Wyle_E_Coyote
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BBM
Keep her quiet. No talking. No laughing. No eating. Keep your hands off the medical equipment.
Things like that.
Jahi McMath is Taken off Life Support Discussion
- Thread starter BetteDavisEyes
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Keep her quiet. No talking. No laughing. No eating. Keep your hands off the medical equipment.
Things like that.
SouthernSleuther
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All of which were ignored. IMO.
Pathologists provide expert testimony at trials without every actually touching the body. A neurologist can certainly form an expert opinion based on information and test results provided by other physicians. Some doctor had been routinely examining Jahi and helped convince a judge last year that she may indeed have shown changes.
Jahi McMath, girl declared brain dead three years ago, might still be technically alive, judge says
But didn't nurses provide her with a Popsicle?
SouthernSleuther
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Keywords here are nurses provided. Nurses follow physicians’ post op orders. Post op orders typically allow for a clear liquid diet, which includes popsicles. I know this because I am a nurse (take it as you will, as I am not verified on this site as such). Instructions not to eat means solid food. I can not say definitively that Jahi was given solid food; however, there are enough anecdotal accounts from other parents in the PICU to indicate this may have been the case.
Most importantly, Jahi was declared brain dead by 2 CHO physicians and 3 additional independent pediatric neurologists not affiliated with CHO and approved by the family who performed all the accepted standard medical tests used to determine brain death. Detailed explanations of these tests and their conclusions are detailed in court documents posted in the previous Jahi threads and the media thread for this case. Her brain death was established definitively prior to her release from CHO. She was allowed to be released solely based on the fact that the family secured placement for her in a state that recognizes a family’s right to ignore a brain death diagnosis on religious grounds.
Wyle_E_Coyote
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The hospital has not spoken at all about her post surgical care. They cannot - HIPAA . Unless, of course, the family signs a release which they have not shown any inclination to do. So we have no information from the hospital about what she was or was not given.
According to the family, she asked for a popsicle. I have seen varying reports about whether she was given one. The family has been silent about whether she was given any other <cough><burger> solid food. The family says a nurse told them to suction her and handed them the suction device. The family also said there were no nurses around and they started suctioning her on their own. The family said she was talking before she started bleeding (she was given a white board specifically because she couldn't or shouldn't talk). The family says grandma was there the entire evening .The family also says grandma didn't arrive until 10 pm.
Until we get contemporaneous notes (which the hospital has) and/or testimony from other families in the recovery room at that time, I don't think we can say for sure anything that happened, other than bleeding, a heart attack, and loss of blood flow to the brain.
This is the first I've heard Jahi was given solid food and it was the source of her bleeding. The media mentioned only a Popsicle provided by a nurse and even that was an hour before the bleeding started. Seems to me, if Jahi had been given solid food without the nurses' permission it would be mentioned in the notes quoted in this article.
The operation, at Oakland’s Children’s Hospital, took four hours. When Jahi awoke, at around 7 p.m. on December 9, 2013, the nurses gave her a grape Popsicle to soothe her throat. About an hour later, Jahi began spitting up blood. The nurses told her not to worry and gave her a plastic basin to catch it in. A nurse wrote in her medical records that she encouraged Jahi to “relax and not cough if possible.” By nine that night, the bandages packing Jahi’s nose had become bloody, too.
What Does It Mean to Die?
SouthernSleuther
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I doubt very seriously that this media outlet had access to any nurses’ notes as the hospital is not allowed to release them due to HIPAA. They will only be released if this case goes to trial. Everything we have been told has come from the family only.
I do believe the parents have her medical records and have given them to the news media. The Feb. 2018 magazine article I just linked quoted from them extensively. It is a lengthy article and gives the very distinct impression there was a serious breakdown in communication between the surgeon, Dr. Rosen and the nurses.
Sandra, who is warm and calm and often wears a flower tucked into her hair, arrived at the hospital at ten o’clock. When she saw that Jahi had already filled a two-hundred-millilitre basin with blood, she told a nurse, “I don’t find this to be normal. Do you find this to be normal?”
A nurse wrote in her notes that the physicians on duty were “notified several times over course of shift” that Jahi was bleeding. Another nurse wrote that the doctors were “aware of this post op bleeding” but said “there would be no immediate intervention from ENT or Surgery.” Rosen had left the hospital for the day. In his medical records, he had written that Jahi’s right carotid artery appeared abnormally close to the pharynx, a congenital condition that can potentially raise the risk of hemorrhaging. But the nurses responsible for her recovery seemed unaware of the condition and didn’t mention it in their notes.
What Does It Mean to Die?
A parent has every legal right to medical records and to release them to whomever they like. I have no reason to doubt the authenticity of the New Yorker article.
HIPAA Help Center - Privacy
Wyle_E_Coyote
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I believe those quotes were all taken from the family's court filings... Which may be accurate... Or not.
Regardless, the court filings are from the family's point of view, and everything contained there in is specifically chosen to support their case. Anything that doesn't support their claim would be left out .
If you think brain function is necessary for a ventilator to work, that is not correct. If ventilator is turned off, brain dead person's heart will stop beating.
"Today, with ventilators, blood-pressure augmentation and hormones, the body of a brain-dead person could, in theory, be kept functioning for a long time, perhaps indefinitely, Greene-Chandos said. But with time, Greene-Chandos added, the body of a brain-dead person becomes increasingly difficult to maintain, and the tissue is at high risk for infection."
Life After Brain Death: Is the Body Still 'Alive'?
Falsification of medical records is a felony and a physician can be stripped of their medical license. Both sides have access to the same medical records and both sides presented their case at a hearing last year. Evidently it was sufficient to persuade the judge that a jury would hear the case.
