CA - 13 victims, ages 2 to 29, shackled in home by parents, Perris, 15 Jan 2018 #8

[KaaBoom]

You may be surprised how little people think about barriers. I can't count how many times I have seen screen frames damaged by people trying to break in or install air conditioners, when removing the screening would have been so simple (and cheaper to repair)!!

I would have done it the same way she did it. Cutting the screen would make less sound than popping out the aluminum frame, which may have been screwed in anyway.

 

[aThousandYearsWide]

I found this blog post to be insightful. It was written by a woman who was isolated herself by her parents and covers the issues that she thinks will be problematic for the Turpin offspring.

https://blogs.psychcentral.com/narc...stages-are-they-to-blame-for-not-speaking-up/

And this one as well -
https://blogs.psychcentral.com/narc...ns-about-them-homeschooling-and-their-future/

She makes some good points about the older children not leaving. I always got that.

OT but I enjoyed the Lord of the Rings reference [emoji1]

One thing I didn't agree with though is blaming the neighbors. Sure the more extreme sightings should have reported it, but the bystander effect is a real thing. It's psychological, each neighbor probably was thinking the same thing, if I'm seeing this they(neighbors) probably are to and also I don't want to interfere on their personal matters. People tend to look the other way. It's just like when you see a parent wack their child in a store you work at (been there, hate it). What can you really say? They could get aggressive and blame you for accusing them for being a bad parent. The situation is all over terrible.

The bystander effect happened to me before. I had neighbors that enforced weird punishments on their two kids, even publicly. Their girl didn't feed her dogs at the right time so her step-mother made her sweep at the neighborhood pool while her brother swam happily for over an hour, even though there was virtually nothing to sweep. I noticed she had strange injuries all over her legs and was alarmed, but since I was a teen I didn't know who to call or where to report it, and my mom even told me not to do anything. It really bothered me though! I think something was done about it though since not long after that she was "sent away". The step-mom said it was to a psychiatric hospital, but I never bought that. How common is it for an 8 year old to need that? I never saw any sign, she was always a calm well behaved kid.

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[KaaBoom]

I think Patti Hearst is considered the poster child. She actually joined and participated in her captors crimes after the fact.

So did Elizabeth Smart. OK it was shoplifting, not bank robbery, but the same concept. Even after she was in police custody she still refused to tell them who she was. She was still clearly hoping that she would be reunited with the kidnappers. That is classic Stockholm Syndrome. At least when Patti Hearst was arrested, she admitted who she was right there. Elizabeth Smart was still trying to play along with the charade, even after she was in police custody.

 

[KaaBoom]

Agree.

The police called for the hostages to come out first, but the four captives, protecting their abductors to the very end, refused. Enmark yelled, “No, Jan and Clark go first—you’ll gun them down if we do!” In the doorway of the vault, the convicts and hostages embraced, kissed and shook hands. As the police seized the gunmen, two female hostages cried, “Don’t hurt them—they didn’t harm us.” While Enmark was wheeled away in a stretcher, she shouted to the handcuffed Olofsson, “Clark, I will see you again.”
<Snip>
Even after Olofsson and Olsson returned to prison, the hostages made jailhouse visits to their former captors
https://www.google.com/amp/amp.history.com/news/stockholm-syndrome

ES has never defended her abductor, or visited him in jail, nor refused to testify against him, as the original Stockholm hostages did.
It's also supposed to be extremely rare.
But while Stockholm syndrome has long been featured on police hostage negotiating courses, it is rarely encountered, says Hugh McGowan, who spent 35 years with the New York Police Department.

McGowan was commanding officer and chief negotiator of the Hostage Negotiation Team, which was set up in April 1973 in the wake of a number of hostage incidents that took place in 1972 - the bank heist that inspired the film Dog Day Afternoon, an uprising that came to a violent end at Attica prison in New York and the massacre at the Munich Olympics.

"I would be hard pressed to say that it exists," he says. "Sometimes in the field of psychology people are looking for cause and effect when it isn't there.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22447726

The*FBI's*Hostage Barricade Database System shows that roughly eight percent of victims show evidence of Stockholm syndrome.[3]
<Snip>
Stockholm syndrome is considered a "contested illness", due to many law enforcement officers' doubt about the legitimacy of the condition.[4]
<Snip>
FBI Law Enforcement BulletinEdit

Within this work, writer Fuselier questions the frequency with which Stockholm syndrome actually occurs, as well as the validity of its classifications as a disease or medical condition at all.[4]
<Snip>
Before the fifth edition (DSM-5) was released, Stockholm syndrome was under consideration to be included under 'Disorders of Extreme Stress, Not Otherwise Specified'.[4]The work was updated in 2013, but Stockholm syndrome was not present.[16]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

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OK I agree that these other cases probably are not true Stockholm syndrome, and even the original case of Stockholm syndrome is probably not a real mental disorder. But I think what we are looking at is elements of Stockholm syndrome, which can explain why kidnap victims don't always utilize every chance to try and escape. The basic premise of Stockholm syndrome is that it is a condition that causes hostages to develop a psychological alliance with their captors as a survival strategy during captivity. Generally hostages do what they need to do to stay safe. Often that involves not trying to escape. Especially if they are not certain they can get away.

