Rebecca Zahau Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion #3

[NotAtAll]

I recall from what was shown in court that her feet would have been approx 20 inches off the ground from where the rope length measurements were verified. I remember thinking as this was explained that it was very lucky she didn’t hit the ground, when it was shown.

This fact also wasn’t lost on the jury IMO.

When we all looked at the rope over the edge of the balcony on the picture on the screen in court, and heard AS testimony, it just didn’t seem to ‘fit’, if that makes sense...with to what AS was saying he did.

It seemed clear from the height where the rope showed RZ was hanging AS could quite easily have reached to cut her down. Also, the was it before or after the 911 questioning, AS said words to the effect of , ‘...well I must have cut her down after I called as it sounds like that’s what I’m doing...’ it was so vague...

The table also looked very unstable, and AS said he got down holding RZ without any difficulty at all. ( I stood on my table at home which is the same height after this testimony to see what it’s like...there’s absolutely no way I could get down by jumping, on my own let alone with a dead weight) ( you guys should try this! It gives you perspective)

Also, Mr Greer kept stopping the tape after each section of the call, especially when there was a lot of ‘huffing and puffing’ and he said ‘what are you doing here?’ AS said, ‘ ...sounds like cutting her down ( there was lots of heavy breathing)

After several similar questions Mr G asked him to demonstate how he was holding AZ, and cut her down. AS did so, and had one arm around her imaginary body, and one in the air with the imaginary knife. Mr Greer then said, so where’s the phone? How did you do all that while holding the phone?

Everyone sort of went...oh yeah! Where is the phone!

AS then replied ....maybe it was in the grass, maybe I put it down..

Greer- But we could hear you breathing, it sounded as if was very close to your face...( it was VERY obviously close to his face from the sound IMO)

AS’ ..I don’t recall where it was...probably I put it on the grass... ‘ was the reply.

I’m paraphrazing here, from my best recollection, and this is my opinion only, but the general feeling for me was that it was another thing in the proceedings that just ‘didn’t add up’ , and I believe for the jury members too.

Mr Greer really needs to remind the jurors of these stand out moments in his summing up and closing argument, like revisiting the time there was the ‘gasp’ in the courtroom when the detective said she didn’t fingerprint RZs phone....

Thanks Lezah, as always, for providing this feedback. It really gives me a much clearer perspective because the whole "hanging" situation (among others) just didn't make sense to me, as AS explained it.

First of all, is there anyone, other than AS who has stated or testified to the fact that they actually saw RZ hanging from the balcony at Speckels Mansion? I could be wrong, but I don't believe there is. That detail has never fared well with me because the media has always reported that RZ was found hanged at her boyfriend's mansion.. and the only person, to my knowledge that ever stated he saw her actually hanging was AS. And after watching his polygraph and watching him testify in this trial, let's just say his credibility is nil with me right about now. By the time first responders and/or LE officers arrived at the mansion, I believe AS stated he had already cut RZ down, (whether he did that before he called 911 or after -well, the jury's still out on that one - pun intended). But to my knowledge, no one other than AS ever saw RZ physically hanging from the balcony. Yet, SDSO declared she committed suicide. Ok.

Second, I am of the opinion that RZ was never hanging from the balcony at all. Let me clarify. I don't believe she actually jumped over the balcony wall. No suicide here. And I believe any hanging scenario would've been staged. My opinion of this is based on testimony given by experts such as Dr. Cyril Wecht and AS's own version of events, especially when he talks of cutting RZ down, while standing on the infamous 3-legged table. Oh yea, while holding the phone, talking to the 911 operator. Ok.

I wholeheartedly agree with you, Lezah, that Mr. Greer needs to remind the jury in his closing arguments that this is just one aspect of AS's version of events that just don't add up. Because there certainly are many that just don't add up. All of you here have done a fine job in listing them.

