Gun Control Debate #3

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Violent offenders, fine, who wants a violent offender being armed? But when a non-violent offender pays their debt, they should get their rights back. You can get a low level felony and many times you don't even do time. A local LEOs wife got a low level felony, (non violent), from embezzling from her workplace. If she does her time, and pays her debt to society, then she should get her rights back. She shouldn't be treated as a second class citizen for the rest of her life.

DUIs get their Ls back. They're far more dangerous than the embezzler up town.

(Somewhat O/T): Hey there rsd.....not to get too far off our gun debate but yet sticking with the topic of felonies and guns, I take pause with your assertion that this embezzling woman-wife of an LEO should get her gun rights back.
I say no.
She committed a serious crime (does she have to pay back the $$$ to the person she embezzled from—I truly don’t know and I don’t know how victimized they felt or if they lost their business because of her actions?). She committed a serious unlawful crime. Every time she took monies it was wrong and she knew it....and it makes one wonder if there’s a mental issue going on like Anti-Social Personality Disorder? There’s a distinct legal reason why she was charged a felony for embezzling and not charged with simple theft or a misdemeanor.

Past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior. For this reason, employers in her future will be hard-pressed to give her a job anywhere near a cash register or keeping the books. Additionally, it is **possible** that she has a past criminal record & similar reckless behavior history that may be found with a little digging. Does she have either a drug or gambling problem? There’s a need of some sort as to why she was embezzling which seems justifiable **only to her**. She knew it was wrong but she did it anyway & disregarded the law. She likely embarrassed her LEO husband & family too. In general, common sentiment is that it’s likely that a criminal has gotten away with crimes before they were ever caught, unless you’re unlucky.

The point being is this: we need to get guns off the streets from criminals. The jumping point is **felons**. They lose their rights to own a gun. They have taken actions that are clearly unlawful. They are determined to have utilized significantly bad judgement. They have imposed a risk to law-abiding society.

Preventing felons from legally owning guns is current law and is correct, IMO.. Serious and long term jail sentences for crimes committed by felons with (illegal) guns needs to be more strictly enforced.

All moo
 
I don't know that taxes are the answer. Something equivalent to a 'sin tax' would unfairly punish law abiding gun owners. A lot of people rely on hunting to feed their families and many of those aren't living off the government. Why should they be taxed extra.

imo

People who need to hunt to feed their families would not need high impact ammo. Don't get confused by the name "sin tax" it is used for many items.
 
I find proposals for taxing guns and or ammunition at a extremely high rate to lessen the numbers of them troubling.

That's a regressive tax. One that effects the poor more than the rich. Like sales tax.




Poor people should have the same access to firearms and ammunition that rich people do since it's a Constitutional right. JMO

Poor people are not the ones buying AR 15 weapons, are they???? If you are trying to make me feel bad about taxing poor people when they buy guns and ammo, its not working. Poor people need lower taxes on food, housing and medical supplies.
 
People who need to hunt to feed their families would not need high impact ammo. Don't get confused by the name "sin tax" it is used for many items.

What do you consider high impact ammo?
 
What do you consider high impact ammo?

Ammo that blows up a body when it hits, like the type used at Parkland. Did you happen to read the article written by the Dr describing what it did to the bodies when it hit?
 
Ammo that blows up a body when it hits, like the type used at Parkland. Did you happen to read the article written by the Dr describing what it did to the bodies when it hit?

I did read his article and saw the video. It’s misleading. Tell me, what is it about that ammo that makes it different from other?
 
I did read his article and saw the video. It’s misleading. Tell me, what is it about that ammo that makes it different from other?

Well it sounds like you know more than the Dr who wrote the article and probably more about AR15 ammo than I do. I may not be the best person to debate the ammo issue with as I do not have an AR. I suggested a tax on ammo and guns as one measure to keep them out of the hands of school shooters but obviously you know better. Carry on............
 
I did read his article and saw the video. It’s misleading. Tell me, what is it about that ammo that makes it different from other?

Maybe this will help.

A bullet with more energy can do more damage. Its total kinetic energy is equal to one-half the mass of the bullet times its velocity squared. The bullet from a handgun is—as absurd as it may sound—slow compared to that from an AR-15. It can be stopped by the thick bone of the upper leg. It might pass through the body, only to become lodged in skin, which is surprisingly elastic.

