wouldn't take 'all around the city' too literally unless they mean before 1963. That is when Metro was spawned and Nashville officially became all of Davidson County. But, if it was prior to that, they're talking about a specific part of Nashville, not all of Nashville. Probably, they mean a few neighborhoods that were close together and that's all. Unless it was possible to charter the bus to do a skating party as a one time thing.

Convoluted, I know... but, they probably just mean they could go and so could their friend who lived a mile away. These people aren't being very precise and getting kids from 'all around the city' would not be at all practical.

There was another subdivision not too far (by vehicle) and this is probably where they mean. The kids there probably were not allowed to go unless someone drove them because if they had walked then they would've crossed Nolensville Road. I don't know too many mothers who would be o.k. with that given people in Nashville like to drive fast.

I don't know. See what you think. The poster said the bus would go to East, North, South, and West Nashville.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2226556916/permalink/10152297941871917/

 

[bessie]

bbm: Arnie M, I also meant to say: I think one of the reasons things can get so confusing about Mike DeB.'s wives is that there were 5 of them, all told!

Also, I believe in the Michaud book aliases are used for the wives (understandably) to protect their privacy -- some of them were really traumatized by their experiences with him. Maybe they are using aliases in that way in the tapes, too, and maybe they don't always "match" the aliases used elsewhere, or even consistently in the tapes...?

DeBardeleben is discussed at length in this thread.

TX TX - Missing Fort Worth Three, 1974 - #2 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[Backwoods]

Thank you, Arnie. You can be our site expert on MD. I'm going to open a thread for him in the SK forum later. The information you guys are turning up could be useful in other cases.

bessie, I am glad you plan to open a thread for Debardeleben in the SK forum -- I really think we need one! It just seems that so much with him was "left hanging" -- I know he didn't commit ALL the unsolved crimes out there, but it is likely that some of them we see on WS he DID commit.

In the meantime, I found another YouTube video about Debardeleben -- for your thread, when you make it:


Inside the Mind of a Sadistic Serial Rapist and Criminal - YouTube

Not meaning to derail Kathy's thread, just wanting to share my find.

 

[bessie]

Here ya go, BW and Arnie.

TX TX - James Mitchell "Mike" DeBardeleben - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[December]

I don't know. See what you think. The poster said the bus would go to East, North, South, and West Nashville.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2226556916/permalink/10152297941871917/

There are some specific neighborhoods where, if you start from downtown, you could hit those neighborhoods. so, I guess I can see how that can be done. some people have an idea of what is 'Nashville' that is bigger than the original city, but not as big as the whole county. that's what they mean. which is more territory than I thought, but that person seemed to have a good clear memory.

this had to be organized somehow to prevent fruitlessly meandering. someone earlier, maybe you, theorized that maybe kids caught the bus at a community center or church... with a bigger territory than I imagined, maybe this is how they caught the bus.

so... now I wonder if Kathy was going to Coleman Park to meet the bus. After she got to RD (in theory) she could quickly cross Thompson Lane and be at Krispy Kreme.

 

[December]

I think something very similar... that when God sees a person will not survive an encounter and when He sees no earthly rescue will ever get there in time, He takes the person to Him. The victim's body suffers and dies, but the soul goes to heaven.

I just noticed I accidentally hit a smilie that is at the top of my reply. I didn't mean to do that, sorry. the touch screen on my phone gets me into trouble...

BUT, I wanted to add... there are some cases where people's free will (this could mean the victim's, the murderer's, a witness, a would be rescuerer) is at stake. then God may wait longer as He promised us not to interfere with free will. I think He takes those people to Him as quickly as possible. Thise might be right after they die, but as soon as possible they are in heaven and they are safe and loved.

In Kathy's case, it was perhaps before she died (jmo) because she really had no chance after the murderer took her. and the murderer had no glimmer of mercy for her. then he saw with his own eyes that he could not touch her soul because she was with God. i I guess that is why he hurt her so badly. God took Kathy and ruined his evil plans.

 

[December]

with the relevation that the rollerdrome bus went to several neighborhoods in different parts of Nashville, I have a new theory.

the woman who mentioned that the RD did that said this was a chance to meet kids from different places in Nashville which was nice (as opposed to just seeing the same kids at school).

going back to other comments in other places, we have learned a few things about Kathy's friends...

she had a best friend. the best friend did not go skating that night (she might not have even been in town, idk). the younger sister of the best friend also did not go skating.

a few or a couple of others have mentioned being close friends of Kathy's, but none of them say they were going to RD or KK that night. again, they might not have even been at home.

