Size 12-14 Bloomies "modelled"

[i_dont_chat]

I think I now understand what some posters are suggesting:-

1) That JonBenet was wearing her size 4-6 Wednesday knickers when she was murdered and that

2) The perp or stager knew that he/she had left forensics on them and so

3) The size 12/14 Wednesday knickers were removed from their package and put on JonBenet's body

Two questions remains:-

1) Were the 4-6 Wednesday knickers found?
2) What happened to the remainder of the 12/14 package of knickers?

No one knows where the Size 4/6 panties are which JonBenet was wearing when she died. Some have speculated that this pair of panties were removed from the house, along with the other objects which cannot be accounted for.

The police took the package with the remainder of the Size 12/14 panties. It is on their list of things they removed from the Ramsey home.

Excellent visual presentation, BTW, showing the difference in how these two sizes would fit a 6-year-old.

My opinion, it was the father, who went to JonBenet's room to find another pair of undies to put on JonBenet. The dad might not have known that JonBenet's underwear was kept in a drawer in the bathroom. The dad probably looked in drawer in the bedroom and found the unopened package of the larger size.

My theory is that Burke did it and the Ramsey's protected him.

 

[PagingDrDetect]

The police took the package with the remainder of the Size 12/14 panties. It is on their list of things they removed from the Ramsey home.

My opinion, it was the father, who went to JonBenet's room to find another pair of undies to put on JonBenet. The dad might not have known that JonBenet's underwear was kept in a drawer in the bathroom. The dad probably looked in drawer in the bedroom and found the unopened package of the larger size.

The size 12/14 Bloomies were not found in the house. There are many pairs of girl's or child's underwear listed in the search warrant, but none of them were the 6 remaining pairs of bloomies in the package of size 12/14. This was brought up in Patsy's interview of 2000. They said they took out a total of 15 pairs of JBR's underwear and every one of them was size 4/6. The remaining 6 pairs of size 12/14 Bloomies were mysteriously "found" by Ramsey investigators in the Ramsey's Atlanta house and turned over to Boulder DA.

Both Patsy and the housekeeper said the the Bloomies were in JBR's underwear drawer in her bathroom. Patsy claims that it was the size 12/14's but the housekeeper didn't specify what size... she just recalled seeing an unopened package of Bloomies in JBR's underwear drawer.

No Bloomie day of the week underpants in size 12/14 were found in the house. We don't know for sure if any of those in size 4/6 were found by LE because that has never been specified either in the search warrant or in the interviews.

Patsy was all over the map trying to explain the underpants in her interview. She claims she can't remember whether or not she bought a package of the Bloomies in size 4/6 for JBR or not, but she does remember she bought them in size 12/14 for her niece, Jenny, to be sent to her as part of her Christmas package.

Patsy said in that interview that she was trying to get together Christmas packages to be sent out our brought to Michigan with them on the 25th as they were leaving early in the morning for Michigan on the 26th. One of those packages was one for the niece, Jenny, who was supposed to receive the size 12/14 Bloomies as a gift.

There were several Christmas packages located in the basement wrapped in Christmas paper, some of which were in the wine cellar where JBR's body was found. In the interview with John Ramsey in 1998, Smit states that some of these Christmas packages were partially opened... not partially unwrapped... partially OPENED.

I believe that Patsy did indeed include the size 12/14 Bloomies in the Christmas package in the basement to be sent to Jenny, and that package was one of the ones Smit mentioned that was partially opened. I also believe that Patsy did indeed by a package of the Bloomies in size 4/6 for JBR, and these were the ones that the housekeeper recalled seeing in JBR's underwear drawer. There is only one person who would have known that a package of size 12/14 Bloomies was in the basement in a wrapped Christmas package to be sent to Jenny, and that's Patsy.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

The dad probably looked in drawer in the bedroom and found the unopened package of the larger size.

Supposedly this unopened package was in the drawer where JonBenet's usual size 4/6 underwear were kept, and they would have been readily available to grab - why would John bother with opening a package of unopened underwear?

 

[s_finch]

Oh, and yes, thank you Jayelles!! Very good job!! When I first read about the size 12 I knew (like you did ) right off they would be too big, but then I have raised two daughters. I ASSumed others would realize the major size difference as well. I'm glad you didn't assume

Some have said the size 12 was to go over Pull-ups or Good nites. Would you consider putting a pull up on your Tootsie model and then the size 12?? I'm thinking the size 12 is still gonna be WAY TOO BIG.

