Identified! UK - David Lytton, South Pennines, 'Neil Dovestone', 65-75, Dec'15

[CoverMeCagney]

So he died from a lethal dose of rat poison

However, toxicology reports have now added to the mystery – by revealing he had traces of strychnine poison in his body at the time of his death. The poison, a white powder which is highly toxic, is a pesticide used to kill rodents and birds and is usually inhaled, injected or taken orally. It is illegal to buy in the UK and can be fatal in humans if swallowed or absorbed through the eyes or mouth.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...leworth-Moor-died-lethal-dose-rat-poison.html

 

[Elainera]

So he died from a lethal dose of rat poison



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...leworth-Moor-died-lethal-dose-rat-poison.html

Wow didn't see that coming! Do they think foul play now?

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Wow didn't see that coming! Do they think foul play now?

Me neither! Not sure re foul play as this man was seen, alone, going up the hill at dusk when others were coming down. More likely suicide I guess, but a HORRIBLE way to go. Lifted this from Wiki page about Strychnine:

It produces some of the most dramatic and painful symptoms of any known toxic reaction.

Ten to twenty minutes after exposure, the body's muscles begin to spasm, starting with the head and neck in the form of trismus and risus sardonicus. The spasms then spread to every muscle in the body, with nearly continuous convulsions, and get worse at the slightest stimulus. The convulsions progress, increasing in intensity and frequency until the backbone arches continually. Convulsions lead to lactic acidosis, hyperthermia and rhabdomyolysis. These are followed by postictal depression. Death comes from asphyxiation caused by paralysis of the neural pathways that control breathing, or by exhaustion from the convulsions. The subject dies within 2–3 hours after exposure.

Is this stuff readily available in the UK?

 

[wfgodot]

Previous strychnine suicides in UK, Ireland; quite rare:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1577887/Struggling-farmer-killed-himself-with-poison.html

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/strychnine-death-first-in-decades-says-pathologist-72628.html

Strychnine (and arsenic, btw) have both been taken as stimulants:

Strychnine as a tonic: http://www.human-existence.com/blog/?p=332

http://io9.gizmodo.com/why-strychnine-was-an-early-performance-enhancing-drug-512532345

England's most infamous strychnine killer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Palmer_(murderer)

(See also Dr. Thomas Neill Cream.)

 

[Elainera]

Me neither! Not sure re foul play as this man was seen, alone, going up the hill at dusk when others were coming down. More likely suicide I guess, but a HORRIBLE way to go. Lifted this from Wiki page about Strychnine:



Is this stuff readily available in the UK?

In your article above it says it is illegal to buy in the UK but maybe you can get it by other ways? Maybe he was a pharmacist or chemist, or had access somehow?

I once rescued a dog who had ingested strychnine. She was in tremendous pain, crying, and had spasm. The vet put her under anesthesia and she was on a drip for the whole night to flush it out. It worked! Next morning she woke up and wanted to go out as if nothing had happened. She was very lucky. Maybe she had not ingested enough to kill her right away, but she was in terrible pain when I found her.

Why would anybody choose this as their method to go?

 

[DanceCard]

Glad to see this thread, I've only just found it although I've been thinking about this case since the man was discovered.

I'm trying not to let the location influence my thoughts about this. Could be a red herring but on the other hand....

 

[wfgodot]

More Saddleworthiana:

http://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/england/greater-manchester/folklore/the-bill-o-jacks-murders.html

 

[DanceCard]

More Saddleworthiana:

http://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/england/greater-manchester/folklore/the-bill-o-jacks-murders.html

Thanks for that. I grew up fairly local to the area and hadn't heard that before!

 

[MelmothTheLost]

In your article above it says it is illegal to buy in the UK but maybe you can get it by other ways? Maybe he was a pharmacist or chemist, or had access somehow?

I don't think there's much use for strychnine in medicine these days, though I suppose he might have been a former pest controller. I was under the impression that strychnine was rather old fashioned as a pest poison these days, it having been replaced by warfarin-type anti-coagulant poisons in recent decades. It's possible that he might have brought it into the country from abroad (I'm thinking of the bottle with the Urdu/Arabic lable) or bought it over the internet.

 

[Elainera]

I don't think there's much use for strychnine in medicine these days, though I suppose he might have been a former pest controller. I was under the impression that strychnine was rather old fashioned as a pest poison these days, it having been replaced by warfarin-type anti-coagulant poisons in recent decades. It's possible that he might have brought it into the country from abroad (I'm thinking of the bottle with the Urdu/Arabic lable) or bought it over the internet.

Yes that seems more likely.

