Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #29

[Tippy Lynn]

It is interesting that if people like me point out things we find disturbing about her comments and parenting, it is assumed that we are defending CW and saying that we feel that he then has the right to kill her.

I am examing the behavior and why it may have affected him. He seemed to be very subserviant. If the tables were turned and these things were said and done to a woman, how would people respond?

Saying that he was a full grown man and should take control of his life to me is the same as telling a woman she is full grown and she should take care of her life.

I think we have all seen men who are belittled by their wives. I don’t think most murder. What led CW to murder is something really strange within him .He lived for 34 years apparently never showing to anyone that he is filled with rage, is a liar, and apparently has no conscience.

I am still awestruck that no one has ever commented that he is a liar. I cannot believe that no one saw anything that indicated that things were not ok.

But people have their own busy stressful lives so they probably do not think too much of other’s lives. As my husband says, “Everyone’s lives are filled with their lives.”

This is a great post and very nicely worded. Looking at the entire picture is proving to be very difficult in this case. jmo

 

[Deleted member 230544]

In light of our current circumstances here in U.S.... help me get a visa? Justin is awesome! Lol!!! Joking... just trying to give myself some comic relief in this very intense and emotional case

 

[Jennifer17]

kizzykat said: ↑
#3 on the list, Motion for Protective Order
https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/19th_Judicial_District/caseofinterest/2018CR2003/001/(3) MOTION FOR PROTECTIVE ORDER.pdf

Bluff:
That is a lot of repeated uses of the pronoun "her" for it to be just an oversight by a court clerk. Surely, whomever typed this document up would have clued in at some point while typing especially because this is such a high profile case that extra attention would have been placed on the processing of documents. IMO

The word "her" was transcribed 6 times in this document????

The her and she were probably there on the form document from the last time it was used.

 

[esayer]

Our VI said she had never even seen him get angry. That was a red flag for me.

TBF I haven't seen many of my friends get angry at all. My best friend is very calm all the time as well as her SO. But she says they fight a lot. People don't usually show negative emotions like that around others.

 

[BeckyF]

With or without people in his life commenting he was a liar, he has shown himself to be. He was having an affair. That entails usually a lot of lying. He preened for the cameras smiling in his shirt all the while acting as if he didn't know what truly happened to Bella, CeCe, Nico and Shanann. When he clearly knew exactly where those victims were. He told NUA per her statements, the babies and Shanann were at a play date. There are a lot of examples of him proving himself to be a liar.

Men can be victims of DV. I have not seen DV in victim Shanann's SM posts.

Sometimes liars are really good liars... and people are truly fooled.

JMO

Good point. I've been wondering why no one who knows him, or anyone from his past, has come forward to say they saw anything that would suggest he was a chronic liar or had violent tendencies. Maybe he was tired of wearing his mask.

 

[bluesneakers]

Yes, he may have been putting on a nice guy act for the rest of the world. Its common in domestic abuse cases for the abuser to act nicely towards everyone else but behind closed doors he is violent towards the spouse. Then everyone says how nice he was and wouldn't harm a fly so he must have been provoked. Kind of like the pitbull defense?

Does CW have a history of domestic abuse? I mean before the night his family was murdered, what had he done behind closed doors that you consider to be domestic violence?

 

[nwmouse]

That, and the lack of serious girlfriends prior to this. And I have seen no evidence of close friendships outside husbands of his wife's friends. After I posted that that is one of the hallmarks of some of these family annihilators, I noticed there was a post about how he had friends. And yet, so far, the only people who have come forward either publicly or even just on social media, or wherever, were the Thayers, a neighborhood friend, and a couple acquaintances.

Of those, Nick Thayer seemed the closest, often working out and spending tons of time with Chris. he seemed gobsmacked by the allegations but after having Chris in his home overnight when the family was "missing", it is clear he totally believes Chris is guilty of murdering them all.

