Why did Madeleine 'go missing'?

[liz b.]

The upstairs neighbor said that she heard MM crying the night before,She also said that she heard crying on the night that MM went missing.

1. When did she hear the crying on the night of MM's disappearance ? If it was after 8:30pm, it would mean that MM was taken out of the apartment. moo jmo

2. Before 8 :30pm, it might mean something very different.

3. How did the crying stop on the second night ? Was it sudden, or did it taper off,and finally stop ? The latter could mean that the kids finally fell asleep. moo imo The former might mean something abruptly stopped it.

4. The elephant in the room question is : what else did she hear that night ?

jmo moo

 

[Dushi]

That time should typically have been filled with getting the children back from child care, settling them down, feeding and then bathing them-then I presume the parents took turns taking showers and getting the children to sleep, as it's been said that they were asleep while the parents were out. This is what my 5-8:30 timeline would have looked like, anyway. I haven't seen the actual timeline, if there is one for this 3 1/2 hour stretch.

There is a timeline above
I have no idea of the accuracy, but its there

 

[Fefster]

I think it's possible that something happened before 8.30pm and the McCanns were hoping that one of the other parents would make the discovery.
As the night wore on, they could have become desperate to have the discovery made. Perhaps they even discussed if the discovery had not been made by 10pm, then they would reveal the 'abduction' themselves.
Best case for a guilty person would be to be sitting at the tapas restaurant and one of the other tapas 9 to have found the empty bed, but they weren't checking closely enough and Kate perhaps had to do it.
All that pent up emotion of hiding a terrible secret came out in a rush of hysteria and confused comments 'they've taken her' (is that what I was supposed to say, I can almost hear her think).
All IMO and nothing stated as fact, just supposition

 

[Jmoose]

People in here base their facts on newspaper articles which are often misleading, due to the journalists not knowing enough about the case and their editors not paying attention to this.
Back in 2007 journalists were sitting in a cafe in PDL and listening to 'hear says', basing their articles on this because there were no facts coming from the case investigators.

Very often cash strapped police and GNR would tell lies for couple of bucks..

And don't forget-the police do not keep the press in the loop!

 

[SapphireSteel]

One observation I have made in the last couple of days from watching many clips of the McCann's on youtube, is that in answers to questions concerning what did Madeleine do that day, what is your last memory of her, etc....she is consistent that IIRC she came back from a run and picked up the kids, they were all tired and she noticed Madeleine was very tired and had little color in her face from being so tired, then she took them to the room to do their bedtime routine, Gerry went to play tennis. They took bath, read 2 books, and then they went to sleep.

Sometimes I find it strange why she mentions every time that Madeleine was extremely tired and worn out and had a pale color on her face....just so tired. Seems to me that has nothing to do with being abducted. She adds those details, but doesn't add details you would think would be more relevant to her, like what was the last thing Madeleine said to her? What cute things was she saying during her bath and during reading of the book? Did she give her a hug before she went to sleep, what was the last thing she said to her before going to sleep? In one interview she named the 2 books they read, but didn't go into any detail about Madeleine herself after they got back to the room. To be fair, she doesn't talk about the twins, either, but the relevance being that those were the very last memories she has of Madeleine!

It's just very strange and you would think as a mom that she would hold on to and treasure those last memories of her daughter.

One reason she doesn't give details about the twins either COULD BE....something happened after they got to the room, she was so distracted with what happened to Madeleine that they didn't actually do the things that she said they did....bath, reading of books peacefully, etc.. Basically a chaos ensued. That would be explanation for no details regarding twins or Madeleine, she cannot talk about any details b/c no such details exist.

I'm a mum, and if my little one was looking pale, particularly when in a foreign country, I would probably be just a touch concerned.

Concerned enough to consider making my night out one hour long instead of five or six.

:dunno:

I noticed some extremely strange speech in the Crimewatch interview.

Not once did they speak of getting Madeleine back.

They spoke of "answers" and "resolutions" but never once of finding Madeleine.

One would think they would take this opportunity to speak directly to the abducted Madeleine who is now 12 and apparently wandering around Mexico this week, but they didn't.

:sick:

Another thing I noticed was Gerry saying Madeleine was born "nearly perfect". Nearly??????

Did Madeleine have some imperfection to Gerry that has never been spoken of before?