two sisters who were friendly with Kathy DID go skating. their father saw Kathy walking and offered to drive her as he'd just dropped off his daughters. she told him she wanted to walk. this means, ithink, that she did not normally hang around those girls (although she may have liked them and they may have likeI her.. i'm not implying anything) because she didn't really know their father or his car. i think if she had, she would have accepted the ride. (she may not have ever seen him without his daughters... I'm not saying she didn't know him at all.. she just did not know him very well or didn't recognize him). anyway, these girls did not mention seeing Kathy at the rink. but, they may have been too busy skating and just missed her. also, they didn't necessarily know she was going skating.

all of the above people lived in woodbine (Kathy's neighborhood).

what if the friends she was meeting were from a different neighborhood? this might be why no one really knows if she made it to RD or KK. Kathy might have told her mother about these girls, but maybe Nora just assumed they lived in Woodbine. on top of that, if the girls were from a different part of town then they might not chose to venture too far from the RD (and its bus) since they couldn't walk home from where they were.

so, being 12, Kathy doesn't realize this and just assumes she will see them at KK then RD like her other friends do. and the girls.. well, since most people in the neighborhood didn't know them and Kathy was 'shy and quiet'.. maybe no one really noticed them.

meanwhile, someone could have been grooming them all for a while. pretending to the woodbine girls that he's the cousin to the other girls or something like that. and vice versa.

so, Kathy goes in KK and her friends aren't there, but stalker creep is there... however, being 12, she believes him when he says he thinks of all of them as his little sisters or whatever. she sees him now and then at places and he seems nice enough. so maybe he tells her he'll walk across the street with her because he wants to go skating, too.

MOO and speculation

 

[December]

playing cards? I keep coming back to this. do people carry these? I know Kathy was only 12 and most 12 year olds love games.
i am just wondering... did anyone ever carry playing cards? iI never did and iI can't say I've ever known anyone to do it.

idk i just keep thinking the cards mean something.

 

[December]

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Attention Websleuthers! NBC's Dateline Is Looking For Leads!

this is a post from the dateline needs stories thread.

the poster is talking about a little boy aand two teen boys who were murdered in Henry County, Ohio. these unsolved murders occurred in the 70s.

the boys had their hands bound behind there backs and other similarities with Kathy (except different gender).

HOWEVER, the reason I linked this post is the second murder in 1977 occurred in a place called Flat Rock.The part of town Kathy lived in (Woodbine) was callled Flat RocK prior to being changed to Woodbine and the name Flat Rock is still used to this day.

 

[MrsTigglesworth]

Another thought occurred to me. Were the Hippodrome and the Rollerdrome skating rinks in Nashville owned by the same owners?

Did these roller skating rinks have their own bus or did they share the same bus?

Here is the man whom I think owned the roller drome, no connection to hippodrome:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=9525017

I had bookmarked his page as a possible source for old promo material for the place... That maybe he kept files that his family might still have. This would definitely be a job for LE, but if anyone kept old ads, flyers, BUS schedules, it might have been him!

 

[December]

Here is the man whom I think owned the roller drome, no connection to hippodrome:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=9525017

I had bookmarked his page as a possible source for old promo material for the place... That maybe he kept files that his family might still have. This would definitely be a job for LE, but if anyone kept old ads, flyers, BUS schedules, it might have been him!

The Hippodrome skating rink had been around longer than Rollerdrome (I think) and was in a nicer location. I think if he owned it or had anything to do with it, it'd be mentioned here. So, I believe Mr. Baker was not involved with the Hippodrome rink.

He had many other businesses and interests though so I'll bet he had someone specifically manage the RD for him. I have no idea how to figure out who that'd be.

But this is an excellent find! This also shows RD had some serious backing. I'm kind of surprised about that!

I wish there were photos inside of it, but all of the ones I can find are of Hippodrome and, from what people say, the floors were totally different. So...

 

[nola]

The Hippodrome closed in 1968, so the bus they would have used would have be defunct in 1969. There is always the possibility that Rollerdrome bus driver had worked for Hippodrome when they were open.
http://www.tennessean.com/article/20061108/COLUMNIST0102/611080404/

The 1964 Tennessean headline "Hippodrome Triangle Sold" announced the beginning of the end for that use on its part of the 4.5 acres between West End Avenue, Natchez Trace and 28th Avenue South.

The plan was for a 13-story hotel, built as the largest Holiday Inn of its time in the South. The Holiday Inn Select is in business there today at 2613 West End Ave.

Old-timers staged a "last lap" skating party March 26, 1968, before demolition began. A June 13 fire sparked by workers cutting its steel beams hastened the Hippodrome's demise.

 

[December]

The Hippodrome closed in 1968, so the bus they would have used would have be defunct in 1969. There is always the possibility that Rollerdrome bus driver had worked for Hippodrome when they were open.
http://www.tennessean.com/article/20061108/COLUMNIST0102/611080404/

The 1964 Tennessean headline "Hippodrome Triangle Sold" announced the beginning of the end for that use on its part of the 4.5 acres between West End Avenue, Natchez Trace and 28th Avenue South.