TIA

 

[leighl]

Good contribution, thanks for the post Jayelles.


However, we cannot be certain this is how the larger sized panties fit JB.


I have a daughter the same age/weight/size as JB, my daughter is just a couple of cm. taller.


Sometimes when we go to the store to purchase undies, my daughter's size 6 is sold out so we end up going to the next closest larger size to find a pair just to get a particular design print or character. There are so many cute designs and characters these days and since my daughter has to wear a uniform to school, attention to details such as her socks, hair ties, and panties are really important to her.


My little girl, again very slim & the same size/age as JB, has some 12/14 Snoopy, Barbie, PP Girls, etc. undies that don't hang off of her like the example photo, not even close.


Many, if not most, undies are very elastic and made to fit snug so that they do not show panty lines or bundle/ride up when wearing shorts, slacks, tights.

So even the larger sizes are not that much bigger than a size 6, because they are elastic they will stretch.


I don't like the idea of taking photos of my daughter in her various sized undies for a forum, not really appropriate particularly in this instance with the nature of the crime/the fact that we don't know everyone who reads this forum, so I will leave it up to you fellow websleuths to look the next time you are out shopping, there is not a huge difference in little girls' sized panties.


It is not at all weird to think that JB may have liked the panties originally intended for PR's neice or that JB may have stained/lost/misplaced her similar pair, so PR gave her the larger sized package just to appease JB in a moment of fuss/tears. These patterns and character panties can sometimes be a big deal in the life of a little kid.

Panties are different than, e.g., jeans. If you look at the actual dimensions of a particular pair of undies without stretching them, a size 12/14 may actually fit the measurements (waist size, distance between the legs, etc.) of a 6 year old. Conversly, if we were buying panties for someone size 12/14 and we knew their measurements, if we looked solely at the dimensions of the panties, without taking into account the elasticity, we might think they would not fit. Its the same thing with pantyhose. If you look at them without taking into account their elasticity, you would never think you would fit into them, or if they were made out of denim or calico, for example, it would never work to have general sizes -- almost everyone would need their pantyhose to be tailor made.

 

[PagingDrDetect]

Good contribution, thanks for the post Jayelles.


However, we cannot be certain this is how the larger sized panties fit JB.


I have a daughter the same age/weight/size as JB, my daughter is just a couple of cm. taller.


Sometimes when we go to the store to purchase undies, my daughter's size 6 is sold out so we end up going to the next closest larger size to find a pair just to get a particular design print or character. There are so many cute designs and characters these days and since my daughter has to wear a uniform to school, attention to details such as her socks, hair ties, and panties are really important to her.


My little girl, again very slim & the same size/age as JB, has some 12/14 Snoopy, Barbie, PP Girls, etc. undies that don't hang off of her like the example photo, not even close.


Many, if not most, undies are very elastic and made to fit snug so that they do not show panty lines or bundle/ride up when wearing shorts, slacks, tights.

So even the larger sizes are not that much bigger than a size 6, because they are elastic they will stretch.


I don't like the idea of taking photos of my daughter in her various sized undies for a forum, not really appropriate particularly in this instance with the nature of the crime/the fact that we don't know everyone who reads this forum, so I will leave it up to you fellow websleuths to look the next time you are out shopping, there is not a huge difference in little girls' sized panties.


It is not at all weird to think that JB may have liked the panties originally intended for PR's neice or that JB may have stained/lost/misplaced her similar pair, so PR gave her the larger sized package just to appease JB in a moment of fuss/tears. These patterns and character panties can sometimes be a big deal in the life of a little kid.

Panties are different than, e.g., jeans. If you look at the actual dimensions of a particular pair of undies without stretching them, a size 12/14 may actually fit the measurements (waist size, distance between the legs, etc.) of a 6 year old. Conversly, if we were buying panties for someone size 12/14 and we knew their measurements, if we looked solely at the dimensions of the panties, without taking into account the elasticity, we might think they would not fit. Its the same thing with pantyhose. If you look at them without taking into account their elasticity, you would never think you would fit into them, or if they were made out of denim or calico, for example, it would never work to have general sizes -- almost everyone would need their pantyhose to be tailor made.

WHAT???? :doh:

 

[sandraladeda]

WHAT???? :doh:

Hi PDD. Buy you a beer?

 

[s_finch]

Good contribution, thanks for the post Jayelles.


However, we cannot be certain this is how the larger sized panties fit JB.


I have a daughter the same age/weight/size as JB, my daughter is just a couple of cm. taller.