It seems so.

:stormingmad:

 

[Fefster]

I'm a mum, and if my little one was looking pale, particularly when in a foreign country, I would probably be just a touch concerned.

Concerned enough to consider making my night out one hour long instead of five or six.

:dunno:

I noticed some extremely strange speech in the Crimewatch interview.

Not once did they speak of getting Madeleine back.

They spoke of "answers" and "resolutions" but never once of finding Madeleine.

One would think they would take this opportunity to speak directly to the abducted Madeleine who is now 12 and apparently wandering around Mexico this week, but they didn't.

:sick:

Another thing I noticed was Gerry saying Madeleine was born "nearly perfect". Nearly??????

Did Madeleine have some imperfection to Gerry that has never been spoken of before?

It seems so.

:stormingmad:

I just think they were extremely guarded and all their words were very carefully chosen. It was very rehearsed and so it felt cold and emotionless. They are hard to believe indeed.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I disagree, they wanted plenty of time to make sure the drugs took effect. Even when I have a migraine, I know that Excedrin and Advil both take 20 min. to kick in, so I have to go through at least 20 min. of pain, sometimes longer...

I agree.

I find it extremely odd when people go on a holiday with their children, then ditch em at every available opportunity.

Odd they were so determined to leave them alone, even after Madeleine was crying for over an hour the night before...seems to me... They were determined to ditch those children, not have child care and do whatever necessary to ensure there would be no crying that night.

I find it strange that Gerry sent his friend to check on Kate to "see if she needed any help" getting the kids ready to bring to the playground. They met their friends & their children there every night before putting them to bed, but the night of the 3rd. Odd.







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[aa9511]

I also found this interesting:

The situation that concerns the window of the bedroom whereMADELEINEslept, together with the twins, which was open,according toKATE. It would be necessary to clarify whether there was a draft, due to the fact that movement of the curtains and pressure under the bedroom door are mentioned, which would eventually be clarified through the reconstitution.

from the PJ report: http://www.scribd.com/doc/29658537/PJ-Report-English-Translation

This is listed under the section regarding reconstitution and how they have important questions which could be answered by the reconstitution which the Tapas group refused to do.

And interesting to note that Kate McCann makes sure to mention in many interviews (explaining how she came to know that Madeleine was missing) that she went into the room and saw nothing unusual (other than the door was opened wider than usual), but as she was closing the door, the door was pulled shut because of something like a draft. hmmmm......

Then she goes on to say that this is what alerts her to something unusual, she opens the door and sees that the window and shutters are open, the curtains do a whoosh sound, she goes to check if Madeleine is in her bdrm, she's not and so she knows she's been "taken."

So is she saying that when she first walked into the room, she did not notice something as obvious and a window open?? Especially when there was apparently a breeze coming in from that window!! NOT BELIEVABLE. How could you walk into a room and not notice right away an open window, a window which was supposed to be closed? There would also be immediately more light into the room coming from the open window and shutter! And the window was in such a place where it would be very noticeable as soon as someone opened the door. The room was also small, not like it was a huge room with the window way on the other side far away.

She conveniently puts the "draft" information in her interviews, probably after she read the police report which stated that is an important issue/question.

Also from the report, the cadaver dog information is very important, IMO. They sniffed exactly where Madeleine's dead body was. How come they did not alert to ANYWHERE ELSE besides the places where Madeleine was or could have been? I believe that they detected exactly what and where they alerted to.

I believe something happened before they left to go to dinner at Tapas.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I think perhaps the Tapas group believed in them, in the beginning. I think it's possible they all routinely drugged their kids... Perhaps that shared knowledge among them...Would ensure everyone's silence.

I'd love to know what the relationship with these folks is now?

This case reminds me so much of the Ramsey's...and how in retrospect The Whites come to be highly suspect of Ramsey's story and the investigation.




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[aa9511]

How do they just get to explain away the cadaver dogs? Oh wait....right, because they don't have to even talk to the investigators. I wish Juan could rip into these two, under direct questioning they will not be able to hold up their flimsy story.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I think perhaps the Tapas group believed in them, in the beginning. I think it's possible they all routinely drugged their kids... Perhaps that shared knowledge among them...Would ensure everyone's silence.

I'd love to know what the relationship with these folks is now?