The plan was for a 13-story hotel, built as the largest Holiday Inn of its time in the South. The Holiday Inn Select is in business there today at 2613 West End Ave.

Old-timers staged a "last lap" skating party March 26, 1968, before demolition began. A June 13 fire sparked by workers cutting its steel beams hastened the Hippodrome's demise.

Thank you, Nola.

So, thatis an interesting thing.. the Hippodrome we've heard so many people thinking about was gone. But, from their descriptions of what they were wearing, I believe a lot of them were talking about the fifties.

So, this is making more sense about why the RD bus is out looking for customers. Too bad they didn't check out the driver a little better.

 

[Searchin']

I don't know. See what you think. The poster said the bus would go to East, North, South, and West Nashville.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2226556916/permalink/10152297941871917/

Bessie: When I read the FB page, I thought she was confusing the names of the rinks. Harding Road & West End are the same road which is where the Hippodrome was located. (JMO). It is frustrating that the Hippodrome seemed to get 99 3/4% media coverage and the poor RD got pretty much zilch!

 

[bessie]

Bessie: When I read the FB page, I thought she was confusing the names of the rinks. Harding Road & West End are the same road which is where the Hippodrome was located. (JMO). It is frustrating that the Hippodrome seemed to get 99 3/4% media coverage and the poor RD got pretty much zilch!

Thanks, Searchin'! And welcome to the board. Even though you've been with us awhile, I'm glad to see you posting.

It's good to have that cleared up because I admit, the street name had me confused. Makes sense now.

So back to the original question from earlier in the thread: Did the AWRD bus run at night? Various posts on the web talk about the AWRD bus picking up kids on Saturday mornings, but nothing about nighttime. If there was no bus running at night, then I wonder how Kathy was going to get home. And since the driver was the main suspect for a long time, well, it seems to link back to that darn bus.

 

[Searchin']

Thanks for the greetings Bessie.

After reading all the references to the Grandview Ave alley, I checked Google Maps and realized that it's currently still there! In fact, I believe all the alleys in that area are still being used. So....being the curious person I am, I drove down it. It discovered that it still runs the length from Thompson Lane to Newsome St (which is a block past Lutie). Depending on the time of day Kathy was walking, I wonder if she would have taken the alley to avoid the Nolensville Rd traffic? I doubt there was much happening through there on a Saturday. It would have taken her directly to KK.

While looking at the lot where we believe Kathy was found, I wonder if KK has more land in the back (for parking) than it did in ’69. Was the current parking area actually part of the lot? I doubt they had a drive-thru back then. Also doubt the original building was as large. Just something else to ask LE.

http://goo.gl/maps/oTZ2F [I haven't figured out how to post photos of the maps]

I wonder which side of the lot Kathy’s body was found: street side or alley side?

One last thing….Arnie, thank you for the map locations. I just wanted to mention for folks who haven’t been with us since the beginning: The RD was located at 523 Thompson Lane across the street and down a few buildings from KK. I know, December, that you posted a photo of the building that is currently in that location.

OK...one more last thing. December, you were asking the size of Coleman Park. Even thought some of the photos make it look like a couple of football fields, you can stand at the intersection and see the complete layout. So it really isn't that large.

 

[nerosleuth]

the poster is talking about a little boy and two teen boys who were murdered in Henry County, Ohio. these unsolved murders occurred in the 70s.

the boys had their hands bound behind there backs and other similarities with Kathy (except different gender).

HOWEVER, the reason I linked this post is the second murder in 1977 occurred in a place called Flat Rock.The part of town Kathy lived in (Woodbine) was callled Flat RocK prior to being changed to Woodbine and the name Flat Rock is still used to this day.

The murders did not occur in Henry County, Ohio in the 70's.

It occurred in Henryville, Indiana in the 70's.

Henryville, Indiana is in Clark County, Indiana and 20 miles North of Louisville, Kentucky. Henryville is right off of Interstate 65.

Here is a Websleuths thread about the Henryville Unsolved Murders:


IN IN - - Unsolved murders in Henryville, 1970s - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


I see that the last page of the current Henryville Unsolved Murders thread has local info and speculation about that crime.

 

[nerosleuth]

someone earlier, maybe you, theorized that maybe kids caught the bus at a community center or church... with a bigger territory than I imagined, maybe this is how they caught the bus.

so... now I wonder if Kathy was going to Coleman Park to meet the bus. After she got to RD (in theory) she could quickly cross Thompson Lane and be at Krispy Kreme.

two sisters who were friendly with Kathy DID go skating. their father saw Kathy walking and offered to drive her as he'd just dropped off his daughters. she told him she wanted to walk.

what if the friends she was meeting were from a different neighborhood? this might be why no one really knows if she made it to RD or KK.

You could ask the police what was the exact time and location that Kathy was offered a car ride by the girls father. That would give you an idea about Kathy's whereabouts after she left home.

