MD - Freddie Gray dies in police custody #3 *INDICTMENT*

[sonjay]

Right. But if you address the police problems by marching and screaming ' EFF DA POLICE' and " We Don't need no racist Police' and you have 30 agitators surround individual cops when they do try and investigate a disturbance--then what? How are the police supposed to do their jobs effectively? Why not protest the individual cops that have been abusive instead of berating and insulting ALL of the force?

When the cops see a suspicious car in a strip mall lot at 3 am, NO WAY are they going to go investigate it. Why would they? It is all bad for them if they do so. Dangerous physically, and if they do win in an altercation they have to run the public gauntlent.

In Vonderrit Meyers case you had a gang member wearing an ankle bracelet, out on bail for illegal weapons and resisting arrest, who ran from a cop, then turned and fired on him, before he was shot. And even that case was touch and go for the officer. The community was outraged at the shooting and said the cops planted the gun and the cop shot him in the back etc etc. But then when the hearing happened, NO EVIDENCE OF ANY OF THAT brought forward by all of those that shouted about it.

Why would a cop want to be in that position? A totally justified shooting, where one almost loses their own life or limb, only to be dragged through the mud publicly, and threatened with murder charges and receiving death threats.

No competent cop wants to be in that position. They can't stop people, talk to people, frisk people, or do any sort of proactive policing, because it's corrupt and racist and abuse of authority and oppressive. If they do stop anyone or arrest anyone, they're immediately surrounded by dozens of angry people ready to attack and riot. If they survive and manage to actually make an arrest, they're at risk of being charged criminally if they make any mistakes. Yet it's their fault that the criminals in Baltimore are emboldened by the leash on the police.

I predict that things are going to get a lot worse in B'more, because all of the good cops are going to leave B'more PD and go work somewhere with sane working conditions, in a city where the majority of residents, the city council, and the mayor actually support law enforcement. What's going to be left will be a Baltimore PD filled with the incompetent and corrupt cops who can't get work with a good police department.

I hope this little experiment works out well for Baltimore. At least it'll serve as an object lesson for the rest of us on how not to approach law enforcement.

 

[katydid23]

poor little misunderstood minorities.

Am I oversensitive, or are any other minority people feeling insulted by this? You must know that some of the people you are addressing are, in fact, minorities. I mean, what if I called the police "poor little misunderstood white guys"



As Cool J said, ' "There is a problem with gangs and drugs and violence and there is a problem with police corruption and brutality. Both need to be addressed."

I don't think using such condescending terms furthers our goal of open communication and dealing with the difficult problems facing both Baltimore police and the citizens of Baltimore. It sounds more like a line drawn in the sand.

Sorry to be off-topic. I know this is a thread about Freddy Gray. But I would like for everyone to be able to read it without being insulted.

I totally understand why that would seem offensive. I don't think it was meant that way but you are right for pointing it out. We need to be able to discuss and communicate openly and not sound condescending.

 

[Montjoy]

I don't think using such condescending terms furthers our goal of open communication and dealing with the difficult problems facing both Baltimore police and the citizens of Baltimore. It sounds more like a line drawn in the sand.

It's probably best just to report posts that use clearly inflammatory/insulting/offensive language.

 

[Dana]

I'm thinking mysteryview meant criminals but yeah, report it and if we get enough of them, the mods will close the thread again.

We can also ROLL AND SCROLL and or use the IGNORE feature but closed works too.

 

[kareylou]

It's probably best just to report posts that use clearly inflammatory/insulting/offensive language.

You're absolutely right. My reply could just derail things further.
I will do that, and delete the post. Thanks for the heads-up.

 

[Minette]

Well, it's frustrating, we are all just aching to discuss stuff, and I think like 95% of us can discuss things respectfully, even if our opinions vary widely, but there's always the few who flame up and post insults/report like mad until the mods have no choice but to close things down. I do appreciate CoolJ's perspective, even when he/she (I don't know, I'm bad at figuring out that stuff!) has a dissenting opinion, but what can I say, I like being challenged. If I can't come up with a reasoned response, then maybe I need to reconsider my opinions.