The rest were people from Colorado who seemed to be friends with the family/couple and not separately with CW, and then a couple acquaintances from high/school college (roommate) who did not seem particularly close.

I get this picture in my head of his family members desperately trying to track down "friends" and asking them to speak up about how great CW was, and how close they were, and those guys kind of saying, "Yeah, I'd rather not get involved."

I'm pretty certain he fits the pattern - nice guy, good family man, normal, but not a lot of super close relationships. Sort of a shadow personality, subsumed by stronger ones around him, since childhood.

BBM:
Does CW have siblings? I still cannot find mention of them online. As far as being overshadowed perhaps an older and stronger sibling could have made him feel inadequate?

 

[PommyMommy]

With or without people in his life commenting he was a liar, he has shown himself to be. He was having an affair. That entails usually a lot of lying. He preened for the cameras smiling in his shirt all the while acting as if he didn't know what truly happened to Bella, CeCe, Nico and Shanann. When he clearly knew exactly where those victims were. He told NUA per her statements, the babies and Shanann were at a play date. There are a lot of examples of him proving himself to be a liar.

Men can be victims of DV. I have not seen DV in victim Shanann's SM posts.

Sometimes liars are really good liars... and people are truly fooled.

JMO

BBM

Oh yes, lots of lying! While listening to this video, I tried to jot them all down. I think I was being generous while doing so, and there may be more.

1. Like, I have no inclination where they're at right now.
2. Like, I have exhausted every friend that I know of.
3. And, it's just like it's vanished.
4. Like when I got home yesterday, it was like a ghost town, like she wasn't here, the kids weren't here. I have no idea like where they went.
5. I had texted her a few times, called her, I didn't get a response.
6. Something’s not right. She's not answering the door, her car's still here.
7. She was here at the front door and that's when I knew. This isn't like her.
8. I was trying to get home as fast as I can because none of this made sense.
9. Like, if she wasn't here, where did she go?
10. If she went to a friend’s house, where could she be staying?
11. I'm just hoping right now that she's somewhere safe, and maybe she's just there but right now it's just like if she's vanished, I want her back so bad. I want those kids back so bad.
12. I just want them people to know that I want my family back. Like, I want them safe. And I want them here.
13. Last night, I wanted that knock on the door. I wanted to see, I wanted to see those kids run in, run in and just barrel-rush me and just give me a hug and knock me on the ground.
14. Unless something happens in the next hours or so. I'm hoping somebody sees something or somebody knows something and comes forward.
15. (Asked what the hardest part is) Not knowing. If they're safe or if they're in trouble.
16. I can't do anything right now from where I'm at. Like, I'm not sure if they're safe somewhere, just huddled up somewhere or if they're in trouble.
17. And knowing that if they could be in trouble, it's earth-shattering right now.
18. (Talks about the cameras and doors and how she could have left) It's so hard to tell.
19. It's really hard to even suspect anything right now as far as how she could have left or if someone came and picked her up or if somebody took her.
20. I just want them home so bad.
21. I saw the kids on the monitor before I left, and that was it.
22. Canine units, they're getting scents, so hopefully they can pick up something and kinda go in a direction that will actually lead us to where maybe they're at right now.
23. (Basically ignores question about pregnancy) Mmm hmm, that's why I want everybody back.
24. I want everybody, I need everybody back here, and everybody safe.

 

[nwmouse]

Does CW have a history of domestic abuse? I mean before the night his family was murdered, what had he done behind closed doors that you consider to be domestic violence?

That's what I was asking and offering a reason as to why its a red flag that he was never known to lose his temper or get angry. It was a "maybe" hypothesis as many of us are trying to reason out WHY he did what he did. MOO.

 

[Johnny1181]

BBM

Oh yes, lots of lying! While listening to this video, I tried to jot them all down. I think I was being generous while doing so, and there may be more.

