MN - Philando Castile, 32, shot by police officer, 6 July 2016 #1

[ohreally]

Some BLM leaders do promote violence. I've seen live streams where that has happened. Next time there is a heated protest I encourage you to watch live through the eyes of BLM rather than the media.

One example is of the white female pastor in Ferguson who opened her church as a safe haven for BLM. She was preaching love and unity from the pulpit in the light of day but under the cover of darkness she was pure evil. I watched live as the BLM shut down traffic and wouldn't let cars through. A young white man got out of his car and was surrounded by the group of protesters. He was saying he just needed to get home when someone sucker punched him. The man turns to run and you see the 'pastor' yell "get him, don't let him go" and then she's running behind the mob. I don't think I can link the video but it's not hard to find.

So yes, some so called leaders call for peace while encouraging violence.

I don't always word things the best. I said it was debatable because there is an on going debate on thread about it. I agree with you as I have seen the videos showing BLM leaders asking for violence. Leaders that say they represent BLM and yet I have not heard other BLM leaders call them out by name and saying that leader doesn't represent us. What I was trying to say is IF one believes (I am not one that believes it) that BLM truly believes in non violent protests then why don't they stop the protests when these violent groups come and join thier cause? Why allow violent protesters use thher peaceful protest to do thier violence? Why not find other means than protests that turn violent to get thier message across?
I also agree shutting down highways is not peaceful.

 

[drjones]

Hm.He said he was stopping the car cuz of the burglary. So whatever.

i just explained to you that he did not explicitly say that, go listen to it again.

maybe reading about pretext stops will help.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

WCCO obtained a copy of Yanez’s training summary. This year, he completed active shooter, use of force and de-escalation training — 23 hours in total.

-----------------

“It looks really bad, but you’re only getting the perspective of the person shooting the film,” she said. “That’s very important to wait for the whole perspective before we make any judgment.”

more at link http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2016/07/13/st-anthony-police-training/

If he hadn't had that training, he would have just shot him from the driver's seat of his cop car apparently...

 

[MzOpinion8d]

And my point wasn't that all my encounters with the cops were 'positive'. They weren't..I have been issued tickets. Because hey I was breaking the law...that is the point.

I think by "positive" the poster meant you didn't end up dead.

 

[Cobra Jet]

Perhaps we can get back to some good old fashion sleuthing on this case.
Based on the facts that we know and some common sense what do most people think were the likely events that occurred to turn a routine traffic stop into a death?
Since no evidence has come out so far to indicate that the victim was engaging in any serious criminal activity or that he was mentally unstable, is it safe to assume that Mr. Castile likely acted as most of us would have acted during what he would have thought was a routine traffic stop? On the other side of the coin I have not heard anything to indicate that the officer was unstable in any way.

Here is what I think may have occurred (no facts, JMO)
Because the officer thought Mr. Castile may have matched the description of a suspect he likely approached the car with much more caution then he normally does. He may have had his gun out already or at least had his hand on the gun as he approached the car. At some point during the stop he was either told about the gun or saw it. At this point he either gave Mr. Castile incorrect or vague instructions. When the officer felt that the driver was not complying with his instructions and he was a danger to him he shot the victim.

Here are some of my questions. I realize that at this time we don’t know the answers and may never know the answers.
1. What was the likely interaction between the officer and the victim prior to the shooting?
2. What were the officers likely instructions just prior to the shooting?
3. What were the victims likely actions just prior to the shooting?
4. How many commands did the officer likely give the victim before deciding that he needed to shoot him?

 

[Woodland]

I have no problem acknowledging there are bad cops. There is no profession exempt from having bad people in it. I just don't think that just because a police officer shoots someone they should be labled a bad cop. I don't believe a video after the fact is evidence of a bad cop. Once the evidence comes out I will decide if I think he is a bad cop.
From everything I have read I don't feel Castlile is a bad person. I think he is loved by many. We just don't know the facts to know if the cop, Castile or a perfect storm is at fault.