If he indeed knowingly took it and wasn't murdered. Maybe someone put it in his flask or water bottle or sandwich, and once he had died took the items away.

 

[dalsglen]

Oh god, it just gets worse. Not only has he died alone and lain(? That doesnt look right) unclaimed, we now find out he died in what must have been tremendously horrific way.

What in the world could cause someone to travel so far to die in such a horrible way.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

More Saddleworthiana:

http://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/england/greater-manchester/folklore/the-bill-o-jacks-murders.html

I'd never heard of that either. Another "fun" Saddleworth fact - I had a teacher who lived up there in an old house with a huge garden/land. He had been told when he bought it that there was apparently treasure buried somewhere on the property. We (6th form classes) offered to go up and dig and even went as far as plotting a grid search. Never happened though!

I hate Saddleworth. Some might say it's beautiful but I just find it bleak and desolate and of course it reminds me of the Moors murders. And it's in Lancashire

 

[DanceCard]

I'd never heard of that either. Another "fun" Saddleworth fact - I had a teacher who lived up there in an old house with a huge garden/land. He had been told when he bought it that there was apparently treasure buried somewhere on the property. We (6th form classes) offered to go up and dig and even went as far as plotting a grid search. Never happened though!

I hate Saddleworth. Some might say it's beautiful but I just find it bleak and desolate and of course it reminds me of the Moors murders. And it's in Lancashire

I was smiling to myself when I was catching up on the thread and saw where you wrote about 'going over the tops'.
I'm from the other side to you - yes Lancashire - and I think it's bleak too.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I was smiling to myself when I was catching up on the thread and saw where you wrote about 'going over the tops'.
I'm from the other side to you - yes Lancashire - and I think it's bleak too.

Boooo! lol. I've been over the tops so many times as some of my best friends are Lancastrians - Bury, Morecambe, Wigan, Rochdale. Funnily enough though, most of them left the dark side and now live in Yorkshire. Just sayin'. Hahaha!

:rose:

(They don't do white roses on here. Pah!)

 

[YidArmyRach]

In your article above it says it is illegal to buy in the UK but maybe you can get it by other ways? Maybe he was a pharmacist or chemist, or had access somehow?

I once rescued a dog who had ingested strychnine. She was in tremendous pain, crying, and had spasm. The vet put her under anesthesia and she was on a drip for the whole night to flush it out. It worked! Next morning she woke up and wanted to go out as if nothing had happened. She was very lucky. Maybe she had not ingested enough to kill her right away, but she was in terrible pain when I found her.

Why would anybody choose this as their method to go?

Self-punishment?

As there are so many other drugs that could have been used to induce a much easier death, this is a weird way to go. Especially as it appears he ensured he wouldn't be found/saved and wouldn't be able to seek help once the effects took hold.

I wonder if he did something awful at some point in his life, and felt that he had to make amends for it? Sounds mad just reading that back, but the whole case is so bizarre. It sounds like a mystery from a hundred years ago, not 2015/2016.

The newspaper said he was found lying down with his arms by his side, which makes it sound like he just lay down and died in that position. However the reality of that kind of poison, from what I've read, sounds like he'd have been thrashing about for ages before he died and would have been in absolute agony. Add to that the bleak location and the very cold temperature, he couldn't have made it any more horrific for himself. Very disturbing really.

 

[wfgodot]

If perchance he were a regular user of strychnine as a potion or stimulant (see above), he would have known his exact limits, nor would a slight but fatal overdose necessarily have caused him to flounder about.

 

[Elainera]

If perchance he were a regular user of strychnine as a potion or stimulant (see above), he would have known his exact limits, nor would a slight but fatal overdose necessarily have caused him to flounder about.

bbm

What makes you say that? Is there a 'gentle' way to poison yourself with strychnine?

 

[wfgodot]

bbm

What makes you say that? Is there a 'gentle' way to poison yourself with strychnine?

Trying to account for seemingly incongruent aspects of the death: spasms, convulsions = arms at sides, apparently in peaceful repose??

 

[Ellmau]

The strychnine definitely makes me think murder rather than suicide, because it must be such a painful death.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

The strychnine definitely makes me think murder rather than suicide, because it must be such a painful death.

But he wasn't with anyone, he was seen going up there on his own. It was getting dark, nobodu in their right mind would go up there alone at night. Maybe he was meeting someone there? But then you'd think he'd have a phone with him.

The most obvious reason is suicide, in a spot chosen for sentimental reasons. Perhaps he wasn't fully aware of the horrible death aspect, perhaps he just thought "rat poison will do it" and got some of that. But then why have money on him? Why have a return ticket?

Hmmmm. More questions than answers!