The bullet from an AR-15 does an entirely different kind of violence to the human body. It’s relatively small, but it leaves the muzzle at three times the speed of a handgun bullet. It has so much energy that it can disintegrate three inches of leg bone. “It would just turn it to dust,” says Donald Jenkins, a trauma surgeon at University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio. If it hits the liver, “the liver looks like a jello mold that’s been dropped on the floor.” And the exit wound can be a nasty, jagged hole the size of an orange.

https://www.wired.com/2016/06/ar-15-can-human-body/
 
Poor people are not the ones buying AR 15 weapons, are they???? If you are trying to make me feel bad about taxing poor people when they buy guns and ammo, its not working. Poor people need lower taxes on food, housing and medical supplies.

People living on low incomes can't even buy groceries without getting everyone's approval.
 
So is the argument now that we need to ban ammo that is over a certain feet per second? A speed limit on billets? I don’t mean to be argumentative, but the doctor blamed the AR when what he really seems to be referring to is a function of the ammo. Do I need to get rid of my bolt action .223 rifle now?

I was simply trying to explain the difference to you since you seemed confused about the earlier links.

I've read nothing about ammo being banned based on feet per second, or a ban on bolt action rifles. :dunno:
 
Let's get the CDC back researching gun violence, then most of our conversations can be filled with data in addition to strong opinions. Maybe this is something all on both sides can agree upon.

This from the originator of the Dickie amendment.

WASHINGTON — Looking back, nearly 20 years later, Jay Dickey is apologetic.

He is gone from Congress, giving him space to reflect on his namesake amendment that, to this day, continues to define the rigid politics of gun policy. When he helped pass a restriction of federal funding for gun violence research in 1996, the goal wasn’t to be so suffocating, he insisted. But the measure was just that, dampening federal research for years and discouraging researchers from entering the field.

Now, as mass shootings pile up, including last week’s killing of nine at a community college in Oregon, Dickey admitted to carrying a sense of responsibility for progress not made.

“I wish we had started the proper research and kept it going all this time,” Dickey, an Arkansas Republican, told the Huffington Post in an interview. “I have regrets.”

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...esearch-amendment_us_561333d7e4b022a4ce5f45bf

And this from the Rand Corp. (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...studies-gun-policies-violent-crime/383083002/) ....

"The RAND Corp., an influential think tank, created a research initiative called Gun Policy in America to provide a factual basis for the debate about gun policies to determine which work and which don’t.

But in reviewing available research, RAND found a lack of studies that documented laws reducing violence rather than just coinciding with the results. A review of thousands of studies yielded 62 with causal results about gun policies, only two-thirds of them in the last 15 years.

The reason: Federal funding for gun studies largely dried up 20 years ago. Annual spending bills in Congress since 1996 say no funding “at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.”

The shooting deaths of 17 people at a Florida high school on Feb. 14 rekindled the nationwide conversation about gun policies. President Trump, lawmakers in Congress and Florida Gov. Rick Scott and his state Legislature are each grappling over whether more restrictive laws are needed."

I get that it "seems" that "gun violence" should be a public health matter for government funded health organizations to study. Would you agree that engagement in criminal behavior, and mental health issues that lead to violence are public health matters? "Gun violence" is such an overly broad term that drawing specific conclusions really isn't possible when only "correlated" with gun ownership. Gun violence occurs both in defensive postures, and aggressive postures, as well as accidental, and suicidal. All of those categories have to be broken out into appropriately constructed studies, rather than focusing on the "tool" as the "cause".

Stripping funding from the CDC for overly broad and poorly conceived/ constructed studies of “gun violence” IMO is a good thing. Nothing at all prevents OTHER privately funded groups or institutions from studying CRIME, or “gun control”, or “gun violence”. The problem with “gun violence” studies is that the CDC was straying into “studying” gun OWNERS, and drawing conclusions that were, at best, correlation, and then making LEAPS of statistically massaged logic into promoting those insufficiently supported correlations as CAUSATION. That is using propagandized and manipulated statistics to make political inferences under the guise of “science”.

No matter which political ideology currently holds power, or is occupying the White House, we cannot allow, encourage, or promote our publicly funded governmental organizations to conduct research to further a specific political ideology, as a means to incite rash policy changes. (Such as "guns are bad" or "gun owners are dangerous".) That strays dangerously into puppeteering qualities of banana republics, as well as arguably being pseudo science. (Like: "Some gun owners are under the sign of sagittarius, and guns are used in suicides and crimes, therefore sagitarrians cause suicides and gun crimes.")