A bad shoot may not equal a consistent bad cop - but the consequences have to be there on a bad shoot. The consequences are rarely there. A bad cop will always have a bad shoot.

I am replying to post #742 - post #743 shows the training this officer had not long before this shoot. Was the training poor? Pump bullets into someone that as far we know did not have a gun in his hand? It was necessary to pump 4 or more bullets into PC? Why?

Also in post #743 - I wish 'people in charge' would stop telling me what I am seeing in a video. I am in fact getting much of a story when I see a video - maybe not all, but please stop telling me what I need to think and wait for after seeing a video of a shooting, a partial shooting or a shooting after the fact. That is not part of the solution imo.

 

[Woodland]

"But Castile DID obey the law, he DID obey the cop's instructions"

what he did and did not do is unclear at this point, all we have are statements from the officer and the girlfriend.

hopefully the dashcam can provide some useful evidence, otherwise we will most likely be left with conflicting statements and we will simply have to decide who to believe.

Did the officer or his lawyer say PC pulled a gun? Seeing the butt of gun is common place in America now. Seeing an AR-15 slung over someone's shoulder is common place. Is American LE set to shoot before asking questions and getting the answers?

This is not a first - there is a video here on another thread where an officer asked a man (happened to be black) after he exited his vehicle to produce his ID - when the person complied by reaching into his vehicle to retrieve his ID - the cop fired at him. Why did the cop have his gun drawn in the first place? Fortunately the bullet(s) did not kill him - unsure what, if any, long term health problems are present.

What were the consequences in that case - money? When schools and other programs are hurting for cash? Fwiw, a blind eye is not carrying the day anymore.

 

[Woodland]

I do not think we know that he did indeed obey the cop's instructions.

Imo, conflicting instructions will be the answer here. The officer had his gun drawn but told the occupants of the car they had a broken tail light. We have already learned the officer was checking on a possible robbery suspect but did not follow protocol on that. Will the officer be able to pull off having it both ways?

Then the officer asked for ID to be produced and a moment later is hearing and seeing at the same time that a legal gun is present. That calls for multiple bullets to be fired by the officer? Again, what was the recent training for this officer?

Suspect the local DA will not have the stomach to bring consequences to this officer - in which case the next bad shoot just may ignite a real powder keg of trouble. Imo, y'all can't help anyone in the rest of the world anymore until you can settle your substantial domestic problems.

 

[drjones]

Did the officer or his lawyer say PC pulled a gun? Seeing the butt of gun is common place in America now. Seeing an AR-15 slung over someone's shoulder is common place. Is American LE set to shoot before asking questions and getting the answers?

This is not a first - there is a video here on another thread where an officer asked a man (happened to be black) after he exited his vehicle to produce his ID - when the person complied by reaching into his vehicle to retrieve his ID - the cop fired at him. Why did the cop have his gun drawn in the first place? Fortunately the bullet(s) did not kill him - unsure what, if any, long term health problems are present.

What were the consequences in that case - money? When schools and other programs are hurting for cash? Fwiw, a blind eye is not carrying the day anymore.

The terms I have seen used are that the gun was displayed, and that the officer reacted to the presence of the gun.

"American LE" is not a single entity. But is it standard practice for american LEOs to shoot first before asking questions? Obviously not, and shootings are rare, and there are countless examples of officers showing great restraint when they would be legally justified to shoot.

Regarding the other incident, yes we talked about that very early on, bad shoots happen no doubt. Was this a bad shoot? I don't know yet.

 

[Woodland]

I am sure when the coroner/forensics are done they will know what position his arms were in when he was shot. jmo Seems that his arms were down and the shots that killed him were to his arms & body. Time will tell.

What will that prove without knowing exactly what the instructions were by the officer? Did the officer give multiple instructions in a few seconds and what time was allowed to respond to them? Get your ID and hands up in a few seconds? Chicken and egg imo.