This case reminds me so much of the Ramsey's...and how in retrospect The Whites come to be highly suspect of Ramsey's story and the investigation.




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The only difference being, the Whites weren't part of the action...more like victims themselves.

The Tapas crew have spoken of a "pact".

:sick:

Then, there's the hint of pedophilia which has never been explained, the testimony of the Gaspars and of the social worker at the scene at PDL.

 

[Linda7NJ]

The only difference being, the Whites weren't part of the action...more like victims themselves.

The Tapas crew have spoken of a "pact".

:sick:

Then, there's the hint of pedophilia which has never been explained, the testimony of the Gaspars and of the social worker at the scene at PDL.

The Whites were used and promptly tossed under the bus.


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[Morag]

IDK...I read an interesting post here, am still looking to find it again. It stated that there were other children in the apartment that night. I took it to mean that the other parents had left their kids with MM and the twins while they went to dinner. As in a sleepover. jmo moo
I would wonder : How old were the other kids ? How verbal were the other kids ? Where did the other kids actually sleep ? If they all slept in the same bedroom, I can't see how MM's absence would not have been noticed. On the other hand,if some of the kids slept in the living room, I can't see why someone looking to abduct a child would have walked past kids sleeping in the living room to get to MM. jmo moo
...SNIP
.

Hi, Liz!
That was my post you are mentioning, so I put both the original post (from 2007) and the one from day before yesterday together. I would dearly love to have a peek in The Times archives to see the whole story.

My post on October 9. 2007

Questions about the "Tapas 9" thread
The sleepover- timesonline


This is a sensational development, if true. The article says that all the kids were in the McCann's apartment, and that only the McCann's apartment was visited that night. A witness who was at the Ocean Club says that Jane Tanner was not where she said she was when she saw bundleman- this sounds like someone places her at the table during that period. PJ says they are sure Madeleine died in the apartment, they just don't know who concealed the body.
http://timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk...cle2621809.ece


My post on October 14, 2013

Crimewatch Reconstruction thread

The sleepover

I went back to look at some of my old posts, and found this, which I had totally forgotten about.

If true, this changes everything. It explains the random leaving the table to check on the kids- each couple was removing their children from the McCann apartment. And if this is true, it means that they mostly knew Madeleine had died or was in extremis at some point. What they probably didn't know was how it was going to play out.


http://timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk...cle2621809.ece

Quote:
However, a source within the investigation was quoted by 24 Horas as saying: “It’s not only the collected evidence that points to the fact that there were more children inside that [the McCanns'] apartment.

“Evidence also exists, following the interrogations to the other people who that were at the Ocean Club, that only the McCanns’ apartment was visited by the people who attended the dinner.”

I've always thought that the truth of what happened is known to a majority of the Tapas group. And looking back over only my own posts, I came across the part about the elderly British woman who lived upstairs. Not only did she hear Madeleine and one of the twins weeping the previous evening, she heard them the night of the abduction as well. So how could the Tapas 'listening squad' not have heard them when doing their checks?

I certainly have a theory about what happened, and I had it at the very beginning.

 

[blefuscu]

The Whites were used and promptly tossed under the bus.


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I have always felt heart sorry for the Whites. They were probably the most hurt in that whole case.

With these guys, I don't believe anyone. I feel for intelligent people, they were all doctors, they have been very stupid in not realising and speaking the truth.

 

[liz b.]

Hi, Liz!
That was my post you are mentioning, so I put both the original post (from 2007) and the one from day before yesterday together. I would dearly love to have a peek in The Times archives to see the whole story.

My post on October 9. 2007

Questions about the "Tapas 9" thread
The sleepover- timesonline


This is a sensational development, if true. The article says that all the kids were in the McCann's apartment, and that only the McCann's apartment was visited that night. A witness who was at the Ocean Club says that Jane Tanner was not where she said she was when she saw bundleman- this sounds like someone places her at the table during that period. PJ says they are sure Madeleine died in the apartment, they just don't know who concealed the body.[/I]
http://timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk...cle2621809.ece


My post on October 14, 2013

Crimewatch Reconstruction thread

The sleepover

I went back to look at some of my old posts, and found this, which I had totally forgotten about.