 

[katydid23]

Exactly. If we alert on every post that upsets us, this thread will be closed down. think we are having a productive discussion and would hate for that to happen.

 

[CoolJ]

No competent cop wants to be in that position. They can't stop people, talk to people, frisk people, or do any sort of proactive policing, because it's corrupt and racist and abuse of authority and oppressive. If they do stop anyone or arrest anyone, they're immediately surrounded by dozens of angry people ready to attack and riot. If they survive and manage to actually make an arrest, they're at risk of being charged criminally if they make any mistakes. Yet it's their fault that the criminals in Baltimore are emboldened by the leash on the police.

I predict that things are going to get a lot worse in B'more, because all of the good cops are going to leave B'more PD and go work somewhere with sane working conditions, in a city where the majority of residents, the city council, and the mayor actually support law enforcement. What's going to be left will be a Baltimore PD filled with the incompetent and corrupt cops who can't get work with a good police department.

I hope this little experiment works out well for Baltimore. At least it'll serve as an object lesson for the rest of us on how not to approach law enforcement.

It appears to me everything you say here is true, yet the BBM may have already happened. You are exactly right.

 

[CoolJ]

Well, it's frustrating, we are all just aching to discuss stuff, and I think like 95% of us can discuss things respectfully, even if our opinions vary widely, but there's always the few who flame up and post insults/report like mad until the mods have no choice but to close things down. I do appreciate CoolJ's perspective, even when he/she (I don't know, I'm bad at figuring out that stuff!) has a dissenting opinion, but what can I say, I like being challenged. If I can't come up with a reasoned response, then maybe I need to reconsider my opinions.

I don't think we have differing opinions. I just get frustrated when nobody is willing to acknowledge that some cities have a problem within their police departments. It's not me giving my opinion. I am going by reported incidents. Some 100+ incidents of brutality in the last 4 years to the tune of 4+ million in lawsuit settlements and a DOJ investigation. Quite possibly the problems with the BPD are a direct result of decades of violence within the city. Maybe that is the only way to combat such extreme gang activity. I don't know. I just don't think the brutality and corruption should be ignored. JMO

 

[sonjay]

I don't think we have differing opinions. I just get frustrated when nobody is willing to acknowledge that some cities have a problem within their police departments. It's not me giving my opinion. I am going by reported incidents. Some 100+ incidents of brutality in the last 4 years to the tune of 4+ million in lawsuit settlements and a DOJ investigation. Quite possibly the problems with the BPD are a direct result of decades of violence within the city. Maybe that is the only way to combat such extreme gang activity. I don't know. I just don't think the brutality and corruption should be ignored. JMO

BBM #1: It's simply not true that "nobody is willing to acknowledge" yada yada yada. Plenty of people, including me, are willing to recognize that there are problems within LE. I'm still so enraged about the Baby Bou-Bou incident that I can hardly see straight. But that doesn't mean that every time someone cries "police brutality" that it's true. It doesn't mean that every cop who is charged with false arrest is guilty. It doesn't even mean that any of the Baltimore 6 did anything with the intent to harm Freddie Gray.

BBM #2: "100+ incidents of brutality in the last 4 years" — even assuming that's true, that compares to 100+ homicides in Baltimore so far just this year, and May isn't even over with yet. Plus I don't even know how many assaults, robberies, rapes, muggings, arsons, lootings, and other crimes that didn't result in a death.

There's a BIG problem and there's a much smaller problem. If my house has a caving-in roof and a burned-out lightbulb, I don't give them equal importance. The non-criminal people of Baltimore are suffering much much more at the hands of the violent criminals than they are at the hands of the police.

 

[Montjoy]

Exactly. If we alert on every post that upsets us, this thread will be closed down. think we are having a productive discussion and would hate for that to happen.

Alternately, people could just follow the rules and TOS to which they agreed when they became members here. It's not people reporting objectionable posts that get threads shut down -- it's people repeatedly breaking TOS.