Good grief. Stop twisting every posting I make to fit whatever agenda you seem to have. I never said brain stem function is necessary for a ventilator to work, I said the brain stem controls the heart circulation and rate and I provided links to support my claims. All statutes on brain death require the total cessation of brain stem function and I linked them as well.
This thread is about Jahi McMath, whom expert witnesses have offered their expert opinion that she no longer met the legal definition of brain dead and apparently a Judge reached the same conclusion and that's why a trial is ahead. That is the issue which is before the courts.
This thread is about Jahi McMath, whom expert witnesses have offered their expert opinion that she no longer met the legal definition of brain dead and apparently a Judge reached the same conclusion and that's why a trial is ahead. That is the issue which is before the courts.
Soulmagent
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So I have not used the new forum yet . I hit the quote button so hope it did what i wanted it to do .Anyway if it didnt the post I wanted to qoute (so now I realize the post themselves have no numbers?Also I have not found the preveiw post crap )So Mybelle said..
"Today, with ventilators, blood-pressure augmentation and hormones, the body of a brain-dead person could, in theory, be kept functioning for a long time, perhaps indefinitely, Greene-Chandos said. But with time, Greene-Chandos added, the body of a brain-dead person becomes increasingly difficult to maintain, and the tissue is at high risk for infection." end quote.
IMO
This level of education is a sad side effect of capitalism. One of many . but just thinking about the studies they has to do to put this crap on paperwork kinda mkes me ill.
"Today, with ventilators, blood-pressure augmentation and hormones, the body of a brain-dead person could, in theory, be kept functioning for a long time, perhaps indefinitely, Greene-Chandos said. But with time, Greene-Chandos added, the body of a brain-dead person becomes increasingly difficult to maintain, and the tissue is at high risk for infection." end quote.
IMO
This level of education is a sad side effect of capitalism. One of many . but just thinking about the studies they has to do to put this crap on paperwork kinda mkes me ill.
Wyle_E_Coyote
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No one has said anything about medical records being falsified. My post only made reference to the family's court filings. The family certainly didn't present anything which would undermine their claim. I would use the term "cherry picking", but that has such negative connotations which I don't intend. All court filings are prepared using only those facts and statements which support the claim advanced.
At this stage in the litigation, the full medical files are not yet in evidence. The defendants are still constrained by HIPAA and are limited in what they can put forth. The only issue which has proceeded to testimony phase is the question of brain death in the initial suit by the family to keep the ventilator running. The testimony of the medical personnel has been limited to that single issue.
The hospital has not been allowed to release the records regarding the post-op events. The only version of those events that we have heard is that of the family. Actually, I should say "versions,” as the family has put forth a number of contradictory statements.
We will not get a full view of the events leading to her death until the wrongful death/malpractice claim goes to trial, if it does. That will likely take years, if the issue of her brain death proceeds.
BBM. There is no "if." The issue is about the legal definition of "brain death" and it will proceed. I think the speed is going to accelerate tremendously and it will be in federal court. I'm not sure why you believe whatever the family has said outside of court to be relevant. I don't.
The affidavits from the examining NJ specialists in 2014 are part of the court's public record. Multiple experts examined Jahi and both an MRI and EEG concluded she had brain activity. Rutgers University had no reason to lie about it.
The fact that a child was considered legally dead in one state and legally alive in another is a serious public policy issue. No family should have to go through that kind of health care nightmare for so long. JMO
Wyle_E_Coyote
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I think it is likely to be dropped. New Jersey is the *only* state that allows a religious exemption. 49 other states do not. Not exactly a supreme court case when a single state is out of line with all the others. And actually, NJ isn't really out of line... The state does define brain death as death. It simply has a rarely used religious exemption put in place, IIRC, due to the large Jewish population in the state.
New Jersey best place for brain-dead patients, expert says
"As far as I've been able to tell, no one knows if anyone has ever used it," he said. "You'd probably have to show you belong to a church that doesn't accept brain death or a religious group. But all that said, New Jersey...is the best destination."
The family never allowed a subsequent test for brain death. (They expressly asked the court to forbid the defendants from conducting one.). Had another standard brain death test showed activity, then that is *huge*. An EEG, meh, not so much .
Can brainwaves be detected in lime Jell-O?
The MRI shows horrific damage to the brain. It didn't show activity, just that some parts of the brain structure hadn't liquified. I don't think the family will want to go very far with the MRI... after all, if there is no structure to support auditory function, that undermines all their claims about her responding to vocal commands.
She may have regained some minimal function, IDK. But it's going to take more than a worthless EEG, an MRI that shows massive damage, and statements by doctors who never examined her and have spent the better part of their careers advocating a position that is well outside of the medical mainstream to convince me.
I would have been very interested in the results of another standard test for brain death, conducted by an independent, mainstream, neurologist. (preferably one that isn't retired and hasn't had his medical license revoked). As I said, it would be huge if another standard test for brain death showed activity. Unfortunately, the family chose not to allow it. Without the standard, medically accepted tests showing otherwise, she has remained legally dead.
The family's many statements outside court are certainly relevant in judging the veracity of their statements, both those pertaining to the events leading to her death and their subsequent claims of recovery. Especially considering they haven't allowed the hospital to release any documentation, and the emotional and financial incentive they have to see what they want to see (consciously or subconsciously).
Just like when there is a missing child, and the mother says she was just in the other room, then she says she was napping, then the child was playing outside, etc. When the story changes, that is a red flag that the person telling the story is lying. The truth doesn't change.
I feel for the mother. I've lost a child, a teenager just two years older than Jahi. And I don't blame her for not accepting her death. I would give anything to be able to delude myself that my son was still alive, in any capacity. I envy her delusion. But that doesn't, unfortunately, make it any less a delusion.