Patsy Ramsey

[Tawny]

What do the trophies have to do with anything? I'm not following this line of thought?

I'm not commenting on why the trophies are being discussed (I'm not following it closely enough LOL), but when you asked, the thought "murder weapon?" popped into my head.

 

[bettybaby00]

What do the trophies have to do with anything? I'm not following this line of thought?

Thinking the same thing!

&& and lol, could never be effective to hit someone, I'm sure they're plastic!

 

[DeDee]

I have studied a few more pictures and cannot determine any other place in the home for the tacky white shelving unit stacked with trophies.

otg, whatcha think about the wall that is to your right when you enter the master bedroom suite from the hallway where the spiral stairway is located? I have been unsuccessful in locating a photo of an angled ceiling on the second floor.

http://hellhole_photos.tripod.com/thirdfloor.htm

It is difficult to imagine Patsy placing that white unit with the trophies on it in her bedroom. However, I recall reading about JonBenét telling a little playmate who commented on one of her trophies: "Oh, those belong in my mother's room" or "Those are my mom's."

The significance of the trophies that were discovered fallen over, for me, is to help determine where the initial altercation may have started. Without a smoking gun, everything becomes significant.

 

[otg]

I have studied a few more pictures and cannot determine any other place in the home for the tacky white shelving unit stacked with trophies.

otg, whatcha think about the wall that is to your right when you enter the master bedroom suite from the hallway where the spiral stairway is located? I have been unsuccessful in locating a photo of an angled ceiling on the second floor.

http://hellhole_photos.tripod.com/thirdfloor.htm

It is difficult to imagine Patsy placing that white unit with the trophies on it in her bedroom. However, I recall reading about JonBenét telling a little playmate who commented on one of her trophies: "Oh, those belong in my mother's room" or "Those are my mom's."

The significance of the trophies that were discovered fallen over, for me, is to help determine where the initial altercation may have started. Without a smoking gun, everything becomes significant.

DeDee, even though we don’t always necessarily agree on our deductions, I have to say that I admire your diligence and tenacity. For that, I’ll do whatever I can to assist you.

As for those who are questioning the reason for all this speculation, it is possible that one of the trophies might have been what caused the head blow. If one of them had a curved surface (especially if it had the curvature of a 5/8” diameter cylinder), it might fit the depressed fracture better than any other speculated weapon (baseball bat, Maglite, golf club).

The short answer to your question is that IMO the shelves shown with JonBenet’s trophies were located against the wall shown in the attached floorplan (at the bottom of this post) in green. I don’t see how that photo of the shelves could have been taken anywhere else in the house. While I wouldn’t call this a “children's play area” (as Schiller seems to have), I can see how its being just at the top of the stairs coming from the 2nd floor “Children’s Playroom”, they might have stored things there for the kids to have access. This wall area (sans the shelves) can be seen in this photo:

http://hellhole_photos.tripod.com/thirdfl5.gif

​

(Oops! See second attached photo. Looks like tripod didn't like the hotlink.)


The longer answer (with what I took into consideration) follows:

Here’s how I read (my comments in red) your quotes from Schiller’s book, PMPT:

Page 82 (describing JonBenet’s room):

"JonBenet's closet was stuffed with clothes. A small TV set with a built-in VCR sat on a shelf inside her closet. Other shelves had dozens of cartoon and Shirley Temple videos (this all describes what we see in the photo). To the right of the closet stood a pageant trophy as tall as the light switch (Seen in the far right of the photo. See Note 1*). Another trophy was even taller (This one is not shown in the photo, but is probably the one that was found lying down). There was a floor-to-ceiling Christmas tree in the room, too. In her bathroom hung an original pastel, called 'Tea for Two' by a Boulder artist."
​

Page 83 (describing the 3rd floor master bedroom):

"The third-floor master bedroom had a cathedral ceiling (See Note 2*) and a view of the Flatirons. A framed print of red flowers hung over the fireplace (We can see this in the photo of the master bedroom fireplace, although the flowers look more yellow to me). The king-size bed had a 4-foot-high hand-carved headboard. A rider workout machine sat beside an exercise bicycle. A corner desk held a computer. Displayed on the floor and shelves were twenty-three of JonBenet's pageant trophies. In a children's play area stood a 5-foot-tall pageant trophy next to one that measured 8-feet-1 (This would most likely not stand up in rooms on the 2nd floor. See Note 3*)."
​

(*Note 1):
In the US, 48” is the typical light switch height.

