TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, Nashville, 29 Nov 1969 #1

[:+:MrTT:+:]

Ill check back every so often between sleeping, so I will stay signed on.
An important question for you concerning the playing cards.

Was she known to play cards?
Would it had been nothing unusual about her carrying cards?
Is it known as fact those were her cards?

Ill wait for your answer before posting what I am wondering
Thank you.

 

[nola]

Searchin', thank you for posting the map and drawing attention to the alley and the fact that it runs all the way beyond Lutie. I could see that a child would rather walk down an alley than along a busy street with traffic; especially a shy girl would have felt safer to walk alone. This killer could have approached Kathy anywhere along her path on foot or in a vehicle. I keep thinking that he had to be familiar with the area to know about the lot and alley. If he was in a delivery van - his presence in the alley would not have drawn any attention. He could have committed the crime in the truck/van while parked in the alley behind a closed for the holiday business. Makes me want to know more about businesses and their delivery vendors who would have made use of this alley on a routine basis.

I keep thinking that this is all taking place on the Saturday after Thanksgiving -- a BIG Christmas shopping day. The new mall would have been a magnet for shoppers some may have traveled from surrounding areas and maybe even stopped at the end of their day for a KK donut never realizing the horror that is happening just behind the building.


I came across this old photo of Nolensville Road at Thompson Lane from the early 1960s:

 

[KariKae]

Daily Temperatures 11/27/1969 to 12/3/1969
11/27 was Thanksgiving
11/29 Kathy went missing
12/1 Kathy died
12/2 Kathy was found
12/3 Kathy is at Ellis Funeral Home

http://weathersource.com/account/of...-id=19899&latitude=36.0752&longitude=-86.7207

ETA

So, checking the highs.. it was warmer than I thought it was...

ETA2
temps (duh)
11/27/69..high temp 50 degrees, low temp 29 degrees, mean temp 39.5 degrees
11/28/69.. high temp 41 degrees, low temp 30 degrees, mean temp 35.5 degrees
11/29/69... high temp 47 degrees, low temp 19 degrees, mean temp 33 degrees
11/30/69... high temp 51 degrees, low temp 22 degrees, mean temp 36.5 degrees
12/1/69... high temp 53 degrees, low temp 34 degrees, mean temp 43.5 degrees
12/2/69... high temp 53 degrees, low temp 23 degrees, mean temp 38 degrees
12/3/69... high temp 54 degrees, low temp 32 degrees, mean temp 43 degrees

When looking at these temps, remember the low temp usually occurs just before sunrise. So, on Nov 28, it would have been 30 degrees just before sunrise, 41 in the "heat of the day". After the sun set, the temp would drop to 19 degrees over night.

 

[December]

The murders did not occur in Henry County, Ohio in the 70's.

It occurred in Henryville, Indiana in the 70's.

Henryville, Indiana is in Clark County, Indiana and 20 miles North of Louisville, Kentucky. Henryville is right off of Interstate 65.

Here is a Websleuths thread about the Henryville Unsolved Murders:


IN IN - - Unsolved murders in Henryville, 1970s - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


I see that the last page of the current Henryville Unsolved Murders thread has local info and speculation about that crime.

Nerosleuth, thank you for the correction.

Interesting it is near I-65 which runs through Nashville as well.

I do not know if it is the same murderer. I guess there is no reason to think so. but, the way the boys were treated as well as the name Flat Rock jumped out at me.

 

[December]

When looking at these temps, remember the low temp usually occurs just before sunrise. So, on Nov 28, it would have been 30 degrees just before sunrise, 41 in the "heat of the day". After the sun set, the temp would drop to 19 degrees over night.

She went missing on Nov. 29.

I included some extra days just to show a pattern of weather. It looks like the temperatures were pretty consistent. Mild days and cold nights... in some cases, very cold.