 

[bluesneakers]

Did the officer or his lawyer say PC pulled a gun? Seeing the butt of gun is common place in America now. Seeing an AR-15 slung over someone's shoulder is common place. Is American LE set to shoot before asking questions and getting the answers?

This is not a first - there is a video here on another thread where an officer asked a man (happened to be black) after he exited his vehicle to produce his ID - when the person complied by reaching into his vehicle to retrieve his ID - the cop fired at him. Why did the cop have his gun drawn in the first place? Fortunately the bullet(s) did not kill him - unsure what, if any, long term health problems are present.

What were the consequences in that case - money? When schools and other programs are hurting for cash? Fwiw, a blind eye is not carrying the day anymore.

I think that's what happened here. In a way it reminds me of Sammy Yatim - did this officer hear or see gun and shoot even though he wasn't in any danger? Did the knowledge a gun was present eclipse all procedure and training so the situation (in his mind) turned into shoot him before he shoots you? Just speculation.

 

[Woodland]

The terms I have seen used are that the gun was displayed, and that the officer reacted to the presence of the gun.

"American LE" is not a single entity. But is it standard practice for american LEOs to shoot first before asking questions? Obviously not, and shootings are rare, and there are countless examples of officers showing great restraint when they would be legally justified to shoot.

Regarding the other incident, yes we talked about that very early on, bad shoots happen no doubt. Was this a bad shoot? I don't know yet.

How are American LE suppose to react to the presence of a gun? Y'all have guns. Parents out for a drive with the kids have guns - the kids sometimes shoot the parents from the backseat.

Pretty sure another example of a bad shoot is this case.

 

[ohreally]

Perhaps we can get back to some good old fashion sleuthing on this case.
Based on the facts that we know and some common sense what do most people think were the likely events that occurred to turn a routine traffic stop into a death?
Since no evidence has come out so far to indicate that the victim was engaging in any serious criminal activity or that he was mentally unstable, is it safe to assume that Mr. Castile likely acted as most of us would have acted during what he would have thought was a routine traffic stop? On the other side of the coin I have not heard anything to indicate that the officer was unstable in any way.

Here is what I think may have occurred (no facts, JMO)
Because the officer thought Mr. Castile may have matched the description of a suspect he likely approached the car with much more caution then he normally does. He may have had his gun out already or at least had his hand on the gun as he approached the car. At some point during the stop he was either told about the gun or saw it. At this point he either gave Mr. Castile incorrect or vague instructions. When the officer felt that the driver was not complying with his instructions and he was a danger to him he shot the victim.

Here are some of my questions. I realize that at this time we don’t know the answers and may never know the answers.
1. What was the likely interaction between the officer and the victim prior to the shooting?
2. What were the officers likely instructions just prior to the shooting?
3. What were the victims likely actions just prior to the shooting?
4. How many commands did the officer likely give the victim before deciding that he needed to shoot him?

I think it is possible (also not based on fact, but what has been in MSM) that the officer stopped Castlile under the suspicion of being involved in the robbery. He went up to the window on a highre alert. He asked Castles for his license. As Castlile was reaching for his wallet he announces 'I have a gun' to inform the officer not that he was planning on using it on the officer. The officer then tells Castile to put his hand where he can see them. In the mean time the passenger is screaming about the permit. The words of the screaming may of not even registered to the officer. The officer then shoots.
Things I have no clue on:
1. How many times did the officer tell Castlile to put his hands up before firing?
2. Was any fear the officer had reasonable? That to me is important because that is what the law is based on.
At this time is what I don't believe:
1. That Castlile intended to shoot the officer.
2. That the officer made the stop with the intent to kill any of the occupants of the car.

 

[human]

Excellent article on how policing is not working for LE either.

http://billmoyers.com/story/policing-isnt-working-cops-either/

Casebolt, the officer who responded to a call at a pool party in McKinney, Texas and proceeded to throw a young girl onto the ground and point his gun at other teenagers.