I want to share a tiny bit of info. I've lived in Phoenix for over 19 years. At one point about 10 minutes from Paradise Valley. My family and I have vacationed in San Diego a few times. We last went to Coronado Beach about 3 years ago. I don't know anyone at all involved in this case, but I have been hearing about the case a lot over the years, living in Phoenix. I'm only sharing that bit of background info because I read a previous post in which someone said they thought a lot of posters here were emotionally invested, etc. I'm not emotionally invested in this case at all, per se. However, I believe right is right and wrong is wrong. And after watching the portions of this trial that have been live streamed, after listening to podcasts, after reading articles regarding the case ad nauseam, and by a preponderance of the evidence that I have been exposed to, the only logical conclusion I can come to is AS is responsible for the death of, (i.e, murdered) RZ.

My own opinion.

 

[Jessica2012]

They relied on the photo to support their case, which it doesn't even do. Exactly the opposite.

The detectives saw the balcony with their own eyes. They had no doubt it was where Rebecca went over the railing. The picture clearly shows that, IMO.

 

[elfie]

Looks like RZ toe-danced on the railing as well as the balcony, eh?

Absurd.

Imo, the murderer hoisted her off the ground with the noose rope. He was going for a dead drop hanging injury, but since he decided to reverse-engineer the hanging, he only managed to inflict a relatively minor neck injury (I'm not talking about the strangulation injury here) compared to the injury her neck would receive in a 9'2" dead drop of 105 lbs.

Which under normal circumstances would have been enough to break her neck, but from the AR:

"There are no fractures of the cervical vertebrae and no epidural, subdural or subarachnoid hemorrhage of the spinal cord. There is no spinal softening. The atlanto-occipital junction is in tact.”

 

[Imp]

I'm sure that this:
Adam polygraph: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppRDQ7yfymg&feature=youtu.be
And this:
Adam 911 call: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyGs0d2d-ck&feature=youtu.be

Will help anyone who doubts Adam implicates himself. He doesn't even know if he made the 911 call first or if he cut the body down while on the phone with 911. He checks off every single red flag a police department looks for in the 911 call to indicate caller is suspect. He MOVED the tight rope around the wrist because he otherwise could not get his fingers under to take a pulse. And, remember that the defenses own witness stated that tight rope means homicide.

Absolutely correct, V. Also, if you look at Rebecca's body on the grass, lying on her side, with her legs fixed and bent and her hands bound behind her back, and try to imagine AS, or anyone, checking for a pulse or attempting CPR, nothing fits. How could a first responder do anything with her while she was lying on her side, with her arms and legs preventing an easy roll onto her back, which is necessary for effective CPR? There's virtually no evidence (including DNA or fingerprints) or the appearance he even touched her, never mind checked her condition or attempted CPR.

If I'm a juror, I'm thinking he either didn't touch her at all to try to see if she was alive or revive her, or he barely touched her in an ineffective manner, and I'm wondering why Tugboat Captain Adam was so incredibly unconcerned or inept at rendering aid to "Becca."

 

[screecher]

I am not at all sure I agree with all of this. I have mixed feelings about NR being there, doubt she saw RZ with Adam, doubt RZ wanted to connect with Adam at any point that night, etc. but I do believe it's likely JS lied about the voicemail. I don't know if phone records even substantiated him having called her at that time. Anyone could have left a voicemail saying anything and I believe JS said whatever he had to in order to help the case for suicide, since suicide is the finding he wanted. I don't really have a theory as to which of the few people who might have called, actually did call, or what they might have said. But, whatever that voicemail said did not help the suicide case, at minimum, or it directly implicated someone, at worst. That's why it disappeared, imo. MOO

Exactly

 

[MyBelle]

In furtherance of your comments about the considerable and inexplicable effort RZ would have had to undertake to take her own life, I am reminded of what I read recently.

Namely, at the time of her death two reports about Max may have significance to the manner of death of Rebecca...even if neither seems true given what we've learned since.

A. There was a report that a doctor had informed the grieving parents that little Max may have been suffocated.
B. Another report suggested he could have either fallen over -- or been pushed over -- the second floor railing.

So if someone wants a revenge killing he stuffs part of a shirt in the victims mouth and somehow hangs her from a second floor railing.