 

[December]

Searchin', thank you for posting the map and drawing attention to the alley and the fact that it runs all the way beyond Lutie. I could see that a child would rather walk down an alley than along a busy street with traffic; especially a shy girl would have felt safer to walk alone. This killer could have approached Kathy anywhere along her path on foot or in a vehicle. I keep thinking that he had to be familiar with the area to know about the lot and alley. If he was in a delivery van - his presence in the alley would not have drawn any attention. He could have committed the crime in the truck/van while parked in the alley behind a closed for the holiday business. Makes me want to know more about businesses and their delivery vendors who would have made use of this alley on a routine basis.

I keep thinking that this is all taking place on the Saturday after Thanksgiving -- a BIG Christmas shopping day. The new mall would have been a magnet for shoppers some may have traveled from surrounding areas and maybe even stopped at the end of their day for a KK donut never realizing the horror that is happening just behind the building.


I came across this old photo of Nolensville Road at Thompson Lane from the early 1960s:

I don't see a photo?

This alley, if I'm remembering right, looks like a small road. Most people wouldn't need to drive on it, but I don't think a car being on it would attract attention. This being said, it was more than likely a bigger vehicle than a car.

KK had delivery vans. But, I do not know when they operated exactly. They took doughnuts to various stores (not KK stores, grocery stores). I never thought about where they went after deliveries, but parked behind the store seems as good a place to be as any.

The KK vans where mostly white. They had green trim. If someone had a mostly white delivery van, maybe it wouldn't even be noticed among the KK vans.

 

[December]

Ill check back every so often between sleeping, so I will stay signed on.
An important question for you concerning the playing cards.

Was she known to play cards?
Would it had been nothing unusual about her carrying cards?
Is it known as fact those were her cards?

Ill wait for your answer before posting what I am wondering
Thank you.

I do not know if she played cards or not.

I am just trying to think of ever seeing someone pull a deck of cards out of their purse... I just don't think people usually carry playing cards. This is why I've wondered if she was carrying them for a reason (planning a game).

I am going to ask the police if those were for certain Kathy's cards.

 

[December]

Thank you for the link to the map.

Using street view as her eyes and coming from her street she made a left than a quick right on woodbine st to grand-view dr av with intention of heading down towards the kk and the ring. She may have been planning on stopping at the kk first for a doughnut not sure, before heading to the ring area. Since it was couple of days after thanks giving traffic was a little heavy on the main street there with people returning home leaving town etc. So to avoid that she took the shortcut to grand-view with intention on buying a doughnut at the kk. She didn't mind walking by her self after dark, but she didn't like to have cars coming behind her or in front of her not knowing whom was driving or if something may happen, so she avoided it when she was able. I believe she had a token or something to get inside the ring not sure where i read that. She ran into someone right there in that area, around grand-view and the kk. Someone on foot i still believe for now.

RD did have tokens that could be used. I don't know for certain if she had one, but I think she must have.

I have always gotten the impression that the $1 was to get a treat at KK. One thing they have she might have enjoyed very much on a cold winter's night... hot chocolate. It was good hot chocolate, too. It was delicious with a doughnut. I think this is where she was going.

I need to find out from police if the lot was fenced in 1969. But, even if it was, she could have walked beside it.

 

[December]

That's one of my big questions, so I've searched all over for an old photo, but to no avail. I did find one photo which showed the KK much closer to the street than it is now. And Thompson was widened in 1980's, I believe. So knowing those two pieces of information, and the fact that businesses built in the 1950's-60's didn't have large parking lots and drive through lanes that we see today, I'd wager that lot was a good deal larger back then. JMO
To upload photos directly from your computer, click the paper clip icon in the post editor. A separate little window will open. Browse to the image file on your computer, then upload. Type the rest of your post, and "submit reply". The image will appear as a thumbnail attached to your post. When clicked, it will open to full size. If you mean posting a live image of a map, I don't believe it's possible to do that now. We could at one time, but no longer.


http://www.wsmv.com/story/19024068/cold-case-detectives-seek-publics-help-in-grisly-killings

Bessie, I have looked high and low for a photo of that old KK building. Where did you find it?

It wasn't a small building, you're right about that.

It would cool. You could stand and watch the doughnuts being glazed. there was a huge, gleaming counter. and there were booths and tables.

 

[December]

You could ask the police what was the exact time and location that Kathy was offered a car ride by the girls father. That would give you an idea about Kathy's whereabouts after she left home.