Casebolt should have been fired immediately, and his record should follow him everywhere, preventing him from ever having employment as a cop or even as a security guard.

If we look more into the history of that conflict, the story of Casebolt’s own trauma begins to emerge. The pool party was the third call that he attended to that day. His first was a suicide where he witnessed a man blow his head off in front of his family, and had to console the family. Immediately after, he was called to another attempted suicide, where he had to talk a young girl down from jumping off a ledge — also in front of her family. By the time he reached the pool party, he was an emotional wreck.

Again, that’s not to excuse his actions as an individual. But understanding that context and perspective also allows us to point our fingers at the larger culprit: a system of policing that didn’t care enough about Casebolt’s mental health that they couldn’t even give him the rest of the day off. A culture of machismo that doesn’t give space for cops like Casebolt to grieve or process what he just went through.

More more more

 

[Rocco]

I do not think we know that he did indeed obey the cop's instructions.

I think he was probably trying but he had the cop on one side of him giving him orders and his girlfriend on the other side of him blurting out information and he was in the middle with people shouting from both sides.

 

[Beyond Belief]

I think it is possible (also not based on fact, but what has been in MSM) that the officer stopped Castlile under the suspicion of being involved in the robbery. He went up to the window on a highre alert. He asked Castles for his license. As Castlile was reaching for his wallet he announces 'I have a gun' to inform the officer not that he was planning on using it on the officer. The officer then tells Castile to put his hand where he can see them. In the mean time the passenger is screaming about the permit. The words of the screaming may of not even registered to the officer. The officer then shoots.
Things I have no clue on:
1. How many times did the officer tell Castlile to put his hands up before firing?
2. Was any fear the officer had reasonable? That to me is important because that is what the law is based on.
At this time is what I don't believe:
1. That Castlile intended to shoot the officer.
2. That the officer made the stop with the intent to kill any of the occupants of the car.

Excellent, thank you for including the yells of the passenger. I'd like to know what was said that she was responding too with her yelling.

 

[SophieRose]

Did the officer or his lawyer say PC pulled a gun? Seeing the butt of gun is common place in America now. Seeing an AR-15 slung over someone's shoulder is common place. Is American LE set to shoot before asking questions and getting the answers?

This is not a first - there is a video here on another thread where an officer asked a man (happened to be black) after he exited his vehicle to produce his ID - when the person complied by reaching into his vehicle to retrieve his ID - the cop fired at him. Why did the cop have his gun drawn in the first place? Fortunately the bullet(s) did not kill him - unsure what, if any, long term health problems are present.

What were the consequences in that case - money? When schools and other programs are hurting for cash? Fwiw, a blind eye is not carrying the day anymore.

http://www.wltx.com/news/local/ex-sc-trooper-pleads-guilty-to-shooting-unarmed-man/82236043

A former South Carolina state trooper has pleaded guilty to charges related to shooting an unarmed man at a Columbia gas station in 2014, an incident that received national attention and was a flash point in an ongoing debate about the appropriate use of force by police officers.

snip

The judge in the case ordered him to be taken into custody until a pre-sentencing investigation and hearing can take place. The maximum penalty for the charge is 20 years in prison.

snip

Jones ultimately reached a $285,000 settlement with the state of South Carolina over the incident. As part of the arrangement, Jones agreed to not pursue any further lawsuits related to the shooting.

 

[scmom]

Deleted.

 

[scmom]

And Groubert needed to be fired. I remember seeing that video, and he was suspended immediately and terminated very shortly thereafter.

http://www.wistv.com/story/26577206/dps-fires-trooper-who-shot-man-during-traffic-stop

 

[Leilei]

There are threads filled with examples of citizens who were unarmed and did nothing wrong but still ended up assaulted or dead. I can't make sense of the defense in those cases but apparently yes, the list of acceptable executable offenses is ever-growing.

Especially once folks start digging into their social media accounts, arrest records, etc... apparently having traffic violations makes it okay to someone shoot you to death in your car.