You can't make this stuff up.

I agree, you can't make this stuff up. In A. you say: "There was a report that a doctor had informed the grieving parents that little Max may have been suffocated" and B: "Another report suggested he could have either fallen over--or been pushed over--the second floor railing."

Both A.& B. are crimes of attempted murder of a 6-year-old child. As a mandated reporter, a doctor is obligated to inform law enforcement immediately.

A suspect--particularly a guilty one--might consider a better alternative to prison is suicide.

 

[elfie]

The detectives saw the balcony with their own eyes. They had no doubt it was where Rebecca went over the railing. The picture clearly shows that, IMO.

The image clearly shows that there was no possible way that she went over on her own accord. An absolute minimum of 10" of dust would have been cleared completely had she gone over. At most it shows 3" of complete clearing.

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/cache.php?img=http://i52.tinypic.com/2z7eer9.jpg

 

[Betty P]

And we're now looking at the same balcony, in the photo they took. We're not seeing anything to indicate she pushed herself over while gagged and bound hand and foot.

 

[Verboten]

Thanks Lezah, as always, for providing this feedback. It really gives me a much clearer perspective because the whole "hanging" situation (among others) just didn't make sense to me, as AS explained it.

First of all, is there anyone, other than AS who has stated or testified to the fact that they actually saw RZ hanging from the balcony at Speckels Mansion? I could be wrong, but I don't believe there is. That detail has never fared well with me because the media has always reported that RZ was found hanged at her boyfriend's mansion.. and the only person, to my knowledge that ever stated he saw her actually hanging was AS. And after watching his polygraph and watching him testify in this trial, let's just say his credibility is nil with me right about now. By the time first responders and/or LE officers arrived at the mansion, I believe AS stated he had already cut RZ down, (whether he did that before he called 911 or after -well, the jury's still out on that one - pun intended). But to my knowledge, no one other than AS ever saw RZ physically hanging from the balcony. Yet, SDSO declared she committed suicide. Ok.

Second, I am of the opinion that RZ was never hanging from the balcony at all. Let me clarify. I don't believe she actually jumped over the balcony wall. No suicide here. And I believe any hanging scenario would've been staged. My opinion of this is based on testimony given by experts such as Dr. Cyril Wecht and AS's own version of events, especially when he talks of cutting RZ down, while standing on the infamous 3-legged table. Oh yea, while holding the phone, talking to the 911 operator. Ok.

I wholeheartedly agree with you, Lezah, that Mr. Greer needs to remind the jury in his closing arguments that this is just one aspect of AS's version of events that just don't add up. Because there certainly are many that just don't add up. All of you here have done a fine job in listing them.

I want to share a tiny bit of info. I've lived in Phoenix for over 19 years. At one point about 10 minutes from Paradise Valley. My family and I have vacationed in San Diego a few times. We last went to Coronado Beach about 3 years ago. I don't know anyone at all involved in this case, but I have been hearing about the case a lot over the years, living in Phoenix. I'm only sharing that bit of background info because I read a previous post in which someone said they thought a lot of posters here were emotionally invested, etc. I'm not emotionally invested in this case at all, per se. However, I believe right is right and wrong is wrong. And after watching the portions of this trial that have been live streamed, after listening to podcasts, after reading articles regarding the case ad nauseam, and by a preponderance of the evidence that I have been exposed to, the only logical conclusion I can come to is AS is responsible for the death of, (i.e, murdered) RZ.

My own opinion.

Wonderful post. BBM -- regarding emotion, you have absolutely nailed it. When you take a logical look at everything currently known, it's very clear that there is no suicide and AS is responsible for this death. The only emotion that really comes into it is that we are emotional/passionate about not letting a miscarriage of justice stand. And this has been an egregious miscarriage of justice from the start.

 

[Imp]

The image clearly shows that there was no possible way that she went over on her own accord. An absolute minimum of 10" of dust would have been cleared completely had she gone over. At most it shows 3" of complete clearing.