Sometimes when we go to the store to purchase undies, my daughter's size 6 is sold out so we end up going to the next closest larger size to find a pair just to get a particular design print or character. There are so many cute designs and characters these days and since my daughter has to wear a uniform to school, attention to details such as her socks, hair ties, and panties are really important to her.


My little girl, again very slim & the same size/age as JB, has some 12/14 Snoopy, Barbie, PP Girls, etc. undies that don't hang off of her like the example photo, not even close.


Many, if not most, undies are very elastic and made to fit snug so that they do not show panty lines or bundle/ride up when wearing shorts, slacks, tights.

So even the larger sizes are not that much bigger than a size 6, because they are elastic they will stretch.


I don't like the idea of taking photos of my daughter in her various sized undies for a forum, not really appropriate particularly in this instance with the nature of the crime/the fact that we don't know everyone who reads this forum, so I will leave it up to you fellow websleuths to look the next time you are out shopping, there is not a huge difference in little girls' sized panties.


It is not at all weird to think that JB may have liked the panties originally intended for PR's neice or that JB may have stained/lost/misplaced her similar pair, so PR gave her the larger sized package just to appease JB in a moment of fuss/tears. These patterns and character panties can sometimes be a big deal in the life of a little kid.

Panties are different than, e.g., jeans. If you look at the actual dimensions of a particular pair of undies without stretching them, a size 12/14 may actually fit the measurements (waist size, distance between the legs, etc.) of a 6 year old. Conversly, if we were buying panties for someone size 12/14 and we knew their measurements, if we looked solely at the dimensions of the panties, without taking into account the elasticity, we might think they would not fit. Its the same thing with pantyhose. If you look at them without taking into account their elasticity, you would never think you would fit into them, or if they were made out of denim or calico, for example, it would never work to have general sizes -- almost everyone would need their pantyhose to be tailor made.

True, different manufactureres differ in how their sizes fit BUT in this case, we have the exact kind of undies that JBR was wearing. And I hate to disagree, but there's no way a size 12 undie fits a kid who normally wears a size 6. No way, no how.

 

[LinasK]

Good contribution, thanks for the post Jayelles.


However, we cannot be certain this is how the larger sized panties fit JB.


I have a daughter the same age/weight/size as JB, my daughter is just a couple of cm. taller.


Sometimes when we go to the store to purchase undies, my daughter's size 6 is sold out so we end up going to the next closest larger size to find a pair just to get a particular design print or character. There are so many cute designs and characters these days and since my daughter has to wear a uniform to school, attention to details such as her socks, hair ties, and panties are really important to her.


My little girl, again very slim & the same size/age as JB, has some 12/14 Snoopy, Barbie, PP Girls, etc. undies that don't hang off of her like the example photo, not even close.


Many, if not most, undies are very elastic and made to fit snug so that they do not show panty lines or bundle/ride up when wearing shorts, slacks, tights.

So even the larger sizes are not that much bigger than a size 6, because they are elastic they will stretch.


I don't like the idea of taking photos of my daughter in her various sized undies for a forum, not really appropriate particularly in this instance with the nature of the crime/the fact that we don't know everyone who reads this forum, so I will leave it up to you fellow websleuths to look the next time you are out shopping, there is not a huge difference in little girls' sized panties.


It is not at all weird to think that JB may have liked the panties originally intended for PR's neice or that JB may have stained/lost/misplaced her similar pair, so PR gave her the larger sized package just to appease JB in a moment of fuss/tears. These patterns and character panties can sometimes be a big deal in the life of a little kid.

Panties are different than, e.g., jeans. If you look at the actual dimensions of a particular pair of undies without stretching them, a size 12/14 may actually fit the measurements (waist size, distance between the legs, etc.) of a 6 year old. Conversly, if we were buying panties for someone size 12/14 and we knew their measurements, if we looked solely at the dimensions of the panties, without taking into account the elasticity, we might think they would not fit. Its the same thing with pantyhose. If you look at them without taking into account their elasticity, you would never think you would fit into them, or if they were made out of denim or calico, for example, it would never work to have general sizes -- almost everyone would need their pantyhose to be tailor made.

The difference is that Jayelles used Bloomies brand panties on the model she made, the exact brand of panties that JB was wearing in both sizes, so yes we can infer size differences in them, and F.Y.I. I have a 5-year-old girl and I have personally seen huge differences in size just between size 4 and size 6 panties, let alone size 12's!!! There's no way I would EVER be buying her size 12's in the next year or two unless my child happened to be overweight, which she's not.

