IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #36

[alliemay]

I would be interested in knowing if those mistakes happened after or before the girls were taken. If after the public may never know if any of these mistakes were with the evidence collected at Myers Lake or Seven Bridges.

 

[carbuff]

snipped for focus by CB

Even though it was mainly Misty and Dan on the drug end, this family was intertwined because of drugs, i.e. Aunt Tammy and her kids, Uncle 'Miah and his friends. I think Heather and Drew would be eager to help someone in need and that someone could be exactly the person who would take advantage of their kindness by taking these girls from them.

Not sure whether I agree about the investigation, but I do agree with this. There are some shady people in their extended family, and the friends of friends.

 

[carbuff]

The only time I felt less confident in the FBI was when they were the ones to state that the girls were alive. That was a very bold statement to make without them even knowing where the girls were. Every one is human, we all make mistakes.

We all make mistakes, but we also don't know when the girls died. It's possible that at the point when the FBI said that, it was true.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Thank you Grainne Dhu! You make an excellent point as always. Good to see you back in action! I agree the FBI would have discounted no one. We see cases end where the perpetuator was on "the list" from the beginning, and then there are those rare cases where the perpetuator was never on the radar.

P.S.: Run Bambi Run! Just kidding of course...

Because the perpetrator likely had detailed local knowledge, I think he will be on one or more lists but probably not near the top. That's why I'm trying to think of additional lists to compile. Even if he's not near the top on the one list he's on, if LE comes up with additional categories to list and he pops up there, then being on more lists will automatically move his name up overall. If you see what I mean.

I really wonder if the perp is someone who moved away from the Waterloo/Cedar Falls metro area before the girls were abducted. Say he moved away between 2005 and 2010. That would be long enough ago that his name would not pop up as a resident but recent enough that all his local knowledge would still be relevant.

The problem with that theory is that I don't see any easy way to compile a list of names from it. It's a metro area, people move away all the time and particularly since the time period includes the economic crash, the number of people moving (both in and away) would have been even higher.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

The only time I felt less confident in the FBI was when they were the ones to state that the girls were alive. That was a very bold statement to make without them even knowing where the girls were. Every one is human, we all make mistakes.

I saw that as stemming mostly from a PR motive because I've seen the FBI make the same statement in other missing persons cases. They want to keep local hope high in order to maximise the number of search volunteers. The reasoning goes "well, we don't have any actual proof of death or severe injury, so the victim(s) could still be alive."

In every single case where the FBI made such a statement, they quietly dropped it about 2 months after the disappearance.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Yes, that was the moment in the investigation I literally shook my head and said "huh?" And the FBI has made some mistakes...

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fb...s-in-nearly-all-trials-before-2000/ar-AAbgTt6

And then there was this (not FBI, but still wth?):

http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/State-Crime-Lab-Fires-Worker-After-Noting-Errors-186401141.html

Argggh! This all brings me back to I think Lyric and Lizzy's case was bungled from the beginning...

It doesn't for me.

The FBI scandal has been rumoured and brewing since about 2000. That's when defence lawyers started really aggressively going after hair analysis techs and after seeing basically the same level of aggression and types of questions in cases over several states, I figured there was something hinky about hair analysis.

The DCI tech was handling fingerprints; if there were any fingerprints found in Elizabeth and Lyric's case, it didn't make it into the media. And since the FBI was so involved, I think any fingerprint evidence would have been handled by the FBI.

But do you see the thing the two scandals have in common? They're both about the handling of forensic evidence. They're not about the gathering of forensic evidence and they're not about interrogations by investigators.

The possible ways this case might have been bungled that have been brought up recently in this thread are all about investigator mistakes. So far, I haven't seen anything to suggest that the FBI does not have the best qualified interrogators in the world. They really are the best when it comes to interviewing people, getting a statement and then trying to pick that statement apart.

I am 100% convinced that an arrest will be based on investigator interviews and that whoever the perp is, he is so tangential to the two families that he was never interviewed at length.

 

[Copper]

I assume this is so, but I'll ask. Was there every any information released stating friends and classmates of Lyric and Lizzie were interviewed and not just adult family and friends of the family?

 

[threecrazykids]

I can't be so sure things were handled correctly straight out the shoot...and this falls on Edale Pd.
We know from the family that after the girls bikes were found, THAT VERY NIGHT - Tammy claims that once they took down the tape her and the familtwentieth into the wooded area and "did their own investigation".
IMO there are no two ways about it, that was a HUGE mistake on LE's part.
At that point they likely had no idea about Dan or Misty or Tammy's background, nor did they think the girls were abducted. Drew claimed to have
Did he also participate in the investigation of the wooded area as well?

