Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #8

[Pasasana]

Now that you mentioned flash drive, this is just a pure speculative thought but one of the crime scene photos was a picture of T's linen closet. In it, there was a flash drive. Odd. People don't really keep flash drives in their linen closet right?

Could it have contained the letters that she was planning to plant in T's computer? I wonder if LE analyzed the drive. Is that why she begged and begged Flores to show the crime scene photos? She took the drive out of her pocket while taking shower after killing him, then left it inadvertently in the linen closet?

Watch from 2:53:00 to 2:53:40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cpcc37rmk4A

Okay, it's late, and I've had a little wine, but... What if she had planned shooting him in the shower - I'm a shot first diehard - and she was going to make it look like suicide. She had the letters on the flash and she was going to print them out. Even though it would be weird that he kept copies of the letters he had (not) written to her, it would give a reason as to why he had killed himself. Then when she made mess of killing him, she took the flash for later use.

 

[Hope4More]

Okay, it's late, and I've had a little wine, but... What if she had planned shooting him in the shower - I'm a shot first diehard - and she was going to make it look like suicide. She had the letters on the flash and she was going to print them out. Even though it would be weird that he kept copies of the letters he had (not) written to her, it would give a reason as to why he had killed himself. Then when she made mess of killing him, she took the flash for later use.

Hmm. I thought about the staged suicide possibility too some dozens of posts ago, but didn't think to tie the letters in.

Leaving the flash drive out as source of the letters (I don't think that makes sense). If she forged them freestyle, and didn't cut and paste, and intended to use them to support a suicide story, she could have planned to leave the original forgeries on his desk, perhaps with a note from her, dated days earlier, supposedly sent from Yreka, saying she was sending them back to him (for whatever reason).

Again and again I say this, but to be redundant, I'm sure that day didn't go as she planned, start to finish, which REALLY REALLY complicates trying to figure out what she originally had in mind.

 

[Hope4More]

Logging off. Sure hope all our years' worth of work and discussion and research is still here when we return in a few days.

Happy rabbit hole diving to those who will be thus occupied during this very aptly termed "down time."

 

[krkrjx]

Regarding the 12-year-old girl thing on the tape, this is how it sounded to me:

She was talking, using a voice she thought was sexy but she made it too syrupy (for lack of a better word) and it irritated him a little. I heard irritation in his voice when he said, "You sound like a 12-year-old girl." And to that, she said something like, "Oh you like that?..."

And that's when he decided to just play along, to humor her. I think they played such roles during phone sex quite often--lots of people do so it is not too unusual.

I do not think Travis was ever interested in young girls but a lot of people are taking that part of that tape and making it sound like he wanted her to sound like that when in reality, it was a conversation that just sort of evolved, unscripted on either side. At least, that's how it sounded to me.

 

[pocketaccent]

Okay, it's late, and I've had a little wine, but... What if she had planned shooting him in the shower - I'm a shot first diehard - and she was going to make it look like suicide. She had the letters on the flash and she was going to print them out. Even though it would be weird that he kept copies of the letters he had (not) written to her, it would give a reason as to why he had killed himself. Then when she made mess of killing him, she took the flash for later use.

Shame him and kill him at the same time. Mission accomplished. I've never thought of that possibility. I do like the idea. (Your screen name reminds me of Pasadena, the city of skateboaders)

 

[Hope4More]

Glad WS didn't go down today. Sure saved me a lot of time & effort. I googled "NA55 " (ok, her name, but I never use it) and what popped up was a post here I wrote 2 years ago (!), which when I linked to it led me to the transcription I posted here that long ago of the NA55 texts. And in the same thread, (#6), all that discussion we had about those texts, and, also in the thread, the day by day synopsis of TA's texts in Feb & March I posted. And more and more and more.

I seem to have forgotten not only specific dates & bits & pieces, but a great deal of the work I've done and posted about. Sigh.

Going back over just that chunk of the work & discussions reminded me why I remained so convinced the letters were forged post arrest (though none of what I reread had to do with the letters at all).