If true, this changes everything. It explains the random leaving the table to check on the kids- each couple was removing their children from the McCann apartment. And if this is true, it means that they mostly knew Madeleine had died or was in extremis at some point. What they probably didn't know was how it was going to play out.


http://timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk...cle2621809.ece

Quote:
However, a source within the investigation was quoted by 24 Horas as saying: “It’s not only the collected evidence that points to the fact that there were more children inside that [the McCanns'] apartment.

“Evidence also exists, following the interrogations to the other people who that were at the Ocean Club, that only the McCanns’ apartment was visited by the people who attended the dinner.”

I've always thought that the truth of what happened is known to a majority of the Tapas group. And looking back over only my own posts, I came across the part about the elderly British woman who lived upstairs. Not only did she hear Madeleine and one of the twins weeping the previous evening, she heard them the night of the abduction as well. So how could the Tapas 'listening squad' not have heard them when doing their checks?

I certainly have a theory about what happened, and I had it at the very beginning.

TY for re-posting it...good to know I didn't imagine it... It does tend to confuse things,if true. moo jmo. I have a very hard time with the idea that other people who went to dinner ( the tapas 7 ?) with the family would agree to cover up and obfuscate the murder of a little girl. Accidental or not. I wouldn't even consider doing it for my blood relatives,never mind people I only knew casually.No way in hello... And, I don't see how GM and his wife could think that no one would talk. No one would suffer pangs of conscience.Ever. Why not ??? jmo moo

 

[Pisces Cloud]

TY for re-posting it...good to know I didn't imagine it... It does tend to confuse things,if true. moo jmo. I have a very hard time with the idea that other people who went to dinner ( the tapas 7 ?) with the family would agree to cover up and obfuscate the murder of a little girl. Accidental or not. I wouldn't even consider doing it for my blood relatives,never mind people I only knew casually.No way in hello... And, I don't see how GM and his wife could think that no one would talk. No one would suffer pangs of conscience.Ever. Why not ??? jmo moo

Of all the theories pertaining to this case, all those people colluding to cover up the death of a child is the most ridiculous, IMO.

 

[liz b.]

I haven't heard of other kids being in the room that night ; it isn't seemingly part of the usual narrative. If it isn't true, the MDI theory is very viable moo jmo. Then again,it could be true... jmo moo

 

[Linda7NJ]

Hi, Liz!
That was my post you are mentioning, so I put both the original post (from 2007) and the one from day before yesterday together. I would dearly love to have a peek in The Times archives to see the whole story.

My post on October 9. 2007

Questions about the "Tapas 9" thread
The sleepover- timesonline


This is a sensational development, if true. The article says that all the kids were in the McCann's apartment, and that only the McCann's apartment was visited that night. A witness who was at the Ocean Club says that Jane Tanner was not where she said she was when she saw bundleman- this sounds like someone places her at the table during that period. PJ says they are sure Madeleine died in the apartment, they just don't know who concealed the body.[/I]
http://timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk...cle2621809.ece


My post on October 14, 2013

Crimewatch Reconstruction thread

The sleepover

I went back to look at some of my old posts, and found this, which I had totally forgotten about.

If true, this changes everything. It explains the random leaving the table to check on the kids- each couple was removing their children from the McCann apartment. And if this is true, it means that they mostly knew Madeleine had died or was in extremis at some point. What they probably didn't know was how it was going to play out.


http://timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk...cle2621809.ece

Quote:
However, a source within the investigation was quoted by 24 Horas as saying: “It’s not only the collected evidence that points to the fact that there were more children inside that [the McCanns'] apartment.

“Evidence also exists, following the interrogations to the other people who that were at the Ocean Club, that only the McCanns’ apartment was visited by the people who attended the dinner.”

I've always thought that the truth of what happened is known to a majority of the Tapas group. And looking back over only my own posts, I came across the part about the elderly British woman who lived upstairs. Not only did she hear Madeleine and one of the twins weeping the previous evening, she heard them the night of the abduction as well. So how could the Tapas 'listening squad' not have heard them when doing their checks?

I certainly have a theory about what happened, and I had it at the very beginning.

Very interesting!


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[Linda7NJ]

Of all the theories pertaining to this case, all those people colluding to cover up the death of a child is the most ridiculous, IMO.

I can only make it work if they all dosed their children.


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[Linda7NJ]

I'd like to know... What the others did with their children while ( Kate's account) they searched until 4am




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