My point being...theoretically speaking...if ANY evidence on the back end maybe tied anyone familial to their disappearance - them being in that woods shot that proof to hell of putting anyone at the scene of abduction for a prosecuting attorney.
"They were all there...AFTER their bikes were found"...says the defense attorney.
And Lord only knows how many "volunteer searchers" who could ALSO have been the per can explain why their DNA or scent etc was found at that location.

I make no qualms about saying this...LE screwed up big time on that piece.
Hopefully there would be plenty more evidence at Seven Bridges....but Meyers Lake is a bust IMO.

 

[threecrazykids]

I can't be so sure things were handled correctly straight out the shoot...and this falls on Edale Pd.
We know from the family that after the girls bikes were found, THAT VERY NIGHT - Tammy claims that once they took down the tape her and the familtwent into the wooded area and "did their own investigation".
IMO there are no two ways about it, that was a HUGE mistake on LE's part.
At that point they likely had no idea about Dan or Misty or Tammy's background, nor did they think the girls were abducted. Drew claimed to have identified the bikes.
Did he also participate in the investigation of the wooded area as well?

My point being...theoretically speaking...if ANY evidence on the back end maybe tied anyone familial to their disappearance - them being in that woods shot that proof to hell of putting anyone at the scene of abduction for a prosecuting attorney.
"They were all there...AFTER their bikes were found"...says the defense attorney.
And Lord only knows how many "volunteer searchers" who could ALSO have been the perp can explain why their DNA or scent etc was found at that location.

I make no qualms about saying this...LE screwed up big time on that piece.
Hopefully there would be plenty more evidence at Seven Bridges....but Meyers Lake is a bust IMO.

 

[iamnotagolem]

I can't be so sure things were handled correctly straight out the shoot...and this falls on Edale Pd.
We know from the family that after the girls bikes were found, THAT VERY NIGHT - Tammy claims that once they took down the tape her and the familtwent into the wooded area and "did their own investigation".
IMO there are no two ways about it, that was a HUGE mistake on LE's part.
At that point they likely had no idea about Dan or Misty or Tammy's background, nor did they think the girls were abducted. Drew claimed to have identified the bikes.
Did he also participate in the investigation of the wooded area as well?

My point being...theoretically speaking...if ANY evidence on the back end maybe tied anyone familial to their disappearance - them being in that woods shot that proof to hell of putting anyone at the scene of abduction for a prosecuting attorney.
"They were all there...AFTER their bikes were found"...says the defense attorney.
And Lord only knows how many "volunteer searchers" who could ALSO have been the perp can explain why their DNA or scent etc was found at that location.

I make no qualms about saying this...LE screwed up big time on that piece.
Hopefully there would be plenty more evidence at Seven Bridges....but Meyers Lake is a bust IMO.

I agree 100%

I'm a supporter of LE and typically think they do an excellent job, but this case seems to have missed the mark.

 

[carbuff]

That sort of evidence wouldn't have much value in a heavily used public space like that anyway. It could have been there from the day before, or the week before.

Is scent evidence allowed in trials in Iowa? I'm pretty sure it's not in MA. It's just an investigative tool, like polygraphs.

 

[Marilynilpa]

I can't be so sure things were handled correctly straight out the shoot...and this falls on Edale Pd.
We know from the family that after the girls bikes were found, THAT VERY NIGHT - Tammy claims that once they took down the tape her and the familtwent into the wooded area and "did their own investigation".
IMO there are no two ways about it, that was a HUGE mistake on LE's part.
At that point they likely had no idea about Dan or Misty or Tammy's background, nor did they think the girls were abducted. Drew claimed to have identified the bikes.
Did he also participate in the investigation of the wooded area as well?

My point being...theoretically speaking...if ANY evidence on the back end maybe tied anyone familial to their disappearance - them being in that woods shot that proof to hell of putting anyone at the scene of abduction for a prosecuting attorney.
"They were all there...AFTER their bikes were found"...says the defense attorney.
And Lord only knows how many "volunteer searchers" who could ALSO have been the perp can explain why their DNA or scent etc was found at that location.

I make no qualms about saying this...LE screwed up big time on that piece.
Hopefully there would be plenty more evidence at Seven Bridges....but Meyers Lake is a bust IMO.

And IIRC, Dan later rode through the area on a four-wheeler.

That area should have been taped off and a policeman should have been posted to keep an eye on things.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

That sort of evidence wouldn't have much value in a heavily used public space like that anyway. It could have been there from the day before, or the week before.

