Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #16

[Innerchild]

Car in Surf Mystery Deepens (June 26 or 27 1988)Police divers searched the main Cottesloe beach on Friday (24[SUP]th[/SUP] June?) for clues to the missing Fremantle woman, Julie Cutler (22)

…It was found about 35m off the beach well away from the groyne.The car’s ignition and lights switches were on and both front doors were unlocked. The driver’s window was open and rear doors were locked.

The car was winched ashore and taken for forensic tests. Divers on Friday received a floormat thought to have come from the boot of the Fiat. It was found next to the groyne.

The entry point of the car in the water remains a mystery. There was no evidence such as scrape marks, that the car had been driven or pushed off the groyne.

To drive from the service road around the walkway to the groyne would have involved negotiating deep sand drifts that have blown across the walkway.

The officer ……. Marine Parade to the Cottesloe SLSC and boatshed. Such an entry would involve running the car off a 1 m concrete retaining wall across a narrow stretch of sand and into the surf.

Miss Cutler was last seen on the early hours of Monday morning after finishing work at the Parmelia Hilton Hotel in Perth. She was wearing a close fitting black dress. She was seen by a couple leaving the hotel about the same time...

 

[Mcfishntackle]

Hungry Jacks drive through is pretty much the only thing I do know for a fact....


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[crabstick]

PeteDavo, while I think your police recruit suspect may have been up to a few things on behalf of a few police, and got to not only keep his job he was promoted even though adverse royal commission findings on him in the Mallard affair IMO he wan't near JC.

This is the over looked evidence IMO. Took 12 years to publish in newspaper when silver fox was in charge of CIB, and in last news paper reports Katich was ruling out driving off groyne, could have entered off boat ramp but not caused the damage when this investigation was quickly buried IMO.

Why do I think when seeing the broader news tv footage of the time, it appeared the car had been driven off the cliff?
Didnt appear to be inside the groyne area. Any TV footage about showing the news clip?
Of course, the Cottesloe tea rooms as they are today werent there.
http://indiana.com.au/welcome/our-story/

The car is sitting 300 metres north the groyne.
Anyone have replica pics the bag and outfit Cutler? Black evening gown at hotel?

Police were looking for the male and female that walked out after Julie Cutler at the Parmelia staff hotel hospitality party.

The general theme of cutlery is always nearby.

https://www.missingpersons.gov.au/who-missing/wa/cutler-julie
http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/c...-of-missing-and-murdered-20161231-gtk9el.html

 

[crabstick]

The surf life saving club get their vehicles on the beach. Let the tyres down and off it would go.
I dare say there was no chain barrier and padlocks in the day.

What year was the concrete jetty and ocean pool demolished?
Anyone have pictures?

 

[Innerchild]

Why do I think when seeing the broader news tv footage of the time, it appeared the car had been driven off the cliff?
Didnt appear to be inside the groyne area. Any TV footage about showing the news clip?

Anyone have replica pics the bag and outfit Cutler? Black evening gown at hotel?

Police were looking for the male and female that walked out after Julie Cutler at the Parmelia staff hotel hospitality party.

The general theme of cutlery is always nearby.

https://www.missingpersons.gov.au/who-missing/wa/cutler-julie
http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/c...-of-missing-and-murdered-20161231-gtk9el.html

It does appear like its been driven off a cliff, but that wouldn't come close to causing the damage that occurred. I'm confident in my calculations (even if they were 20 -30% out) that it would have taken a force around three times (300%) that of being dropped of a cliff to get that damage. It could have been dropped out of an airplane (F = ma, F = 1150 x 9.8, F = 11,270 Newtons) and in comparing with the controlled experiment and it wouldn't have come close to that damage (est 30,000N). That's hard to get your head around!

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

"Closed minded and intellectually incapable"? You question my intellectual capacity because I simply question the posting of a meaningless bunch of numbers? I'm happy to play that game

Its no game and my post wasn't actually aimed at you. So I apologise for any offence.
You are quite within your right to question someone else's opinion here.
But what you consider might be a bunch of meaningless numbers, could be meaningful to other sleuths, or even meaningful to the accused.

Just because you don't believe in numerology doesn't mean its not relevant to sleuthing.

Here's my rational for encouraging discussion on possible numerology links:
1. We already know the accused likes word patterns from his use of the b- r- a- v- i- n- c- a- t- username and 3 letters from each name.
2. Connecting the two known d-sites forms a line that intersects the abduction point.
3. JR's d-site is directly south of the Perth GPO.
4. The accused liked to commit the alleged crimes on Public holidays or around significant dates.
5. Given the patterns in #1-4, the accused may enjoy playing with number patterns.