(*Note 2):
There is a difference between vaulted and cathedral ceilings. Both vaulted and cathedral ceilings make small rooms appear bigger by altering the ceiling. A cathedral ceiling is two equal, sloping sides that are parallel to the pitch of the roof. The two sides slope and meet at a ridge that runs across the length of the room. A vaulted ceiling does not have two equal, sloping sides that are parallel to the roof's pitch. It can have unequal sides, sloping sides, one sloping side, or a curved sloping side. Trusses are used to frame the ceiling. Looking at photos of the Ramsey 3rd floor, the master bedroom had a cathedral ceiling, as correctly described by Schiller. Because the 2nd floor ceilings would not be in contact with the roof, there would most likely be no slanted walls as appears in the photo of the trophy/game shelves.

(*Note 3):
In the US, the standard length for studs (the vertical boards that sustain a wall) is 92-5/8". In making a wall, the studs are fastened to 2 x 4 sill plates at the bottom, and a doubled top plate at the top. The top and bottom plates, all 2 x 4's (in most cases), are nominally 1.5" in thickness. That makes the total thickness of the plates 4-1/2 inches.

The sill plate is attached to the floor, and the ceiling joists rest on the uppermost top plate. So, from floor to ceiling, in a framed structure, the distance is 92-5/8" plus 4-1/2 inches, giving a total of 97-1/8 inches.

96 inches is 8 feet, which is considered the standard distance from floor to ceiling. But, in framing, consideration is given to additional ceiling and flooring materials which will be used.

Most bedrooms will have carpet, and gypsum board covers the ceiling. The gypsum board (sheetrock) is 1/2 inch thick, and carpet and padding is usually 3/4 thick. Adding these together, you have 1-1/4 inches that will be subtracted from the original framing height, to give the finished height of a typical modern ceiling.

Since the framing height is 8 feet and 1-1/8 inches, the typical height of a conventional residential home's ceiling will be 1/8" shy of eight feet, or seven feet and seven-eighths inches (over an inch shorter than the 8’-1” tall trophy).

Therefore (or should I say, “and hence&#8221, the trophy that Schiller says “measured 8-feet-1” would be too tall to stand up anywhere else but on the 3rd floor. So perhaps this is the one Schiller described in JonBenet’s bedroom as “even taller” than the one that was 4 foot tall? Maybe... but I would think if he was describing that one, rather than saying it was “even taller”, he’d instead have described it as “twice the height of the other one”.

Attached floorplan and wall photo:

 

[Venom]

Here's what I'm getting from the trophies being knocked over, is it a sign of a struggle in her room?
Yes, the trophies are probably plastic, but what about using the base as the head bash weapon? Aren't the bases a hard marble like material?

ETA: The base probably wouldn't be curved to fit the fracture....but what if a trophy from a sports team would have been used? Specifically I mean something to this effect:

 

[Chewy]

The base of a trophy could certainly be used as a weapon. But her head injury was a split below the surface of the skin if I'm not mistaken, no blood running down her face. So I doubt that a trophy could have been used

 

[DeeDee249]

To me, the only logical weapon was the heavy Maglight flashlight. It was found wiped clean inside and out- which NO intruder would do. It was wiped to they could claim it wasn't theirs- even though they admitted to having one "just like it" and admitted the drawer in which theirs was kept was open and empty in a crime photo. Had only the outside been wiped, finding the Rs prints on the batteries would prove it was theirs. Wiping the BATTERIES was a blatant attempt to distance themselves from the flashlight.
One of the forensic specialists who studied the case experimented with an identical flashlight and a cadaver skull- it produced a nearly identical rectangular depressed fracture.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

PR = HPD, possibly comorbid MPD and perhaps even MBP.

Yes, my informal bend on the lady.

moo


:twocents:

 

[4Jacy]

To me, the only logical weapon was the heavy Maglight flashlight. It was found wiped clean inside and out- which NO intruder would do. It was wiped to they could claim it wasn't theirs- even though they admitted to having one "just like it" and admitted the drawer in which theirs was kept was open and empty in a crime photo. Had only the outside been wiped, finding the Rs prints on the batteries would prove it was theirs. Wiping the BATTERIES was a blatant attempt to distance themselves from the flashlight.
One of the forensic specialists who studied the case experimented with an identical flashlight and a cadaver skull- it produced a nearly identical rectangular depressed fracture.

YES!! PR was sure JR was molesting JRB and she went to her room with the flashlight and, saw what was happening, lashed out at JB with the mag-lite, never meaning to strike JBR. My story from day one!

 

[DeDee]

MOTHERS WHO KILL THEIR CHILDREN

Patsy would have known from this murder, by this mother of her children, that was a very bloody and very messy because a butcher knife, from the house, was involved. Also, blood splattered all over the front of Darlie's nightshirt. Patsy would not want blood on her hands.

Ah, but killing would not be difficult. It would be a tidier murder if a knife were not the weapon.


JUNE 1996


Darlie Routier sits on Death Row but she was 26, in June, 1996 when a quiet, peaceful community just outside Garland, TX charged Darlie with stabbing to death two of her three sons, Devon b.1989 and Damon b.1991.