Is scent evidence allowed in trials in Iowa? I'm pretty sure it's not in MA. It's just an investigative tool, like polygraphs.

It can be used to establish probable cause for a search warrant but is not usually used in trials. I'm sure there are some sort of very rare, weird exceptions where it would be allowed but have never seen it.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Some more info on the new child abduction response team (CART).

http://m.kcci.com/news/iowa-adds-new-child-abduction-response-team/33080942

 

[song22]

Because the perpetrator likely had detailed local knowledge, I think he will be on one or more lists but probably not near the top. That's why I'm trying to think of additional lists to compile. Even if he's not near the top on the one list he's on, if LE comes up with additional categories to list and he pops up there, then being on more lists will automatically move his name up overall. If you see what I mean.

I really wonder if the perp is someone who moved away from the Waterloo/Cedar Falls metro area before the girls were abducted. Say he moved away between 2005 and 2010. That would be long enough ago that his name would not pop up as a resident but recent enough that all his local knowledge would still be relevant.

The problem with that theory is that I don't see any easy way to compile a list of names from it. It's a metro area, people move away all the time and particularly since the time period includes the economic crash, the number of people moving (both in and away) would have been even higher.

One way to sleuth would be to look at friends of the family who have moved away--not everyone in Waterloo. (since most of the time it is someone the victim knows) There seems to be a big Florida connection for the family.

I've had my eye on someone who was a long-time local and childhood friend of one of the parents, would have known the area inside and out, had substance abuse and mental health issues and some mild trouble with the law in Waterloo but was able to talk his way out of. He moved away a few years before the girls went missing--but came back regularly to see old friends and family (a small circle) He has had some trouble with the law down in his new state, but always seems to be able to escape accountability- He seems like the kind of person who is often enabled by family members and close friends (he doesn't have very many)--like "yeah, he's weird/struggling/mentally ill, but he's basically harmless." He also was back in town during the time frame the girls went missing and then out of state right after again. He has a relationship to the Collins. I called it in a long time ago and so did another Websleuther. I sure hope they took it seriously, because I'm stuck on him. He reminds me of the creepy younger killer in Silence of the Lambs--just a weird dude, not many close friends, anti-social behavior. I'm actually going to call him in again. They should see if he ever was in treatment as the same place as Klunder.

I won't give anymore details, because I don't want to get in trouble. But yeah, people close to the family who may have grown up there and moved away.

 

[Squeeze]

One way to sleuth would be to look at friends of the family who have moved away--not everyone in Waterloo. (since most of the time it is someone the victim knows) There seems to be a big Florida connection for the family.

I've had my eye on someone who was a long-time local and childhood friend of one of the parents, would have known the area inside and out, had substance abuse and mental health issues and some mild trouble with the law in Waterloo but was able to talk his way out of. He moved away a few years before the girls went missing--but came back regularly to see old friends and family (a small circle) He has had some trouble with the law down in his new state, but always seems to be able to escape accountability- He seems like the kind of person who is often enabled by family members and close friends (he doesn't have very many)--like "yeah, he's weird/struggling/mentally ill, but he's basically harmless." He also was back in town during the time frame the girls went missing and then out of state right after again. He has a relationship to the Collins. I called it in a long time ago and so did another Websleuther. I sure hope they took it seriously, because I'm stuck on him. He reminds me of the creepy younger killer in Silence of the Lambs--just a weird dude, not many close friends, anti-social behavior. I'm actually going to call him in again. They should see if he ever was in treatment as the same place as Klunder.

I won't give anymore details, because I don't want to get in trouble. But yeah, people close to the family who may have grown up there and moved away.

I was just thinking the same thing......

 

[Marilynilpa]

Here is even more info about CART:

http://m.kcci.com/news/iowa-adds-new-child-abduction-response-team/33080942

"In July 2012, 8-year-old Elizabeth Collins and 10-year-old Lyric Cook, both of Evansdale, went missing. Their bodies were discovered almost five months later at a nearby wildlife park.

An investigation conducted by multiple local, state and federal agencies has not discovered the girls’ abductor."

So obviously Smock wasn't the only one leading this investigation.

 

[song22]

Just a follow-up. I did email the tip line again and they assured me that they had followed up--they said they can't say what was done, but that they did take it seriously, so that's good.

 

[AmandaReckonwith]

Elizabeth Collins and Lyric Cook-Morrissey Case Archive:

http://s296.photobucket.com/user/cr...ns - Lyric Cook-Morrissey -IA-?sort=6&page=1

 

[Coldpizza]

New thread for Elizabeth and Lyric :rose:


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