Lastly, my reference to being intellectually capable refers to the question: Is it too much of a stretch of the cerebral capacity to allow a new poster the space to explain themselves and describe the views?

 

[Mo Joe]

Was JC's flatmate male or female? Did they hear her come home?

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

...and someone else just jumped onto the Derailment_Train.

Must have been too narrowly focused to see what it was, IMO.

Its a much better view than being stuck on the never ending merry-go-round of re-hashing the same points over and over again each week!!!!

PS: The waves did it!

 

[Mo Joe]

Rule it out then because it has nothing to do with this case. The Derailment_Train's theory that it had something to do with this case was based on there being 80 km in distance between the bodies of CG and JR.

That's incorrect there is 78. 38 give or take 100 metres. So whatever number 8 means to your culture, beliefs or values it doesn't relate to the bodies of these two victims.

What are you talking about? Who mentioned bodies? The new poster with the number eight theory was talking about the dates that the women went missing. You are confused.

 

[crabstick]

It does appear like its been driven off a cliff, but that wouldn't come close to causing the damage that occurred. I'm confident in my calculations (even if they were 20 -30% out) that it would have taken a force around three times (300%) that of being dropped of a cliff to get that damage. It could have been dropped out of an airplane (F = ma, F = 1150 x 9.8, F = 11,270 Newtons) and in comparing with the controlled experiment and it wouldn't have come close to that damage (est 30,000N). That's hard to get your head around!

Cutlers car is smashed up from the winter swell.
Any beached car shows similar features accept cutlers front window down to let in the water.
Being water logged, the car becomes ten times heavier but filled with liquid that doest prevent damage.
Forensics stated ignition on when the car hit the water.

If you have been surfing, when you are being dumped, the water literally grips you and slams you into the sandbank better than any rugby player.
I have a fractured neck and broken bones from that.

 

[crabstick]

Cutler leaves a staff cutlerly party...

Oh, the irony...

 

[petedavo.au]

Maybe in her handbag that was never recovered!

Daily News Friday 1[SUP]st[/SUP] July 1988 pg 3

Missing Items Hold Key to Julie Mystery by Norm Aisbett

A missing shoulder bag and a set of clothes are adding to the mystery of vanished Fremantle woman Julie Leanne Cutler. Police can’t understand why neither item has washed up on Cottesloe beach, where her Fiat sedan was found last week.

Party
While they refuse to speculate, it does raise doubt on whether she was in the car when it was scuttled. The police say Julie, 22, was carrying both items when she left a staff party at the Parmelia Hilton Hotel about 12.30am on Monday June 20. She was last seen in the hotel’s staff carpark unlocking her vehicle. The missing items puzzle was explained by major crime quad Detective Senior Constable Ron Carey who is working on the case with Det-Sgt Vince Katich.

He said they were anxious for any information about the bag and clothes. They hope their recovery will help establish Julie’s movements. The light brown leather shoulder bag was about 30 cm long and about 22 cm deep. It had a fold over flap and contained the usual female accessories.

The clothing items were the white blouse and black skirt wore in her job at the Parmelia. These were in a white plastic bag. Julie had changed out of the work clothes at 10pm on Sunday, June 19 when she finished work in the hotel and prepared for the staff only party in the hotel nightclub..

Det. Carey said interviews with hotel staff had established Julie walked to her car with the plastic bag containing the clothes in her left hand. A senior male employee spoke to her briefly before she walked off to the passenger’s side of her vehicle to unlock it – apparently because the driver’s door could not be unlocked from the outside. He did not see her get into the car.

When the car was found in the Cottesloe surf, both front doors were unlocked, the driver’s door open and flapping in the water. All of the windows were shut except for the driver’s window.

Of course if she and the bag were caught in a rip, then they would've gone out to sea, and not washed up on the same beach, if at all. I think this is what happened to the back seat as it appears to of been wages up further along the coast as it remained buoyant, whereas the rest eventually sank. IMO. Maybe someone handled the clothing bag after it was washed up?

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[crabstick]

Its a much better view than being stuck on the never ending merry-go-round of re-hashing the same points over and over again each week!!!!

PS: The waves did it!

You mean like the opening and closing times of Burger King drive-through?

Of course if she and the bag were caught in a rip, then they would've gone out to sea, and not washed up on the same beach, if at all. I think this is what happened to the back seat as it appears to of been wages up further along the coast as it remained buoyant, whereas the rest eventually sank. IMO. Maybe someone handled the clothing bag after it was washed up

I thought it stated in the recently posted article that Cutler was not in the car according forensics?