If Kathy was meeting friends from different neighborhoods, she probably was going to meet them either at the roller skating rink, the donut store, or maybe at Coleman Park.

The question here is whether or not the friends from different neighborhoods were Kathy's age or if they were older than her.

If they were older, I'm thinking of older teens in junior high school, from the 7th to the 9th grades. It's also possible that her junior high friends could also have an older sibling that's still in high school.

 

[bessie]

Thanks for the greetings Bessie.

After reading all the references to the Grandview Ave alley, I checked Google Maps and realized that it's currently still there! In fact, I believe all the alleys in that area are still being used. So....being the curious person I am, I drove down it. It discovered that it still runs the length from Thompson Lane to Newsome St (which is a block past Lutie). Depending on the time of day Kathy was walking, I wonder if she would have taken the alley to avoid the Nolensville Rd traffic? I doubt there was much happening through there on a Saturday. It would have taken her directly to KK.

While looking at the lot where we believe Kathy was found, I wonder if KK has more land in the back (for parking) than it did in ’69. Was the current parking area actually part of the lot? I doubt they had a drive-thru back then. Also doubt the original building was as large. Just something else to ask LE.

That's one of my big questions, so I've searched all over for an old photo, but to no avail. I did find one photo which showed the KK much closer to the street than it is now. And Thompson was widened in 1980's, I believe. So knowing those two pieces of information, and the fact that businesses built in the 1950's-60's didn't have large parking lots and drive through lanes that we see today, I'd wager that lot was a good deal larger back then. JMO

http://goo.gl/maps/oTZ2F [I haven't figured out how to post photos of the maps]

To upload photos directly from your computer, click the paper clip icon in the post editor. A separate little window will open. Browse to the image file on your computer, then upload. Type the rest of your post, and "submit reply". The image will appear as a thumbnail attached to your post. When clicked, it will open to full size. If you mean posting a live image of a map, I don't believe it's possible to do that now. We could at one time, but no longer.

I wonder which side of the lot Kathy’s body was found: street side or alley side?

One last thing….Arnie, thank you for the map locations. I just wanted to mention for folks who haven’t been with us since the beginning: The RD was located at 523 Thompson Lane across the street and down a few buildings from KK. I know, December, that you posted a photo of the building that is currently in that location.

OK...one more last thing. December, you were asking the size of Coleman Park. Even thought some of the photos make it look like a couple of football fields, you can stand at the intersection and see the complete layout. So it really isn't that large.

"She was found in the alley on Grandview Avenue in a vacant lot with her roller skates still with her," Postiglione said.

http://www.wsmv.com/story/19024068/cold-case-detectives-seek-publics-help-in-grisly-killings

 

[:+:MrTT:+:]

Thanks for the greetings Bessie.

After reading all the references to the Grandview Ave alley, I checked Google Maps and realized that it's currently still there! In fact, I believe all the alleys in that area are still being used. So....being the curious person I am, I drove down it. It discovered that it still runs the length from Thompson Lane to Newsome St (which is a block past Lutie). Depending on the time of day Kathy was walking, I wonder if she would have taken the alley to avoid the Nolensville Rd traffic? I doubt there was much happening through there on a Saturday. It would have taken her directly to KK.

While looking at the lot where we believe Kathy was found, I wonder if KK has more land in the back (for parking) than it did in ’69. Was the current parking area actually part of the lot? I doubt they had a drive-thru back then. Also doubt the original building was as large. Just something else to ask LE.

http://goo.gl/maps/oTZ2F [I haven't figured out how to post photos of the maps]

I wonder which side of the lot Kathy’s body was found: street side or alley side?

One last thing….Arnie, thank you for the map locations. I just wanted to mention for folks who haven’t been with us since the beginning: The RD was located at 523 Thompson Lane across the street and down a few buildings from KK. I know, December, that you posted a photo of the building that is currently in that location.

OK...one more last thing. December, you were asking the size of Coleman Park. Even thought some of the photos make it look like a couple of football fields, you can stand at the intersection and see the complete layout. So it really isn't that large.

Thank you for the link to the map.

Using street view as her eyes and coming from her street she made a left than a quick right on woodbine st to grand-view dr av with intention of heading down towards the kk and the ring. She may have been planning on stopping at the kk first for a doughnut not sure, before heading to the ring area. Since it was couple of days after thanks giving traffic was a little heavy on the main street there with people returning home leaving town etc. So to avoid that she took the shortcut to grand-view with intention on buying a doughnut at the kk. She didn't mind walking by her self after dark, but she didn't like to have cars coming behind her or in front of her not knowing whom was driving or if something may happen, so she avoided it when she was able. I believe she had a token or something to get inside the ring not sure where i read that. She ran into someone right there in that area, around grand-view and the kk. Someone on foot i still believe for now.