If Kathy was meeting friends from different neighborhoods, she probably was going to meet them either at the roller skating rink, the donut store, or maybe at Coleman Park.

The question here is whether or not the friends from different neighborhoods were Kathy's age or if they were older than her.

If they were older, I'm thinking of older teens in junior high school, from the 7th to the 9th grades. It's also possible that her junior high friends could also have an older sibling that's still in high school.

I will ask them.

I wonder if the police talked to him... but surely they did if he lived in the same neighborhood and had taken his own daughters to RD.

I don't know if she did have friends from different neighborhoods.. but, going through various people, it seems all of the friends from her own neighborhood (except the two girls just mentioned) weren't skating. i just speculated maybe they were from someplace else to account for why the police never seem to have found them to find out whether or not they saw Kathy.

since Kathy was shy... I wonder if it was more her group of friends made friends with another group of girls. thus, her plans may have been kind of shaky (whether she realized it or not). maybe the other girls just weren't at the place she went to meet them?

they could've been older, easily.

uh oh... what if someone just assumed she was older based on her friends more than her appearance?

 

[December]

Thanks for the greetings Bessie.

After reading all the references to the Grandview Ave alley, I checked Google Maps and realized that it's currently still there! In fact, I believe all the alleys in that area are still being used. So....being the curious person I am, I drove down it. It discovered that it still runs the length from Thompson Lane to Newsome St (which is a block past Lutie). Depending on the time of day Kathy was walking, I wonder if she would have taken the alley to avoid the Nolensville Rd traffic? I doubt there was much happening through there on a Saturday. It would have taken her directly to KK.

While looking at the lot where we believe Kathy was found, I wonder if KK has more land in the back (for parking) than it did in ’69. Was the current parking area actually part of the lot? I doubt they had a drive-thru back then. Also doubt the original building was as large. Just something else to ask LE.

http://goo.gl/maps/oTZ2F [I haven't figured out how to post photos of the maps]

I wonder which side of the lot Kathy’s body was found: street side or alley side?

One last thing….Arnie, thank you for the map locations. I just wanted to mention for folks who haven’t been with us since the beginning: The RD was located at 523 Thompson Lane across the street and down a few buildings from KK. I know, December, that you posted a photo of the building that is currently in that location.

OK...one more last thing. December, you were asking the size of Coleman Park. Even thought some of the photos make it look like a couple of football fields, you can stand at the intersection and see the complete layout. So it really isn't that large.

Thank you for the info about the park.

and thank you for driving down the alley. this is very helpful.

as far as the old kk building, there was no drive through. parking... there wasn't a ton of parking, but most people didn't stay long.

size wise, i haven't seen the new building, but the old building was good sized. they made a lot of doughnuts there. and had big counters and places to sit. it was nice.

i never was unable to find a place to park right in front, but the lot always had some cars.

i never went around back.

i didn't know it was the same kk....

i thought the rink was across the street (thompson lane) from kk?

i do think she was probably going the backway, like you said. nolensville road would've been a mess with the holiday traffic.

 

[December]

Thanks, Searchin'! And welcome to the board. Even though you've been with us awhile, I'm glad to see you posting.

It's good to have that cleared up because I admit, the street name had me confused. Makes sense now.

So back to the original question from earlier in the thread: Did the AWRD bus run at night? Various posts on the web talk about the AWRD bus picking up kids on Saturday mornings, but nothing about nighttime. If there was no bus running at night, then I wonder how Kathy was going to get home. And since the driver was the main suspect for a long time, well, it seems to link back to that darn bus.

some people reliving fond memories on these old time Nashville pages have said the bus took them home 'at night'.for what it's worth.

and yes, it always ccomes back to adcox. he is involved somehow.

 

[bessie]

Bessie, I have looked high and low for a photo of that old KK building. Where did you find it?

It wasn't a small building, you're right about that.

It would cool. You could stand and watch the doughnuts being glazed. there was a huge, gleaming counter. and there were booths and tables.