 

[KaaBoom]

I have no idea what to make of the drawing. But I think it was definitely made by one of the kids, most likely one of the older kids. I just can't figure out what they were trying to depict. What really concerns me though is the sad expression on the face. The face is frowning as if they are scared or sad. Any time a kid draws a face that looks sad, to me that is a BAD sign. Every time I've seen a kid try to draw a person, they've always drawn the face smiling...including the drawings I remember making when I was a kid, or drawings my friends did when they were little. The faces were always smiling or at least kind of neutral. I think because it's hard to draw people (I still can't do it even now!) and so kids will just draw whatever expression seems the most common or natural. A normal, healthy kid will usually draw smiling faces. But that drawing on the wall definitely looks sad or scared. I'm not a psychologist, but this is my gut reaction. It makes me think some truly nightmarish things were going on as far back as when the family was living in Texas.

Everything about this case is heartbreaking.

For the record, that house was sitting abandoned for sometime, before that picture was taken. There is no way to be certain that that drawing was even there, at the time they vacated the house. I'm not saying it wasn't made by the children, but there is no way of knowing for sure. For that matter, there is no way of knowing when any of that damage was done.

 

[Elley Mae]

After the Baldwins bought the property, they found feces on the house’s living room and dining room walls, walls and doors had holes in them, the bathroom floor was rotted out and the house smelled very bad. They poured gallons of bleach on the floors to kill the smell and Nellie Baldwin scrubbed the kitchen cabinets over and over.

“Oh, it was so nasty,” she said.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/01...-texas-after-daughter-tried-to-call-for-help/

Debris and beds had been taken out, but the house wasn’t cleaned. Squatters never lived in the abandoned house, Billy Baldwin said.

 

[Elley Mae]

These are the photos taken by the bank prior to Mr Baldwin and his mother purchasing the property. This house was built on a flood plain, and the roof looked to be leaking. Vents in closets are not unusual in closets high humidity is an issue. A flood would explain the dumpster full of discarded furniture, etc. Baldwin's mother said there was so much trash inside the house you could hardly walk around, that is not depicted in these pix...perhaps she was talking about the trailer...unless it had already been moved.

My kid is a realtor and she said the excessive mold would trigger the waiver Baldwin signed (also at link), but they would not show a house, even with a waiver, that had human waste on the floor or walls. You never know though...small towns might look the other way.

In one of the pix you can actually see the hole in the water damaged ceiling.

Eta: Rio Vista house

Thanks.

In the photos 18 iirc kitchen photo, looks like there is a chain attached to wall on each side of where refrigerator would be.

 

[ElizabethAnne]

Thanks.

In the photos 18 iirc kitchen photo, looks like there is a chain attached to wall on each side of where refrigerator would be.

That is extremely interesting. I tried to look at the photo but could not find it. Is there anyway to post it? Is this the house where someone was quoted that everything was chained shut and locked including the refrigerator, the toy box, etc.?

 

[Oceanaire]

Thanks.

In the photos 18 iirc kitchen photo, looks like there is a chain attached to wall on each side of where refrigerator would be.

I had looked through those pics twice and hadn't noticed it, thanks for pointing that out. Very interesting. I guess that would be a way to chain shut a refrigerator, joining the two chains with a padlock...

 

[Gae]

There's evidence of toys (baby doll stroller) in those photos. We've also been told the kids weren't allowed to have toys. Maybe they had toys in TX, but when they moved to CA, LT told the kids since they can't keep their toys picked up, they won't be getting any toys at the new place.
Someone mentioned earlier that the only toys at the house when the kids were rescued were new toys, still in boxes. Someone also mentioned maybe LT and DT bought the toys just to taunt the kids. Possible, but I suspect the toys may have been sent by DT's parents as Christmas gifts, but the kids weren't allowed to play with them because of house rules.

 

[Oceanaire]

Another family that were charged after chaining the refrigerator shut:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ains-refrigerator-kept-kids-locked-rooms.html

Where are people getting this idea from?! It's nuts.

