Sheila and Katherine Lyon-sisters missing since 1975 - #2
- Thread starter JusticeWillBeServed
- Start date
back in 2010 before any of the Welchs became person of interet, MDietz47 described the driver on Websleuths as
"I looked toward the driver and could see him looking into his windshield rear-view mirror. He appeared to be tall at least 6 ft or so; moderately built not muscular, heavy or thin. He appeared to be in his early-mid 30s showing some flecks of gray in his hair. His hair was dark almost black contrasting with the specks of gray hair; its was medium length for the time; wavy, styled with normal - not short sideburns and block cut at the back not tapered. I saw hes hair was combed along the sides into a sort of ducktail (for those who remember what that was) but not that extreme. "
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?81752-The-girls-were-abducted-then-what/page5
I believe a similar description was reported by newspapers relying on police reports.
In any case, if they were the Lyon sisters or not, I think everyone agrees the driver in his 30s was way to old to be an 18-year-old Lloyd.
I don't think the description was a good match for any of the older Welches - I recall something about a hooked nose -, but at least the age range was consistent. It was debated someplace here on Websleuths.
In 1975, a Manassas witness, who may or may not have been Dietz, described the man as resembling the Tape-Recorder-Man sketch, the prime suspect at the time. There are obvious questions about if the description of both the drivers and girls was not influenced by seeing them first in the news.
Tuesday, April 8, 1975
MISSING GIRLS MAY BE ALIVE
Fairfax VA, (UPI) The sighting of a car monday carrying two girls, reportedly bound and gagged, has raised hopes that two young Maryland sisters who disappeared two weeks ago may still be alive, law enforcement officials said today.
Maryland and Virginia authorities began the search for the elusive beige station wagon, a 1968 Ford with 1975 Maryland plates, early Monday, after a Manassas Virginia citizen reported seeing two blonde haired girls, both tied in the rear of the car. It was subsequently spotted by citizens in several Northern Virginia towns, but disappeared early Monday evening south of Falls Church.
The girls reportedly resembled Sheila Lyon, 13, and her 11-year-old sister, Katherine, of Kensington MD, who were last seen on March 25 in a shopping center at Wheaton MD. A massive ground, air, and water search had failed to turn up any clues to the whereabouts of the two girls.
Authorities said they were told by the Manassas citizen that the driver of the car, a white-haired man in his fifties, resembled a composite sketch last week of a man believed to have talked to the girls shortly before they disappeared. The witness said when he tried to get a closer look, the car sped off through a red light.
RichardLewis
Former Member
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2014
- Messages
- 87
- Reaction score
- 3
from a post Marshall Dietz made to Websleuths: "I told the cold-case detective that my first thought was that he had the facial features of Lee Van Cleef but, of course, the cold-case detective had no idea of who Lee Van Cleef was"
For comparison sake, a picture of younger and older RAW against a middle aged LVC. They do seem to have similar noses and pointed ears.
Falcon500
Verified Law Enforcement Detective/L.E. Procedures
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2012
- Messages
- 565
- Reaction score
- 3,897
That is an awfully detailed description of a man that Dietz saw for just seconds thirty=three years before. I am sure that he saw something but it sounds to me that it was embellished over time.
It could be (unintentionally) embellished over time, it could have been biased from the start from seeing the sisters photos and the sketch of Tape Recorder Man, or it could be accurate.
I myself am leaning to biased from the start, but in any case it's decent testimony that could establish reasonable doubt that Lloyd had the girls in a duffel bag.
I really hope the police have DNA evidence, which they haven't disclosed to the public, or they have a very difficult case because it's a no-body case and the length of time.
j123
Member
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2014
- Messages
- 175
- Reaction score
- 21
I'm think mdietz has actually addressed that and talked about why he's so confident about his memory of what he saw. There may be a post from him about it from awhile back which is worth looking up. Obviously no brain is perfect, and memories are VERY susceptible to change over time, but I do believe it's possible that witnessing what you believe to be a child kidnapping could really set someone's brain into high alert and heighten their senses enough to take some powerful mental snapshots. People have a tendency to remember exactly where and when they were during shocking events.
LLW1 was born in 1932, TTW1 was born in 1940, LLW2 was born in 1956 and DRW was born in 1962, RAW in 1945,... could be either relative.