Scroll and roll is a great way of dealing with irreconcilable differences of opinion and personality conflicts. Reporting posts are for rule violations that ruin the conversation and civility. Blaming people who report posts for getting threads shut down is no different from blaming police for the crime rate -- after all, if the police didn't arrest anyone, there would be no crime rate.

 

[katydid23]

I don't think we have differing opinions. I just get frustrated when nobody is willing to acknowledge that some cities have a problem within their police departments. It's not me giving my opinion. I am going by reported incidents. Some 100+ incidents of brutality in the last 4 years to the tune of 4+ million in lawsuit settlements and a DOJ investigation. Quite possibly the problems with the BPD are a direct result of decades of violence within the city. Maybe that is the only way to combat such extreme gang activity. I don't know. I just don't think the brutality and corruption should be ignored. JMO

Of course there is abuse within the system. There are cops who are too aggressive and who are downright abusive. I know it is true and they need to be weeded out and charged and punished if there is evidence of the transgressions.

But just because someone reports an incident it does not mean it is a truthful accusation. I think we saw a lot of that recently when everyone THOUGHT they saw a cop shoot a protester in the back LIVE on FOX News. It was not at all what it looked like, but it spread like wildfire. And I saw several people swear on camera that they saw the whole thing and they saw blood on his back and bla bla bla. And the crowd was going nuts about the cop shooting this guy and it went nuts on twitter and took off from there. And it was a misfire, no one was hit. The reporter tried to say he heard the shot and saw him fall BUT HE DID NOT KNOW IF HE WAS SHOT. But it was too late to stop that.

So just because someone says they saw something abusive does not always make it so.

Also, you bring up an interesting point that is difficult to discuss calmly. you said:

"Quite possibly the problems with the BPD are a direct result of decades of violence within the city. Maybe that is the only way to combat such extreme gang activity."


It is really hard, scary and dangerous to wear a badge and walk around at night in some urban neighborhoods. You cannot be all smiley, let your guard down, be trusting and friendly. You can be that way walking the beat in pairs in daylight. To some extent. But doing the gang detail on the street, you know there are AK-47's in the car behind you. There are people who want to kill you. I don't think most of us have any idea how it feels to go work a job where you know that there many people who HATE you enough to kill you, simply because of your job. EVERY SINGLE time they have a traffic stop or answer a call, they have to assume that someone might want to harm them. If not, they might die.

Look what has happened in the past weeks since the cops pulled back. The violence has been unleashed. The only thing that was reigning that in previously was the brave and aggressive attitudes and the proactive policing. They usually stop suspicious cars, detain people loitering on the streets, and frisk groups of teens out and about at 3 am. It takes guts and aggressive attitudes to be able to do that. You don't pull up on a group of Crips and say sweetly and kindly, can I check your pockets>? If they feel weakness they will take advantage of it.

I don't think corruption or brutality should be ignored either. But I have looked at each of these cases that everyone lists as horrible abusive murders on unarmed victims, and there is usually another side that makes it understandable, imo. When I look through the long list that is supposed to convince me that the cops in the country are out of control and wanting to kill innocent victims, I am not convinced at all. JMO


I don't know about Freddie's case yet. So much info we do not have yet. But I don't know for sure that the first officers did anything that calls for them to be charged with murder. JMO

ETA: I forgot my original point. LOL

The gangs are effective in controlling their hood by being scary. They NEED people to fear them. And people do fear them.

How can the gang detail combat the gangs if they are not also feared by the gangs. A car full of Bloods needs to be afraid the cops will shoot back if they start shooting first. They need to fear the cops. If they did not fear them, the cops could not set foot in their neighborhood. JMO

 

[Montjoy]

I don't know about Freddie's case yet. So much info we do not have yet. But I don't know for sure that the first officers did anything that calls for them to be charged with murder. JMO

Well, the Grand Jury has seen plenty of evidence. They didn't have any problem voting true on pretty much every count for which the officers were initially charged. So the evidence must be fairly compelling.