I'm back to believing it is most probable that she forged the letters post-arrest, and most likely, after April 10, 2010.

Will wait (again) for the board to go down & be reborn before (re)posting stuff, but here's one point I thought about back then (that I'd completely forgotten about) but that seems even more relevant now:

About the NA55 texts, during which TA explicitly says to (mysterious woman he's texting with) that he's seen her photo, and that she looks very young - like a 12 year old girl.

That phrase jumped out back then, and still does. It's impossible to skim over or miss, even if one reads it without pedo accusations and letters on one's mind.

So, here's the question. Nurmi read those texts too, and he almost certainly did so by mid to late 2010, at the latest, precisely the time he was beginning to put her self defense case together, with pedo accusations at the core of the case.

He had very little to go with to "prove" pedo before or during trial. During trial, he hopped all over the 12 year old girl line from the sex tape, repeatedly, disgustingly, and with convinction.

Why then did he never bring up the NA55 texts at trial? Or at least try to get them admitted into evidence?

Or, after the fact, in his book, why no mention there? Especially since he went to great & ridiculously twisted lengths to bring up every little piece of "evidence" that had suggested to him TA was indeed a pedophile?

 

[geevee]

Very good questions Hope, I was all settled into the pedos written post-murder but pre-jail as it just seems too daunting for her to have written them while incarcerated, she'd have had to have help, likely more than once, samples of his writing (that were never confiscated), pen or pencil with eraser (good point, Rickshaw), just seems so difficult for her to have accomplished. But now you're making me think it over again.

Did Nurm think unmasking her as NA55 would be more damaging than busting out that TA used that phrase more than once? Would the jury think it was just a favorite phrase for TA to use (with no deeper, unseemly meaning behind it)?

Oh, with modern day copiers (at least as of 2008), would a fold line on a piece of paper necessarily always show up on the copy? If the pedo letters were authentic, why were the originals never brought forth in the retrial when the defense went all out to damn T with the pedo designation? Yarg, the questions are ceaseless!

I'm looking very forward to the theory you're working on, sorry I haven't been able to participate in much of the recent discussion, I've tried to stay caught up but it's usually late in the evening and by the time I've read the recent postings my brain is too tired to jump in.

Oh, do I remember correctly that the sex tape was found in several parts on the Helio? I'd have to rewatch the two guys who testified about it (gosh, can't remember either name except Neu-something, although I can visualize both their faces). One other thing, Sheriff Joe instituted video visits for all 'detainees' but it was later in her stay, think the pedos had been sent to Nurm well before that happened.

Anyway, come back soon Websleuths, we ain't done yet.

 

[RickshawFan]

The reason there were no folds in the pedo letters may be because they were sneaked out of jail in a large manila envelope, e.g. with legal docs.

Did JA's letters to the judge re, e.g. getting rid of Nurmi, have folds in them? This might have meant she was in the habit of not folding docs that were going into legal envelopes.

She could also have sneaked them out in magazines....simply put a written page between two magazine pages and glue them together. If the guard flipped through the magazine, everything would be intact.

 

[pocketaccent]

Welcom back everyone!
I reread parts of JM's book during our downtime. I had forgotten all about the photo of 3x5 card seized from the ' cell that was included in his book. And there it was. I am now even more and thoroughly convinced that the 10 Bob White letters are pre-murder (definitely pre-jail).

Why?
-One of the 10 White letters - The forged it extremely well. Very close to Travis' handwriting, IMO.
-3x5 card - Was a disastrous attempt to forge. Terribly done. Clearly she did not have the aid of T's sample writing to imitate. I see only about 10%, if that, of T's writing style and 90% hers. This is the most conclusive and by far the most convincing evidence for pre-jail forgeries.

It confirms my hunch that she was desperate to manufacture the 'original' ugly 'letters' (by way of of index cards this time. No computer paper available to smuggle).