A cold case detective does not have much time to watch TV, like the rest of us. Except maybe "The Rifleman". Great show!
Ever hear of the Jean Welch Cold Case? Daughter became a policewoman.
Sutton
New Member
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2013
- Messages
- 1,353
- Reaction score
- 62
RSBM. think I might be misreading your post.
Are you saying a 10-year-old and a 12-year-old, from a sheltered home, left the mall after looking at Easter displays, and willingly had sex with LLW?
gregjrichards
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2010
- Messages
- 12,478
- Reaction score
- 70,433
I definitely don't think this was the case. The girls were either tricked into getting into the car (family emergency kind of situation or forced into it.)
Backwoods
New Member
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2006
- Messages
- 4,666
- Reaction score
- 111
I could be mistaken, but isn't MDietz47 the person who, at one time at least, felt that the man driving the car was probably counterfeiter and serial sexual predator (and likely serial murderer) James Mitchell "Mike" Debardeleben? (Google will bring up plenty of images of him, and here's a thread about him on Websleuths: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?224445-TX-DeBARDELEBEN-James-Mitchell-quot-Mike-quot )
My GUESS is that something went wrong with the crime BEFORE Lloyd or anyone had sex; wrong from the criminal's point of view in that the crime did not go as planned and murder happened when a victim resists.
Nearly all murders and/or rapes happen without the crime of kidnapping (abduction), and Lloyd with no car or property had no resources on his own to kidnap anyone for more than a few minutes.
My GUESS is that the girls willing left the mall on their own, walked down Drumm Ave which was their normal way home, where witnesses reported seeing the girls (but not Lloyd), and Lloyd, who was following the girls at the mall either followed the girls or ran into them again by accident since it was also Lloyd's walking route.
The entire reason for photo-line ups with six, similar looking suspects, is so that witnesses, even totally honest witnesses, don't jump to conclusions and make mistakes. Seeing reports of the Llyon sisters in the news apparently lead several witnesses to (honestly) misremember seeing them, since a few of the sightings contradict each other.
gregjrichards
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2010
- Messages
- 12,478
- Reaction score
- 70,433
I just can't get over a young 18 year old guy allegedly kidnapping, raping and murdering two girls with no prior offences for sexual assault or violent crime. Normally a criminal will start with molestation, then rape and then rape and murder. I wonder why the victim whom he sexually assaulted and is currently in prison for was spared. The teenager who dismembered and killed Jessica Ridgeway was younger than LLW though so it can happen.
I don't think Lloyd was on the child molester, child rapist, serial killer path since as you noted, his victims later in life are all alive.
I think Lloyd was a child abuser, who messed up in this case and something went wrong with the crime. In crimes gone wrong, the criminal (robber/rapist) does not think he is going to murder someone at the start of the crime, but ends up in a fight or feeling threatened and ends up murdering someone.
After being confronted at Wheaton Plaza by one of the Lyon sister's friends for excessive staring, Lloyd might have been angry. We don't know what words were exchanged; the recently released search warrant affidavit is vague, but we do know that Lloyd either stopped following the girls or backed off enough not to be noticed. Even if the words were polite such as "Please stop staring at us," it would be upsetting to Lloyd who had an anger management problem. The confrontation could have been more heated such as, "Stop staring at us pervert."
If Lloyd ran into the girls again off the mall, the situation might have escalated if more words were exchanged or he was rebuffed a second time.
Because juvenile records are sealed, and Lloyd just turned 18 we don't know what if any prior problems Lloyd had with the law. But we do know from Welch family members, such as his cousin Henry Park, that they were warned to stay away from Lloyd:
"Parker said that he tried to stay away from Welch and that his family members told him: Hes trouble. Hes trouble all the way around."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...a2e68c-2a2f-11e5-a250-42bd812efc09_story.html
I am pretty sure the Washington Post and reliable newspapers would not publish Lloyd's juvenile record even if they found out second hand that he had one. I doubt Lloyds juvenile record or even most of his adult record could be used against him in court anyway.
WaynezWorld
Member
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2014
- Messages
- 114
- Reaction score
- 8
Not sure on this, I was always under the impression that juvenile records are sealed, as long as the individual has no legal problems as an adult. But as an adult, you lose that confidentiality if you commit a serious felony or if the juvenile offense was the beginning of a pattern, ie-Edmund Kemper. The procedure for record keeping may vary state to state of course.