 

[Minette]

X

I don't think we have differing opinions. I just get frustrated when nobody is willing to acknowledge that some cities have a problem within their police departments. It's not me giving my opinion. I am going by reported incidents. Some 100+ incidents of brutality in the last 4 years to the tune of 4+ million in lawsuit settlements and a DOJ investigation. Quite possibly the problems with the BPD are a direct result of decades of violence within the city. Maybe that is the only way to combat such extreme gang activity. I don't know. I just don't think the brutality and corruption should be ignored. JMO

Gosh, I live in the metro Atlanta area. So many elected LE suspected/indicted on corruption charges, and let's not even go into crib baby injured by flash bomb. I get it, I do.

 

[CoolJ]

BBM #1: It's simply not true that "nobody is willing to acknowledge" yada yada yada. Plenty of people, including me, are willing to recognize that there are problems within LE. I'm still so enraged about the Baby Bou-Bou incident that I can hardly see straight. But that doesn't mean that every time someone cries "police brutality" that it's true. It doesn't mean that every cop who is charged with false arrest is guilty. It doesn't even mean that any of the Baltimore 6 did anything with the intent to harm Freddie Gray.

BBM #2: "100+ incidents of brutality in the last 4 years" — even assuming that's true, that compares to 100+ homicides in Baltimore so far just this year, and May isn't even over with yet. Plus I don't even know how many assaults, robberies, rapes, muggings, arsons, lootings, and other crimes that didn't result in a death.

There's a BIG problem and there's a much smaller problem. If my house has a caving-in roof and a burned-out lightbulb, I don't give them equal importance. The non-criminal people of Baltimore are suffering much much more at the hands of the violent criminals than they are at the hands of the police.

That is where we have a fundamental disagreement. I believe one dishonest cop is a much more alarming of an issue than 100 drug pushing gang bangers. My trust lies in the brave men and women who choose that profession . I place no trust in the gang bangers.

And then we have the problem of all the good honest passionate LEO's who have to work along side the dirty ones. Those scumbags place a dark cloud over the whole department.
Look up the story of Joe Crystal. An excellent young cop in the BPD who was climbing the ranks up to detective after only a few years ,yet when he decided to shine a light on the brutality of his colleagues he was quickly labelled a rat (actually had a dead rat placed on his car windshield). ThE BPD lost a really good cop so that they could save a few dirty ones. That is a monumental problem in my books.

 

[katydid23]

Well, the Grand Jury has seen plenty of evidence. They didn't have any problem voting true on pretty much every count for which the officers were initially charged. So the evidence must be fairly compelling.

What is the saying---a Grand Jury could indict a ham sammie? The prosecutor is the only side that presents evidence. The defense is not heard or considered in most GJ cases. So we will see when ALL of the evidence is presented. JMO

 

[sonjay]

That is where we have a fundamental disagreement. I believe one dishonest cop is a much more alarming of an issue than 100 drug pushing gang bangers. My trust lies in the brave men and women who choose that profession . I place no trust in the gang bangers.

And then we have the problem of all the good honest passionate LEO's who have to work along side the dirty ones. Those scumbags place a dark cloud over the whole department.
Look up the story of Joe Crystal. An excellent young cop in the BPD who was climbing the ranks up to detective after only a few years ,yet when he decided to shine a light on the brutality of his colleagues he was quickly labelled a rat (actually had a dead rat placed on his car windshield). ThE BPD lost a really good cop so that they could save a few dirty ones. That is a monumental problem in my books.

It's not so fundamental a disagreement as you might think. I hate — I despise — dishonest and corrupt cops, and cops who abuse their power and authority.

But many, if not most, of the allegations of brutality, as katydid pointed out, have a "rest of the story" aspect to them. The actual level of police brutality and corruption is very very low. Given the number of police officers, the number who are deliberately or intentionally brutal or corrupt is vanishingly small.

In today's climate of hate-the-police protesters and a 24-hour instant news cycle, we hear about every single allegation of brutality within seconds. For weeks on end. But we don't hear about the 100+ homicides. If every single one of those 100+homicides got the same level of media and social media coverage as the Freddie Gray death, we would be buried in it. But no, what we get is a single mention in a brief paragraph that aggregates all of those 100+ homicides into a single sentence. One sentence of text to cover 100+ homicides vs. thousands of pages of scrutiny for one alleged instance of police brutality. Plus, of course, the rioting, looting, arson, and other reactions.