 

[geevee]

Hiya Pocket; I lost both copies of JM's book in the flood so can't look at the pics, but given how different the index cards appear compared to the Bob Whites, do you think it's possible whomever e-mailed them to Nurm might have also been the forger? I think she could have more easily gotten info to where the forger could get samples of T's writing than been able to hide paper and writing implement and have done the pages behind bars and then get them back out. We saw pics of her cell, not a lot of privacy from what I could tell.

Anyway, it's late but since WS is back, wanted to type a quick one. The place looks nice, all clean and fresh, and we get 'trophy points'? Wonder what that's all about (a signed pic of JM with enough points? lol).

 

[TrialWatcher]

The reason there were no folds in the pedo letters may be because they were sneaked out of jail in a large manila envelope, e.g. with legal docs.

This had crossed my mind too. I use large envelopes to ensure documents arrive uncreased.

 

[TrialWatcher]

Welcom back everyone!
I reread parts of JM's book during our downtime. I had forgotten all about the photo of 3x5 card seized from the ' cell that was included in his book. And there it was. I am now even more and thoroughly convinced that the 10 Bob White letters are pre-murder (definitely pre-jail).

Why?
-One of the 10 White letters - The forged it extremely well. Very close to Travis' handwriting, IMO.
-3x5 card - Was a disastrous attempt to forge. Terribly done. Clearly she did not have the aid of T's sample writing to imitate. I see only about 10%, if that, of T's writing style and 90% hers. This is the most conclusive and by far the most convincing evidence for pre-jail forgeries.

It confirms my hunch that she was desperate to manufacture the 'original' ugly 'letters' (by way of of index cards this time. No computer paper available to smuggle).

PocketAccent, you have put up a very strong case for your arguments. More to think on above. One point, would Arias not have had boxes of evidence and notes in her cell? Could some of these have included copies of TA's handwriting in various forms? The part I have bolded - very interesting theory indeed. If only we could see the missing letters in order to have more clues from solid evidence. I hope they are released one day.

 

[pocketaccent]

Hiya Pocket; I lost both copies of JM's book in the flood so can't look at the pics, but given how different the index cards appear compared to the Bob Whites, do you think it's possible whomever e-mailed them to Nurm might have also been the forger? I think she could have more easily gotten info to where the forger could get samples of T's writing than been able to hide paper and writing implement and have done the pages behind bars and then get them back out. We saw pics of her cell, not a lot of privacy from what I could tell.

Anyway, it's late but since WS is back, wanted to type a quick one. The place looks nice, all clean and fresh, and we get 'trophy points'? Wonder what that's all about (a signed pic of JM with enough points? lol).

I believe that she is the forger for all 10 White letters, definitely pre-jail, most likely pre-murder. To have someone else do it while jailed would require good amount of communication and coordination with her 'allies'. I just don't see how she could do that from jail.

I think she was going to smuggle out the index card via one of her visitors who will then deliver to Nurmi, with an explanation like - Travis left that card in my car or whatever one night when I didn't answer his call.

(So sorry about the flood. Hope you are doing ok. We have earthquakes to deal with here and we are due one.)

 

[pocketaccent]

PocketAccent, you have put up a very strong case for your arguments. More to think on above. One point, would Arias not have had boxes of evidence and notes in her cell? Could some of these have included copies of TA's handwriting in various forms? The part I have bolded - very interesting theory indeed. If only we could see the missing letters in order to have more clues from solid evidence. I hope they are released one day.

Compared to the Bob White letters that were forged in the first half of 2008 (I believe), when she had plethora of T's sample writings, the fact is that she was only able to do half-baked job with the 3x5 card that hardly looked like T's handwriting. So I'm pretty sure she couldn't keep any copies of T's handwriting in her cell and also no longer able to imitate after 2-3 years have passed. Her memory had become foggy.

The card basically says- I followed you so don't play stupid when i ask you later. If you don't answer your phone I'll know your are a *advertiser censored*.
She didn't date the card, so she could use it for any time period. She is so crafty.

 

[Hope4More]

The reason there were no folds in the pedo letters may be because they were sneaked out of jail in a large manila envelope, e.g. with legal docs.