 

[sandraladeda]

It is not at all weird to think that JB may have liked the panties originally intended for PR's neice or that JB may have stained/lost/misplaced her similar pair, so PR gave her the larger sized package just to appease JB in a moment of fuss/tears.

Well, that solves the mystery of how JB came into possession of the oversize panties, even Patsy didn't know the answer to that mystery....she was all over the map with her explanations of the panties....see post #115 by koldcase at this link....

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7107&page=10&pp=12

 

[PagingDrDetect]

Hi PDD. Buy you a beer?

Make it a keg, please... just hook up an IV directly to a very large keg. I'm not even a beer drinker, but some things I now realize should never be viewed when sober.

On edit... And an ice bag for by head would be appreciated as well... that was a moment when I miscalculated my own strength. Ouch.

 

[leighl]

In response to the some of the rude posts, insults, and insinuations above, it is unfortunate when we all, at some time or another, become so short-sighted and small minded in our prejudices and opinions that we cannot allow for other discussion without belittling other opinions in order to make ourselves feel better.


Even I can admit that my personal experience may not apply to this particular situation, as one poster above pointed out, we are not talking about any panties, we are talking about a particular brand, Bloomies.


Incidentally, in my original post I thought about lining up and overlapping various pairs of undies with a tape measure just to demonstrate that there are large variances and similarities in sizing, but I assumed that most people reading here did so with the intention of finding out the truth by examing different points of view, not to bolster their low self esteem by bashing others' opinions and only supporting those ideas congruent with their own. Alas, I was wrong....:truce: .


And yes, I recognize by making this post I am stooping to the level of the people I am actually referring.:blushing: But at least I have the decency to stop here. I will not respond to any subsequent mudslinging in this or any other post by the above individuals, I did so this on this particular post because these persons have violated the WS TOS previously (both with regard to myself and others) without the moderators stepping in. Matters such as this, where people allow their egos to cloud their judgement and impede rational inquiry, are why the JBR case has not been solved as of yet.

 

[Jayelles]

Good contribution, thanks for the post Jayelles.


However, we cannot be certain this is how the larger sized panties fit JB.


I have a daughter the same age/weight/size as JB, my daughter is just a couple of cm. taller.


Sometimes when we go to the store to purchase undies, my daughter's size 6 is sold out so we end up going to the next closest larger size to find a pair just to get a particular design print or character. There are so many cute designs and characters these days and since my daughter has to wear a uniform to school, attention to details such as her socks, hair ties, and panties are really important to her.


My little girl, again very slim & the same size/age as JB, has some 12/14 Snoopy, Barbie, PP Girls, etc. undies that don't hang off of her like the example photo, not even close.


Many, if not most, undies are very elastic and made to fit snug so that they do not show panty lines or bundle/ride up when wearing shorts, slacks, tights.

So even the larger sizes are not that much bigger than a size 6, because they are elastic they will stretch.


I don't like the idea of taking photos of my daughter in her various sized undies for a forum, not really appropriate particularly in this instance with the nature of the crime/the fact that we don't know everyone who reads this forum, so I will leave it up to you fellow websleuths to look the next time you are out shopping, there is not a huge difference in little girls' sized panties.


It is not at all weird to think that JB may have liked the panties originally intended for PR's neice or that JB may have stained/lost/misplaced her similar pair, so PR gave her the larger sized package just to appease JB in a moment of fuss/tears. These patterns and character panties can sometimes be a big deal in the life of a little kid.

Panties are different than, e.g., jeans. If you look at the actual dimensions of a particular pair of undies without stretching them, a size 12/14 may actually fit the measurements (waist size, distance between the legs, etc.) of a 6 year old. Conversly, if we were buying panties for someone size 12/14 and we knew their measurements, if we looked solely at the dimensions of the panties, without taking into account the elasticity, we might think they would not fit. Its the same thing with pantyhose. If you look at them without taking into account their elasticity, you would never think you would fit into them, or if they were made out of denim or calico, for example, it would never work to have general sizes -- almost everyone would need their pantyhose to be tailor made.

Your comments are similar to comments made elsewhere. I'll repond in bullets (just for speed).