I'll say it again: The law-abiding citizens of Baltimore have far, far more to fear from the criminals in their midst than they do from police.

 

[katydid23]

That is where we have a fundamental disagreement. I believe one dishonest cop is a much more alarming of an issue than 100 drug pushing gang bangers. My trust lies in the brave men and women who choose that profession . I place no trust in the gang bangers.

And then we have the problem of all the good honest passionate LEO's who have to work along side the dirty ones. Those scumbags place a dark cloud over the whole department.
Look up the story of Joe Crystal. An excellent young cop in the BPD who was climbing the ranks up to detective after only a few years ,yet when he decided to shine a light on the brutality of his colleagues he was quickly labelled a rat (actually had a dead rat placed on his car windshield). ThE BPD lost a really good cop so that they could save a few dirty ones. That is a monumental problem in my books.

If you lived in that neighborhood with a hundred drug pushing gangbangers than maybe you would not dismiss them as easily. THese are the people that make those streets so violent and frightening.

Look at the list of 100 dead local victims. Many are just regular folks on their way to school or work. Or sitting in their cars or on their stoop. And they are killed by crossfire or purposely shot over something ridiculous. These gangbangers are much more deadly and dangerous than the cops are to the residents. JMO

I think that is wholly evident now that the cops have stepped back.

 

[CoolJ]

It's not so fundamental a disagreement as you might think. I hate — I despise — dishonest and corrupt cops, and cops who abuse their power and authority.

But many, if not most, of the allegations of brutality, as katydid pointed out, have a "rest of the story" aspect to them. The actual level of police brutality and corruption is very very low. Given the number of police officers, the number who are deliberately or intentionally brutal or corrupt is vanishingly small.

In today's climate of hate-the-police protesters and a 24-hour instant news cycle, we hear about every single allegation of brutality within seconds. For weeks on end. But we don't hear about the 100+ homicides. If every single one of those 100+homicides got the same level of media and social media coverage as the Freddie Gray death, we would be buried in it. But no, what we get is a single mention in a brief paragraph that aggregates all of those 100+ homicides into a single sentence. One sentence of text to cover 100+ homicides vs. thousands of pages of scrutiny for one alleged instance of police brutality. Plus, of course, the rioting, looting, arson, and other reactions.

I'll say it again: The law-abiding citizens of Baltimore have far, far more to fear from the criminals in their midst than they do from police.

From what has been reported and settled in civil courts, I am not so sure the problem within the BPD is "vanishingly" small. The Joe Crystal case points to a culture within the BPD that is dishonest and and possibly criminal in nature. If the good cops can't even speak out without being in fear for their lives, then there is nothing "vanishingly" small about it.
Again, maybe that is a result of decades of extreme violence and gang activity akin to a war zone.
This continued counter argument to police brutality, about how much more violent the criminals are is just plain silly. Nobody disagrees with that. The criminals being more "criminal" than the cops is how it is SUPPOSED to be.

 

[CoolJ]

If you lived in that neighborhood with a hundred drug pushing gangbangers than maybe you would not dismiss them as easily. THese are the people that make those streets so violent and frightening.

Look at the list of 100 dead local victims. Many are just regular folks on their way to school or work. Or sitting in their cars or on their stoop. And they are killed by crossfire or purposely shot over something ridiculous. These gangbangers are much more deadly and dangerous than the cops are to the residents. JMO

I think that is wholly evident now that the cops have stepped back.

I don't dismiss it at all. I would love to have a thread to discuss that topic. But, while interconnected, it is a different topic. It's the same ole counter argument. When folks show concern about police brutality, what they hear in return is ... " yeah but , yeah but... Look at all the black on black violence". It is frustrating like you wouldn't imagine. AND condescending because it makes one feel as though their concerns aren't even being heard. And the cycle continues. How about, instead of saying that, someone finally says "yes, you are right, dirty cops are despicable and it's time to do something about it."