Did JA's letters to the judge re, e.g. getting rid of Nurmi, have folds in them? This might have meant she was in the habit of not folding docs that were going into legal envelopes.

She could also have sneaked them out in magazines....simply put a written page between two magazine pages and glue them together. If the guard flipped through the magazine, everything would be intact.

Her handwritten letter to JSS demanding that Nurmi be axed did not have creases in it, actually.

 

[Hope4More]

Compared to the Bob White letters that were forged in the first half of 2008 (I believe), when she had plethora of T's sample writings, the fact is that she was only able to do half-baked job with the 3x5 card that hardly looked like T's handwriting. So I'm pretty sure she couldn't keep any copies of T's handwriting in her cell and also no longer able to imitate after 2-3 years have passed. Her memory had become foggy.

The card basically says- I followed you so don't play stupid when i ask you later. If you don't answer your phone I'll know your are a *advertiser censored*.
She didn't date the card, so she could use it for any time period. She is so crafty.

Another brief reply, while I try to adjust to this spanking new (beautiful) format.

According to Nurmi (in his book), as he contemplated how the could have forged the letters in Estrella , he specifically notes that the had access to TA's journals. Plural.

 

[Hope4More]

OMG. I've already received trophy points for "being addicted," and "keeps coming back," and I've only been here for 5 minutes, lol.

Wonder what trophy we will all get for still posting here a year from now?

 

[Hope4More]

Compared to the Bob White letters that were forged in the first half of 2008 (I believe), when she had plethora of T's sample writings, the fact is that she was only able to do half-baked job with the 3x5 card that hardly looked like T's handwriting. So I'm pretty sure she couldn't keep any copies of T's handwriting in her cell and also no longer able to imitate after 2-3 years have passed. Her memory had become foggy.

The card basically says- I followed you so don't play stupid when i ask you later. If you don't answer your phone I'll know your are a *advertiser censored*.
She didn't date the card, so she could use it for any time period. She is so crafty.

Hi Pocket.

I'm still working on my (latest and probably not last) reply to your theory of "pre-arrest and likely pre-murder," incorporating both a timeline I believe is relevant, and some thoughts about how DeMarte's diagnosis and explaination of BPD tie in, are relevant, provide context, and IMO (along with other context) go a long way towards ruling out pre-murder forgery.

Specifics & analysis of the post-murder timeline to follow, but here's my framework for the timeline.

1. June 10 phone interviews with Flores (2) she initiated. The specific questions Flores asked her about her relationship with TA & how she replied to them; the specific accusations of TA's friends about her stalking & intrusive behavior & how she replied.

2. The June 25th phone interview with Flores (he called her back), and the subtle shifts in her replies to the same set of questions.

3. The journal entries she clearly wrote to explain away the specific accusations about her being made.



4. Flores' warning to her that he was going to subpeona her phone & computer records going back "at least 6 months, possibly a year.


5. His warning her that LE would know if and when she ever had attempted to access TA's accounts from Yreka.

6. The fact that until Flores told her he had lied, and the photos still existed, she had every reason (in her mind) to believe LE couldn't prove she was there, even if they suspect her. So, it matters what she said about their relationship BEFORE Flores broke that news. Which, BTW, actually shut her up for a few seconds.

7. As you've noted, Pocket, one thing that definitely changed for her after the photos were produced is that she couldn't risk any story-lie that suggested she might have a motive to kill Travis.

(and more, more to follow)

 

[pocketaccent]

OMG. I've already received trophy points for "being addicted," and "keeps coming back," and I've only been here for 5 minutes, lol.

Wonder what trophy we will all get for still posting here a year from now?

Geevee wants a signed picture of JM but I want a full day of questioning session with JM. My treat, breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
I like the new and improved format. It deserves pretty orchid for my avatar.

 

[pocketaccent]

Another brief reply, while I try to adjust to this spanking new (beautiful) format.

According to Nurmi (in his book), as he contemplated how the could have forged the letters in Estrella , he specifically notes that the had access to TA's journals. Plural.

But can she take the journals to her cell? Where she can rip out pages or add something in or more?