I haven't been able to find it again, but I continue to search. When I came across it, I had 30-40 tabs open, and I closed some before I had bookmarked what I wanted to keep. I t was a small photo of the facade and just enough sidewalk to show the building was close to the street.

some people reliving fond memories on these old time Nashville pages have said the bus took them home 'at night'.for what it's worth.

and yes, it always ccomes back to adcox. he is involved somehow.

Yes, I know, but only in reference to the Hd bus. There's no reference to the AWRD bus riding at nighttime.

ETA: December, regarding the man who allegedly offered K a ride, are you saying he had already dropped off his daughters and was alone when he talked to K? I thought the daughters were with him.

Also wanted to add my two cents on another question. As adolescents in the late 60's, among my sister and my friends, someone always had a deck of cards. If the cards were K's, I don't find it odd at all.

 

[:+:MrTT:+:]

I do not know if she played cards or not.

I am just trying to think of ever seeing someone pull a deck of cards out of their purse... I just don't think people usually carry playing cards. This is why I've wondered if she was carrying them for a reason (planning a game).

I am going to ask the police if those were for certain Kathy's cards.

Thank you for the response to my question. Either the cards were already there, discarded by someone else, or they were hers, or they were left by the killer. I am just assuming the cards were in a card box, and I assume we are talking about a whole deck of cards and not just a few.

Until you find out more about whom they belong to ask if it was a box of cards and the box was found also.

If they still have them, and a box maybe they could dust for prints once again. If they ever dusted any of the cards found from the scene.

But something is telling me that the killer kept a card from the stack. I believe it was a whole set. 52 i assume was written on the box. He kept a card so if ever he decided to taunt the police and for whatever reason call them with information he could mention that card and the LEOS would know this person knows something.

Have them see if a hi value card is missing. Ace through 10. But especially look and see if the A of hearts or King of diamonds are missing. It could be any really, the joker, Ace of spades etc.

I just have a hunch if those cards are related to the crime scene, They belonged to the killer and not Kathy. But just guessing. But it doesn't change my suspicion that the killer kept a card from the deck.

 

[bessie]

I don't see a photo?

I *think* nola's photo is the one at this link, a Gulf station where White Castle is presently located. I saw it awhile back while searching the site. It's on the opposite side of Thompson from the KK. The picture shows how the buildings were clustered close to each other, and close to the street. Typical for the era.

http://www.southnashvillelife.com/2011/08/vintage-south-nashville-just-right-in.html

 

[bessie]

I have a copy of the November 2009 Nashville Retrospect with the reprint of the Nashville Banner article by Larry Brinton dated December 2, 1969.

Here are the facts from the portion not visible in the ad posted here Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, murdered while walking to Nashville skating rink, November 1969.

Some facts are new, some we already know, and some vary from other reports. I'm including all of them, paragraph by paragraph.

• The Civil Defense team started searching Sunday night
• Kathy left home headed to the skating rink at 7:45 P.M. on Saturday evening
• "...an investigation disclosed" that she didn't make it to the rink.
• A Metro policeman at the scene declared, "There had to be at least three persons involved in this." (Keep in mind, this is not an official statement. The officer didn't want to be identified, and it reads like an initial gut reaction. He goes on to say he would "probably want to kill" the persons responsible if he could catch them.)
• K's nude body was lying 20' from the alley.
• It couldn't be seen by searchers walking down the alley or the street.
• Her skates and clothing were lying at her feet. (This description differs somewhat from the one reported by the Scene.)
• K's blouse was used as a gag.
• Two strips of cloth torn from the lining of her jacket were used to tie her wrists. (Answers the question about the plaid cloth some speculated might belong to the killer.)
• Spectators were kept away from the scene while LE searched for clues.
• According to an investigator, it "appeared" the sexual attack had taken place at the scene where K's body was found
• Kathy left home by herself intending to walk to the skating rink.
• She had not been there for "some time" because "she didn't want her two little brothers following her."
• K's mom told the Banner that K earned $1.00 by helping her with housework on Saturday.
• LE didn't say if the money was found at the scene.
• After being taken to the funeral home, Metro M.E., Dr. T. E. Simpkins, was expected to perform "a detailed examination and possible autopsy". (This is not the same doctor we talked about earlier who was named in this article, http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=yHkcAAAAIBAJ&sjid=fFEEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6723,2584619)
• LE at the scene said it was obvious K had been "criminally assaulted, probably before she was slain".
• Parents were separated; father lived in Clarksville.
• The plan was for K to call her mom when she finished skating, and her mom would pick her up.
• When K didn't call, her mom went to the rink, but it was closed.
• After hearing from Mrs. Jones that K had never run away, had no problems at home, and had told her mom she'd call when she was finished skating, the CD director ordered the unit to search.