 

[Oceanaire]

There's evidence of toys (baby doll stroller) in those photos. We've also been told the kids weren't allowed to have toys. Maybe they had toys in TX, but when they moved to CA, LT told the kids since they can't keep their toys picked up, they won't be getting any toys at the new place.
Someone mentioned earlier that the only toys at the house when the kids were rescued were new toys, still in boxes. Someone also mentioned maybe LT and DT bought the toys just to taunt the kids. Possible, but I suspect the toys may have been sent by DT's parents as Christmas gifts, but the kids weren't allowed to play with them because of house rules.

I believe it has been said that the extended family didn't have the new Perris address? So that would rule out sending gifts, I'm guessing.

 

[Jilllian]

So you think she actually believed that she was safer with the kidnappers, than with them in custody and her back with her family? Don't you think Stockholm syndrome makes a little more sense?

No, of course she didn't believe she was safer with her kidnappers. She didn't want to die, and she certainly didn't want her family to die so she didn't try to run. I think it has much more to do with fight, flight, or freeze - what we all do as a response to a serious threat. She was terrorized, and in no way was bonded to her captors.

 

[mom2tee]

I believe it has been said that the extended family didn't have the new Perris address? So that would rule out sending gifts, I'm guessing.

I have no idea about the toys but I easily found their address by googling. I would think if someone really wanted to find it, they could? Just tossing that out there. Not disagreeing at all with the craziness of it all!

 

[WestieMom]

Thanks.

In the photos 18 iirc kitchen photo, looks like there is a chain attached to wall on each side of where refrigerator would be.

Oh my goodness. I had missed that [emoji15]

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[Rocco]

I believe it has been said that the extended family didn't have the new Perris address? So that would rule out sending gifts, I'm guessing.

That was 'Elizabeth the Story Changer' who said her parents had taken multiple trips out there and when they arrived, L&D wouldn't tell them where they lived so they returned home in tears. She later back peddled and said her parents had called to ask about visiting and Louise told them not to come. I think the grandparents more than likely sent the gifts.

 

[Oceanaire]

That was 'Elizabeth the Story Changer' who said her parents had taken multiple trips out there and when they arrived, L&D wouldn't tell them where they lived so they returned home in tears. She later back peddled and said her parents had called to ask about visiting and Louise told them not to come. I think the grandparents more than likely sent the gifts.

Ah, yes, I see!

 

[ElizabethAnne]

Another family that were charged after chaining the refrigerator shut:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ains-refrigerator-kept-kids-locked-rooms.html

Where are people getting this idea from?! It's nuts.

I don't know. I heard of cases in the recent years where parents/guardians locked the food up and the kids and then claimed the children had something called Prader Willi syndrome, which is a condition where there is a malfunction in the hypothalamus that causes kids and adults to continuously eat. In terms of the Turpin's defense, who knows what they will come up to try to excuse their actions. When I look at the Turpins' situation and the kidnapping of Jaycee Dugard, who was held captive in a backyard in Antioch for 18 years, I think that Jaycee and her two children actually were not chained up continuously like what is described in the Turpin's case.

 

[sar2them1984]

Oh my goodness. I had missed that [emoji15]

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Ive got chains like this on my fridge and cooker. They are a safety precaution and used to hold the appliance against the wall so it doesnt topple

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[diamondsonskidrow]

I like the Fantasmic Magical detachment disorder. Or maybe Mickey Mouse Syndrome. LOL.

I'm sure there is nothing in the DSM that would cover that, but sometimes I think there should be. Especially when I see some YouTube Disney vloggers, who are 40-something year old men, and some women too, going to Disneyland every single day to film a new video there. Something just seems a little off with them. But if they can make a living doing that, more power to them, I guess.

If we're focusing on the one-main-obsessive-interest aspect, the closest thing, DSM-wise, would be Asperger's/high-functioning autism. (Yeah I know Asperger's is no longer technically a diagnosis, but many HFA people continue to use the term for ease & clarity.) But what a lot of people don't realize, is that hyperfocus on one interest or category of interests can also be a huge part of ADHD, anxiety disorders & other developmental disorders .. and there's a point where a person may have just a light blend of all these things w/o technically meeting "diagnostic criteria" for one or more. Like, it may not be "bad" enough to constitute an "illness." Oftentimes we consider such people just a bit eccentric, a bit "odd." It may or may not be truly pathological.

I say if they are super into Disney, and they just happened to find a mate who is also into Disney, good for them. Who am I to judge!

Ultimately it comes down to whether a person's interest/obsession is interfering w/ their life & relationships. If it's not, we call it "just a hobby," or we say "that person is just a nerd." Like those people who are super into anime and go to ComiCon and dress up (I think it is called cosplay?) .. or people who do Renaissance faires, or the many many men in the US who are crazy into Star Wars. Are every single one of these people "on the spectrum"? I doubt it.

This is a sore subject for me personally so I'm sorry to go O/T, just wanted to throw that out there.