Drake, their 8mo baby, was found unharmed upstairs where her husband was also sleeping. The murders filled the front pages and NG Show.

"In 1997, a court found Darlie Lynn Routier guilty of probably the worst of human crimes: killing two of her natural children in cold-blood."

"Darlie called 911 at 2:31a.m. "Somebody broke in to our house...They just stabbed me and my children..." <snip> But, the caller continued to scream panic-stricken into the mouthpiece from her home..."My little boys are dying! Oh my God, my babies are dying!"

Darlie wiped away her son, Damon's bloody handprint from the back of the sofa that LE discovered when using Luminol. The kitchen counter and sink glowed when the copper in human blood mixed with Luminol indicated the recent presence of fairly large amounts of blood.

"The blood was contained within the house. Nowhere else."


"But, after Drake was born on October 18, 1995, the mother suffered postpartum depression. Mood swings drew sudden tempers and dark rages." Their lives suffered.

This is what happens after horrifying tragedies; especially a murder involving a mother and her child(ren): Publicity.
"Film crews and network anchors descended like locusts on the town," writes Barbara Davis in Precious Angels.

No signs of Struggle
Barbara Davis in Precious Angels: "Everything the professional saw at the crime scene disturbed him. The lack of a blood trail away from the home coupled with virtually no signs of a struggle bothered him most."

Cold as Ice
"Trauma nurse Jody Fitts, an RN for eight years, recalls, "Darlie was wheeled by Trauma Room 1, where her dead child was. She glanced over there, and I was very concerned she would get more upset. His physical condition alone was disconcerting. He was nude and covered head to toe in blood. Tubes were still held in place with tape, and brown bags had been placed around his little-bitty hands to preserve any possible evidence. It was a very stressful and horrible sight...I'll never forget it. (Darlie) saw him.

She had absolutely no response, just turned her head back and stared straight ahead cold as ice."

"The boys were suited in tiny tuxedos in separate walnut caskets, enveloped by roses of red and white. Upon entering the chapel, Darlie knelt at their sides and whispered to them (Detective Frosch overheard), "I'm sorry." She then wailed, "Who could have done this to my children?"

Darin's computer business had grown more successful.
"Their $130,000 two-story home of Georgian design resembled a miniature mansion with classic porch, colonial shutters and a working fountain on the front lawn. Complementing their new life, the family boasted a Jaguar, sitting waxed and gleaming in a circular driveway."

Does this sound familiar?
"At Christmas, their house was the most illumined, at Halloween their windows displayed more goblins than any other, at Thanksgiving the Routier's turkey was the largest and most flavorful. On the children's birthdays, Darlie threw gorgeous parties <snip> ."

And who was described by whom of being flashy? Yes, JAR said it of PR.
"Darlie's detractors say that her need to be the flashiest, gaudiest, eventually overcame everything else in her life including her children."


http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/women/routier/1.html

OMO

 

[THE BUNK]

Patsy would have known from this murder, by this mother of her children, that was a very bloody and very messy because a butcher knife, from the house, was involved. Also, blood splattered all over the front of Darlie's nightshirt. Patsy would not want blood on her hands.

She also did not want to have to cut her own throat either. Something that I believed Darlie did. Nor stab herself in the lung like John McDonald. Strangling a corpse is a far more easier task then either of those options.

 

[DeDee]

JonBenét was not a corpse when she was strangled.


Killing would not be easy for me. Period.


But, more about Patsy...

Patsy died in Roswell, in 2006, at her father's home, when the very next day the art show opened in Charlevoix where she had a booth to display her paintings. This piece Patsy rushed to complete being dying.

Betty Morris Hamilton​

When the image of Ramsey's artwork appeared in The Post, a reader recognized it as strikingly similar to one called "Pals" from the collection of artist Betty Morris Hamilton of Guntersville, Ala.

Side by side, the resemblance is unmistakable. Ramsey's colors, though more intense, are much the same as those in Hamilton's original. The position of the arms, the streaks in the hair, the shades on the sand all look like Hamilton's work.

I called the artist in Alabama, expecting indignation. Instead I got tenderness.

Hamilton looked at the image of Ramsey's painting. She paused. Then in her sweet Southern drawl she suggested that maybe Ramsey had used her artwork "as a guide."

"I've always wanted my paintings to bless people," she said. "I consider my artistic ability a gift from God. It doesn't belong to me. If this painting blessed her in any way, it accomplished what I intended.

"How can I feel bad about that?"

In addition to Hamilton's generous spirit, Ramsey was blessed by the rules governing artists who exhibit at the Summer Solstice Art Show in Charlevoix.

There are no references to plagiarism in the applications, only requirements that items to be sold be "handmade."