 

[Backwoods]

Wow, bessie, some of this sounds a good bit different from what we've had thus far, doesn't it?

I'm anxious to hear what December has to say about the differences. I do remember December has said, more or less, that sometimes the Banner got things wrong ...

 

[bessie]

A dark b&w photo accompanies the article. I'll try to scan it later, but it's so dark, I don't think scanning will work well. General description:

The photo is taken from a viewpoint about 6 feet from K's body. Between the photographer and the body is a narrow path of pressed down weeds and grass. At the end of the pathway is K's body lying horizontally, and covered by what appears to be a white sheet. On either side of the pathway and behind K are tall weeds, at least three feet high. Strewn about in front of the sheet are light colored objects that look like pieces of paper, perhaps something used by the investigators. It's very hard to distinguish.

 

[Backwoods]

playing cards? I keep coming back to this. do people carry these? I know Kathy was only 12 and most 12 year olds love games.
i am just wondering... did anyone ever carry playing cards? iI never did and iI can't say I've ever known anyone to do it.

idk i just keep thinking the cards mean something.

I almost have to think that LE would have checked with Kathy's mom to verify the cards were (or were not) hers -- I sure hope so!

I agree with bessie, though, that it doesn't seem unusual for a girl Kathy's age to have a deck of cards in her purse. I can remember playing various card games with friends at about that age.

Maybe there were times during skating outings where kids took a break and playing cards was something they did at those times...? Then, for sure, Kathy might have taken some. Also, at that age, sometimes girls just like to have something to carry in their purses -- any little thing of interest, etc.

This has reminded me of a memory of my own. Around the same time (1969 or so, I mean) I remember buying a little "mini" deck of cards, at Woolworth's in Macon I think -- they had a design on the back of a teddy bear dressed as a fireman, and I just thought they were so cute. I probably toted them around for awhile, kind of a "treasure". (Kathy was born a couple of years before me, so maybe I was a little younger -- maybe 10 instead of 12, etc.) It'd be interesting to know if the backs of the cards Kathy had were novel in some way -- pretty flowers, cute animals, etc. -- and whether they were full-size or maybe a mini deck like I had.

 

[December]

I haven't been able to find it again, but I continue to search. When I came across it, I had 30-40 tabs open, and I closed some before I had bookmarked what I wanted to keep. I t was a small photo of the facade and just enough sidewalk to show the building was close to the street.


Yes, I know, but only in reference to the Hd bus. There's no reference to the AWRD bus riding at nighttime.

ETA: December, regarding the man who allegedly offered K a ride, are you saying he had already dropped off his daughters and was alone when he talked to K? I thought the daughters were with him.

Also wanted to add my two cents on another question. As adolescents in the late 60's, among my sister and my friends, someone always had a deck of cards. If the cards were K's, I don't find it odd at all.

The daughters were not with him. He had dropped them off and was on his way home when he saw Kathy walking. this is why she didn't accept the ride, she didn't recognize him without his daughters.

i thought we weren't even sure hd had a bus? but, i have seen a reference where they specifically did say the rd bus picked them up and dropped them off. but, i can't link it up since there are a bunch of people's personal emails etc all over it. however, it is still one person's memory. i did quote it earlier in the thread somewhere... i think. but, this is where i read it.

you carried these cards in your purse? this is what i am wondering about. not just owning cards, but having them inside a purse and carrying them around. i mean, i guess she probably did. but, i didn't know would this be a thing to carry always or a thing to carry only ifyou had plans to use them.