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/cache.php?img=http://i52.tinypic.com/2z7eer9.jpg

Yes, and not even a 3-inch wide mark, but 3 inches total counting the rub spots. There's no way RZ's body rubbed against the top of that balcony as she (supposedly) pushed herself over it.

 

[screecher]

Again, the physical evidence is Adam admitting to opportunity, motive. Means he denies but really? Who believes a tugboat CAPTAIN does not know how to tie nautical knots that duplicate those on Rebecca's bindings and noose?

LOL

Sorry kid. He's a goner in this trial.

Yea, never mind he 'confessed' to masturbating.

Why in the world would one do that?

Hmmmmm....

 

[MyBelle]

Which under normal circumstances would have been enough to break her neck, but from the AR:

"There are no fractures of the cervical vertebrae and no epidural, subdural or subarachnoid hemorrhage of the spinal chord. There is no spinal softening. The atlanto-occipital junction is in tact.”

According the A.R., Dr. Wecht and Dr. Davis, RZ's hyoid bone was fractured. The hyoid bone is in the neck.

 

[Betty P]

I agree, you can't make this stuff up. In A. you say: "There was a report that a doctor had informed the grieving parents that little Max may have been suffocated" and B: "Another report suggested he could have either fallen over--or been pushed over--the second floor railing."

Both A.& B. are crimes of attempted murder of a 6-year-old child. As a mandated reporter, a doctor is obligated to inform law enforcement immediately.

A suspect--particularly a guilty one--might consider a better alternative to prison is suicide.

Do you guys have links for those? On number one you facts and timing are way off. Number two doesn't exist.

 

[Betty P]

But it's in the throat, not part of the vertebrae . . In long drop hanging the vertebrae is usually fractured.or completely broken or detached .

 

[nanwv]

Speaking of Tugboat Captain AS, remind me again how we know he is, in fact, a real Tugboat Captain. Is this another JS said so thing? Nothing on the scrubbed internet. What's the name of his Tugboat? How long has he been a Tugboat Captain? After his college education, did he go to Tugboat School? Thanks in advance for providing documentation-I honestly do not recall seeing anything other than a mention, ever.

 

[Tiffanie]

I'm curious. If locals felt that way about Gore, why didn't they vote him out of office the last election?

MyBelle: Unfortunately he didn't have any opponents run against him in 2014. As a local, crossing my fingers he will be voted out on June 5, 2018. Enough of the corruption within SDSO!!!

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...molens/sd-me-smolens-gore-20180221-story.html

 

[screecher]

General observation on this thread right now. I see a number of what I think are red herrings being constantly tossed into the conversation. Let's stay on track as to the valid and recent court testimony and focus on that information. God knows, there is enough very compelling testimony that has come out with shocks and explosions indicative IMO of the defense totally in breakdown.

Red herrings indeedy. imo.

 

[MyBelle]

But it's in the throat, not part of the vertebrae . . In long drop hanging the vertebrae is usually fractured.or completely broken or detached .

The hyoid bone is in the throat which is in the neck. I think a matter of factors including location of knot, hanging material, etc. likely influence the outcome but RZ did break a bone in her neck from hanging and all three pathologists noted it.

 

[MyBelle]

Do you guys have links for those? On number one you facts and timing are way off. Number two doesn't exist.

You'll have to ask the poster I was quoting. My point is that if either is true,--a suffocation of a child or push from a balcony--a doctor is a mandated reporter to CPS/LE.

 

[Imp]

MyBelle: Unfortunately he didn't have any opponents run against him in 2014. As a local, crossing my fingers he will be voted out on June 5, 2018. Enough of the corruption within SDSO!!!

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...molens/sd-me-smolens-gore-20180221-story.html

Interesting link! FTA:

“The public trust in law enforcement is critical to our success,” [Gore] said. “The allegations against Deputy Fischer undermine that trust and have the potential to impact public safety in this county. That’s a big concern.”

:doh:


Also FTA (BBM):

"Gore, a former top-level FBI official, has decades of law enforcement experience. He continues to have broad political support among San Diego’s establishment and, compared with Myers, good access to campaign money."