1. I used the exact same knickers as JonBenet was wearing and I used the size 4-6 and 12-14 for comparison. I like in the UK but I took the opportunity to buy the Bloomies when I was in a recent trip to NYC. It was fortuitous that The Tootsie was "ripe" (i.e. perfect size) for modelling

2. The Bloomies do not come in different styles. A poster at another forum thought I had used a high-cut leg style to make them look baggier. Bloomies knickers are a novelty item - i.e. a souvenir of Bloomingdales. They only come in one style but in different sizes - small is 4-6, medium is 8-10 and large is 12-14.

3. Another poster pointed out that two children can be the same height and weight but still be different measurements. I am aware of that but I seriously doubt there would be any significant difference. My Tootsie is actually one pound heavier than jonBenet was when she died and it's therefore possible that JonBenet was slightly larger in waist etc. However, looking at photos of my Tootsie and of Jonbenet, they both look pretty similar - well nourished but certainly not overweight.

4. It is possible that the larger Bloomies might have fitted Patsy. When I showed them to Tootsie, her first comment was "They look like yours". She found it hilariously funny because she already had a packet of size 4-6 and these were identical - only huge.

5. I have been asked if I could put a pull-up on under the knickers. I have actually been looking for pull-ups but I didn't see them in Tesco. I'll check Boots the Chemist in a neighbouring town next time I'm there. I would be embarassed buying them locally anyway and I certainly wouldn't buy them if The Tootsie was with me because she would be mortified in case anyone thought they were for her.

I have the Tootsie model (although it kind of disintegrated at the shoulder when Tootsie asked if she could please have her leotard back).

Although the model is less than artistically done, the measurements are exactly the same as Tootsies and that's the important thing.

 

[julianne]

I posted here last night but it's gone now....

 

[qtc]

I know this thread is really old, but I wanted to bring up something I just read about those size 12 bloomies.

I was always under the impression that JB was dressed in these after she was killed, for whatever reason. Now, if I understand correctly, the underwear was stained with urine on the front of the underwear, meaning she had them on while she was still alive.
Does that mean that she wore them to bed?

Also, I noticed there is a hole in the crotch area. What is that from? Testing?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 

[SecretaryGal]

I know this thread is really old, but I wanted to bring up something I just read about those size 12 bloomies.

I was always under the impression that JB was dressed in these after she was killed, for whatever reason. Now, if I understand correctly, the underwear was stained with urine on the front of the underwear, meaning she had them on while she was still alive.
Does that mean that she wore them to bed?

Also, I noticed there is a hole in the crotch area. What is that from? Testing?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

OTG, that is what it looks like.

 

[Annapurna]

I know this thread is really old, but I wanted to bring up something I just read about those size 12 bloomies.

I was always under the impression that JB was dressed in these after she was killed, for whatever reason. Now, if I understand correctly, the underwear was stained with urine on the front of the underwear, meaning she had them on while she was still alive.
Does that mean that she wore them to bed?

Also, I noticed there is a hole in the crotch area. What is that from? Testing?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

It seems more likely to me that she was redressed in the interim period between the head wound and the strangulation. Those size 12s are so huge there is no way she would have put them on herself.

I don't understand why one would believe patsy regarding this (potentially very sensitive) point but agree that she lies otherwise. She's spinning it, plain and simple. JonBenèt did not dress herself in those panties.

Yes the hole in the panties is from testing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SecretaryGal]

B

OTG, that is what it looks like.

oops I meant reply to 'qtc' not 'otg' sorry!

 

[UKGuy]

I know this thread is really old, but I wanted to bring up something I just read about those size 12 bloomies.

I was always under the impression that JB was dressed in these after she was killed, for whatever reason. Now, if I understand correctly, the underwear was stained with urine on the front of the underwear, meaning she had them on while she was still alive.
Does that mean that she wore them to bed?

Also, I noticed there is a hole in the crotch area. What is that from? Testing?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

qtc,
Excellent observation. Most people assume JonBenet never ever wore those size-12's when she was alive.

Although this is an assumption, for me, its nearly a fact, Patsy never dressed JonBenet in those size-12's.

Patsy even lied about where they were located to explain away why JonBenet was wearing them. She was contradicted by the detectives.

So obviously, to many, someone redressed JonBenet in the size-12's, after she had been assaulted.

Also, Coroner Meyer recorded she had been wiped down further corroborating the idea of staging.

If you are familiar with Kolar's theory, it will have been Burke Ramsey who dressed JonBenet in the size-12's?

.

 

[Annapurna]

Would anyone who believes she dressed herself in those very large panties please explain their reasoning to me?

I can't see any compelling reason to believe that other than it makes some people's theories more cohesive.


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