Beach painting by Patsy Ramsey adds another layer of mystery
- The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_4064157#ixzz2zmHsVTWG

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_4064157

 

[HMSHood]

I think Patsy Ramsey had something to do with the crime. At the very least, she is complicit. I do not think a stranger did the killing of JonBenet Ramsey.

JonBenet Ramsey brought attention to children beauty pageant, which I find appalling.

Patsy Ramsey's Handwriting
http://www.writinganalysis.com/ramsey.html

I recalled seeing a comparison between ransom note and Patsy Ramsey's handwriting. They looked rather similar.

 

[Junebug99]

Thanks for posting that, it's funny how we've been so used to hearing for years that Patsy dressed her like a highly sexualized Vegas stripper but most of those costumes were very normal dance costumes for kids. Seriously, only two seemed even slightly questionable.

I'm wondering how many parents have a dd in dance? The costumes during recital week are skimpy and the make- up ridiculously thick, I see no difference between dancers and pageant girls.

 

[DeeDee249]

I'm wondering how many parents have a dd in dance? The costumes during recital week are skimpy and the make- up ridiculously thick, I see no difference between dancers and pageant girls.

I have a daughter who was a professional ballerina from age 8 till she went to college. At that point, college was her best option as she was 5'7" by then. Dancing en pointe (in toe shoes) adds 3 inches, so you are then a 5'10" ballerina and too tall for most ballet companies. She dances with some major ballet companies- Boston Ballet being one of them.
However, her schools were not the "tap, jazz, ballet" type of school as is featured on shows like "Dance Moms". There were no skimpy costumes and no sexy dance moves. It is unfair to paint all dancers with the same brush. Just as there are many types of pageants that are NOT the "glitz" type that stress sexually provocative costumes and moves.

 

[Chewy]

Not all dancers are dancing like this but it's a huge problem. It's not just limited to pageants.

http://www.momlogic.com/2010/05/dance_contest_or_kiddie_porn.php?page=5

 

[Darly314]

Not all dancers are dancing like this but it's a huge problem. It's not just limited to pageants.

http://www.momlogic.com/2010/05/dance_contest_or_kiddie_porn.php?page=5

The costumes add to the sexual element. Different clothes, the same routine, would not have been so.....risque. A one time bump/grind from a child that age can be cute, but not an entire dance in imitation stripper clothes.

 

[DeeDee249]

Not all dancers are dancing like this but it's a huge problem. It's not just limited to pageants.

http://www.momlogic.com/2010/05/dance_contest_or_kiddie_porn.php?page=5

I totally agree. It IS a huge problem. It is part of the larger problem of the sexualizing of very young girls. And as a side effect, hypersexuality in young boys occurs. This is were parents come into it. Every one of those moms has visions of world-wide fame and stardom for their daughters. And in vain, for the majority of them. It is time for parents- for the MOMS- to step up and say that they will not allow it to happen to their kids. That is the cure- the parents have t step up to the plate and say that it is not appropriate. All the trophies and tiaras in the world cannot replace a childhood that ended too soon. Once gone, it can never be reclaimed.
JB was TAUGHT to behave in a more "mature" manner on stage. When I look at her pageant videos I see a beautiful CHILD. But others see something more. Her innocence is still there in her eyes and face, if not in her pageant moves. But that was light years away from what is seen today. If that was shocking back then, what would you call what is happening today? I'd call it abominable.

 

[Darly314]

I totally agree. It IS a huge problem. It is part of the larger problem of the sexualizing of very young girls. And as a side effect, hypersexuality in young boys occurs. This is were parents come into it. Every one of those moms has visions of world-wide fame and stardom for their daughters. And in vain, for the majority of them. It is time for parents- for the MOMS- to step up and say that they will not allow it to happen to their kids. That is the cure- the parents have t step up to the plate and say that it is not appropriate. All the trophies and tiaras in the world cannot replace a childhood that ended too soon. Once gone, it can never be reclaimed.
JB was TAUGHT to behave in a more "mature" manner on stage. When I look at her pageant videos I see a beautiful CHILD. But others see something more. Her innocence is still there in her eyes and face, if not in her pageant moves. But that was light years away from what is seen today. If that was shocking back then, what would you call what is happening today? I'd call it abominable.

Such events "sell"; without consumers, and media coverage....no more kiddie pageants. So adults who believe kids should allowed to BE kids should not participate, and object to media coverage. Were it still hometowns having a portion of the local beauty pageant for kids, that is a local event. But there are now nationwide circuits. The time and money invested in JonBenet Ramsey's beauty career is surprising. Very few poor kids CAN compete, and that alone isn't positive for young people today; I grew up with science fairs, debate, band, and quiz competitions. All related to SCHOOL, and learning. Now, Miss Tiny _____ is covered by the media as though beauty contests were part of many childrens' lives.

 

[Junebug99]

If we are getting rid of pageants are we also going to get rid of dance? Competitive cheer?