I would be surprised if LLW had any priors for sexual assault or abduction and it hasn't been mentioned. But I think it would be fair game to expose his juvenile record.
I think it's good for society to give kids who've made mistakes a second chance, but after two convictions for child molestation and two pending murder charges, I don't think we would be harming LLW's reputation if his juvenile records were made public.
In Maryland, I have never seen juvenile records revealed and it apparently takes a court order to even see your own records.
https://www.oag.state.md.us/Courts/2005/2005_01_11.pdf
Even for adult convictions, it's pretty hard to use a defendant's prior convictions against him in court unless he lies on the stand about activities he was convicted for.
http://prosecutorsdiscretion.blogspot.com/2011/12/does-it-always-stay-in-your-past.html
It's unusual because Lloyd earned his convictions for crimes long after the Lyon sisters crime, but this might even make it harder, near impossible, to use Lloyd's criminal history against him.
IF Lloyd was the person pretending to be a security guard at Wheaton Plaza in 1975 who allegedly tried to abduct six young women on six different occasions, this MIGHT be admissible if it established a "pattern of conduct" that he 1) targeted girls in the same age range and 2) targeted girls at Wheaton Plaza in 1975. But if the person pretending to be a security guard was not Lloyd, it might help his defense by introducing other sexual predators.
This is a short summary of the limited bad behavior information that might be introduced:
"Prosecutors often argue that prior bad acts are admissible not as propensity evidence, but to establish a pattern of conduct. For example, if a bank robbery defendant has previously robbed multiple banks using the same mask, the same note, and the same weapon, the Commonwealth could introduce evidence of the prior bank robberies to prove the defendants identity and his pattern of robbing banks in an identical fashion. In deciding whether to allow the evidence to be presented to the jury, trial judges consider whether its probative value outweighs the unfair prejudice to the defendant."
From: http://www.massachusettscriminalatt...-seeks-exclude-prior-bad-acts-upcoming-trial/
siriunsun
Former Member
Out of curiosity, how do you know it was LLW's walking route? I have not seen that referenced anywhere.
When Lloyd was first identified as a person of interest police identified him was walking along the train tracks from Silver Spring to Kensington.
There is only one easy way to walk from Kensington to Wheaton Plaza (now mall) which I walk about every day, the girls usually walked, and likely Lloyd also walked, but we never confirmed his exact path; he could have gone out of his way.
From the first police conference when Lloyd was identified as a person of interest:
With a fresh set of eyes on the case, Police Chief Thomas Manger said investigators have been able to not only place Welch, a convicted child sex offender, at the mall that day, but a sketch of man released by the police at the time of the girls disappearance is a remarkable resemblance.
Until now, police had not linked Welch to the case.
"Welch has criminal convictions involving young female victims in the states of Virginia, Delaware and South Carolina, said Chief Manger.
He said Welch, who was also known as Michael Welch, was known to hitchhike around the Washington D.C. area and walked the train tracks between Kensington and Silver Spring
From : http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/246935...erson-of-interest-in-1975-disappearance-of-ly
There was much discussion, and maps and old photos on WebSleuth shortly after the press conference:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...is-Person-of-Interest&p=10387903#post10387903
Now that I think about it, just last week it was released that Lloyds latest story was that he took the bus home the day the girls went missing.
Lloyd's previous story, likely a lie or police twisting his words, was that Lloyd, his uncle, a cousin and the two girls drove home togeter.
Someone should check to see if Lloyd ever or often rode the bus. Many people in Montgomery County like me virtually never (literally once per decade) ride the bus. I will walk or ride a bike before paying for a bus and waiting for a bus.
If Lloyd never or rarely rode the bus, he might hiding his true route home for a reason.
Lloyd's previous story, likely a lie or police twisting his words, was that Lloyd, his uncle, a cousin and the two girls drove home togeter.
Someone should check to see if Lloyd ever or often rode the bus. Many people in Montgomery County like me virtually never (literally once per decade) ride the bus. I will walk or ride a bike before paying for a bus and waiting for a bus.
If Lloyd never or rarely rode the bus, he might hiding his true route home for a reason.