Anyone can do a study on whatever they like. We put the brakes on governmental funding to private pharmaceutical companies that manipulated and massaged their scientific studies to ensure their drugs always performed positively in studies, and these same pharm companies actively avoided, or abandoned, or ignored, any data that was not encouraging for their products. That didn’t mean “no one” could do studies on those drugs, but it did mean that we would not use tax dollars to support thinly veiled “marketing studies” on every new drug pharmaceutical companies developed.

Similarly, research on “guns” has devolved into research on gun owners as the source problem. The CDC doesn’t study stabbings by attempting to quantify and correlate knife ownership as the cause. The CDC doesn’t study DUI deaths by correlating car ownership as the cause.

It a chicken and egg argument. Those with anti gun ideologies believe the root cause of all gun deaths is the TOOL, the gun. Gun rights ideologies believe the gun is a tool, and that gun deaths have many CAUSES that should be addressed. Flawed studies start with a CONCLUSION (not just an observation), and work backwards to construct their study to illuminate what they have already determined.

A CDC study before the Dickey amendment speciously concluded that gun OWNERS were the “problem”. That study has been cited by politicians and commenters over and over and over—without even slightly conceding that the study itself may not have any supporting evidence in the literature, may have been poorly designed, drew inappropriate causation conclusions, or may have had significant bias. That is a huge issue, because gun ownership is lawful, and is not simply a privilege—but a right protected within the constitution. Propagandized, weakly designed, weakly supported studies should not be funded by public dollars, or used to promote political change.

The “public health” issue that needs serious and longitudinal study is the antisocial actions of people who commit crimes, and the problems of those with mental health issues who commit crimes. That is where the CDC and NIH should be concentrating their research efforts. Root causes, and not tools.

Private groups, or private individuals, with an activist agenda, like the SPLC or the NRA, are free to conduct any research they want.

There are dozens/ hundreds of commentaries on the Dickey amendment, both for and against. Here is one that is sort of balanced:

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2018/02/gun-violence-public-health/553430/
 
People who need to hunt to feed their families would not need high impact ammo. Don't get confused by the name "sin tax" it is used for many items.

I know exactly what a sin tax is and I supplied a link for others that might not know. No confusion here!

Also, you said to tax the "hell out of ammo" afaik you didn't specify what kind.
 
So is the argument now that we need to ban ammo that is over a certain feet per second? A speed limit on billets? I don’t mean to be argumentative, but the doctor blamed the AR when what he really seems to be referring to is a function of the ammo. Do I need to get rid of my bolt action .223 rifle now?

The fact that you used the word "ban" when that was not mentioned by the posters shows me that you are being argumentative.
 

That doesn’t help. I’ve tried to explain this several times. I’ll try again. A bullet fired from an AR-15 is absolutely no different than a bullet fired from any other kind of rifle. In fact with it being a very small caliber (.223) it’s actually going to do less damage than a typical deer rifle. Most rifle cartridges are going to be more powerful than handgun cartridges, simply because they’re bigger and the velocity of the bullet is therefore much more than a handgun would be.
 
Poor people are not the ones buying AR 15 weapons, are they???? If you are trying to make me feel bad about taxing poor people when they buy guns and ammo, its not working. Poor people need lower taxes on food, housing and medical supplies.

Poor people buy ammo to hunt for food for their families.
 
I was simply trying to explain the difference to you since you seemed confused about the earlier links.

I've read nothing about ammo being banned based on feet per second, or a ban on bolt action rifles. :dunno:


But that’s exactly what some people here are suggesting by saying that an AR-15 is way more dangerous than any other gun just because of the damage the bullet does to a person’s body. A bolt action rifle that uses the same exact 223 Remington cartridge will do the exact same damage as an AR-15. There’s nothing special about an AR-15 other than the high rate of fire.
 
Poor people buy ammo to hunt for food for their families.

Well as much as I would love to know the statistics on poor people hunting food for their families, I can see this is another topic with many closed minded posters. I guess if it was one of their family members shot in a school shooting they may be more interested in finding ways to keep military grade guns and ammo out of the hands of bad guys.
 
But that’s exactly what some people here are suggesting by saying that an AR-15 is way more dangerous than any other gun just because of the damage the bullet does to a person’s body. A bolt action rifle that uses the same exact 223 Remington cartridge will do the exact same damage as an AR-15. There’s nothing special about an AR-15 other than the high rate of fire.

I haven't seen anyone here suggest it. Sorry.
 
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