Forensic tests showed that the ignition and headlights had been on when the car entered the water, the front driver’s side window was open, the rear doors were locked and both front doors were unlocked.

Police ruled out suicide because Ms Cutler’s body would have been washed ashore if she had driven the car into the surf.

A year later, a white Parmelia Hilton uniform blouse was handed in to police
http://www.news.com.au/news/vanishe...g/news-story/1f9da6564bf58fdfb6f6532c5e7b5d2f
12.30am on June 20, 1988

 

[petedavo.au]

PeteDavo, while I think your police recruit suspect may have been up to a few things on behalf of a few police, and got to not only keep his job he was promoted even though adverse royal commission findings on him in the Mallard affair IMO he wan't near JC.

This is the over looked evidence IMO. Took 12 years to publish in newspaper when silver fox was in charge of CIB, and in last news paper reports Katich was ruling out driving off groyne, could have entered off boat ramp but not caused the damage when this investigation was quickly buried IMO.

Source: The Sunday Times 16th July, 2000

The only likely spot where the car could be crushed and then taken to the small ramp in front of the change rooms (Indiana didn't exist then) was the old Cottesloe Quarry. But although the Quarry is only a block or so away from the beach , it would be virtually undrivable like that, so I think the car occurred by the car rolling over in the surf.

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[Mo Joe]

A woman says she saw two men struggling with a boy on the day Gerard disappeared. One fair haired and the other dark haired. Mid 30s.
abc.net.au/news/2017-01-17/gerard-ross-murder-cold-case-timeline/8187904

 

[meticulously]

PeteDavo, while I think your police recruit suspect may have been up to a few things on behalf of a few police, and got to not only keep his job he was promoted even though adverse royal commission findings on him in the Mallard affair IMO he wan't near JC.

This is the over looked evidence IMO. Took 12 years to publish in newspaper when silver fox was in charge of CIB, and in last news paper reports Katich was ruling out driving off groyne, could have entered off boat ramp but not caused the damage when this investigation was quickly buried IMO.

Source: The Sunday Times 16th July, 2000

Innerchild this copy of the photo is much better than ive ever seen before .
Why have you been holding out for so long this is amazing ?!
Will edit it for clarity
.

 

[Pandit]

The only likely spot where the car could be crushed and then taken to the small ramp in front of the change rooms (Indiana didn't exist then) was the old Cottesloe Quarry. But although the Quarry is only a block or so away from the beach , it would be virtually undrivable like that, so I think the car occurred by the car rolling over in the surf.

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I agree. Cutler's fiat hasn't gone through any kind of crusher or it would have been flattened more from the doors down. I think the pillars were weakened as it went over with just one good bump, the back window broke and blew straight out, rest of the damage was done by rocking and turning on the ocean floor.

 

[Innerchild]

The only likely spot where the car could be crushed and then taken to the small ramp in front of the change rooms (Indiana didn't exist then) was the old Cottesloe Quarry. But although the Quarry is only a block or so away from the beach , it would be virtually undrivable like that, so I think the car occurred by the car rolling over in the surf.

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Fiat was found 35 m out to sea submerged, lights and ignition on, doesn't say motor on, IMO. It would be undrivable like this and only one way it could have got to the position where it was found IMO.

Waves were minnows as you can see in the background. No rips, perhaps an inshore gutter but it wouldn't move a one ton car, that would have been heavier as it filled with water. I've posted a video (car V ocean - google it) with 4 WD with snorkel that was driven into the ocean at speed and didn't make it past the large waves in shore break that were windscreen height. In the two hours before it could be towed out there was no structural damage to car.

IMO it would be too heavy to roll over in surf and this didn't happen in the large waves with 4WD (car V ocean), but if it did the force would be 10 times less than falling off a cliff.

 

[meticulously]

Photo edit: of JC fiat car on Cottesloe beach 22nd june 1988 . Thanks to Innerchild posting picture here .
date 04-09-17

 

[Innerchild]

I agree. Cutler's fiat hasn't gone through any kind of crusher or it would have been flattened more from the doors down. I think the pillars were weakened as it went over with just one good bump, the back window broke and blew straight out, rest of the damage was done by rocking and turning on the ocean floor.

Where is your evidence for that?

In one of the control videos I analysed exactly the same age, make and model car being hit by a train around 50km/hr and dragged 800 m producing a force around twice the amount needed for JC car damage. However although the car was dramatically crushed the pillars survived intact to the roof and straight. The roof pillars were basically indestructible.