1. Like, I have no inclination where they're at right now.
2. Like, I have exhausted every friend that I know of.
3. And, it's just like it's vanished.
4. Like when I got home yesterday, it was like a ghost town, like she wasn't here, the kids weren't here. I have no idea like where they went.
5. I had texted her a few times, called her, I didn't get a response.
6. Something’s not right. She's not answering the door, her car's still here.
7. She was here at the front door and that's when I knew. This isn't like her.
8. I was trying to get home as fast as I can because none of this made sense.
9. Like, if she wasn't here, where did she go?
10. If she went to a friend’s house, where could she be staying?
11. I'm just hoping right now that she's somewhere safe, and maybe she's just there but right now it's just like if she's vanished, I want her back so bad. I want those kids back so bad.
12. I just want them people to know that I want my family back. Like, I want them safe. And I want them here.
13. Last night, I wanted that knock on the door. I wanted to see, I wanted to see those kids run in, run in and just barrel-rush me and just give me a hug and knock me on the ground.
14. Unless something happens in the next hours or so. I'm hoping somebody sees something or somebody knows something and comes forward.
15. (Asked what the hardest part is) Not knowing. If they're safe or if they're in trouble.
16. I can't do anything right now from where I'm at. Like, I'm not sure if they're safe somewhere, just huddled up somewhere or if they're in trouble.
17. And knowing that if they could be in trouble, it's earth-shattering right now.
18. (Talks about the cameras and doors and how she could have left) It's so hard to tell.
19. It's really hard to even suspect anything right now as far as how she could have left or if someone came and picked her up or if somebody took her.
20. I just want them home so bad.
21. I saw the kids on the monitor before I left, and that was it.
22. Canine units, they're getting scents, so hopefully they can pick up something and kinda go in a direction that will actually lead us to where maybe they're at right now.
23. (Basically ignores question about pregnancy) Mmm hmm, that's why I want everybody back.
24. I want everybody, I need everybody back here, and everybody safe.

Thank you for taking the time to do this.

 

[katydid23]

kizzykat said: ↑
#3 on the list, Motion for Protective Order
https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/19th_Judicial_District/caseofinterest/2018CR2003/001/(3) MOTION FOR PROTECTIVE ORDER.pdf

Bluff:
That is a lot of repeated uses of the pronoun "her" for it to be just an oversight by a court clerk. Surely, whomever typed this document up would have clued in at some point while typing especially because this is such a high profile case that extra attention would have been placed on the processing of documents. IMO

The word "her" was transcribed 6 times in this document????

And to add: that the public defender or the person who signed for the public defender on this document should have proofed the document before signing.

The word 'her' might not have been actually transcribed 6x. If it was a template that is used, which is quite common, then it was just not corrected. Sloppy, but probably a common mistake.

 

[SeesSeas]

The VI that has known his the longest and the best, says she has never seen him get angry.

[ I have tried to go back and find that post --but I cannot log in and retrieve the past posts from that account]

I think it's this post by @Trinket78 , which I found by 'search':
Found Deceased - CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #22
I never saw him angry. I never saw him lose his cool. He just went with the flow. I wasn’t with him every moment of his life so this is just what I witnessed.
Trinket78, Sep 13, 2018

 

[tmar]

PommyMommy, "Yes, there are some signs of nervousness, but I think that's normal under the circumstances. I despise speaking in public and would probably show more anxiety being interviewed about ANYTHING - let alone my missing family! Have you watched this video?"

I knew a guy, who LOVED to present in public.
He would request, if I wish, that he presents my work.
I would prepare things, give him the notes, and he spoke:
he did brilliantly.
He became an important guy, in a very large hospital!!
Head of a very large department.

 

[Johnny1181]

Good point. I've been wondering why no one who knows him, or anyone from his past, has come forward to say they saw anything that would suggest he was a chronic liar or had violent tendencies. Maybe he was tired of wearing his mask.

Maybe he was just that good of a liar that people were truly fooled. Til he came up against LE. IMO

 

[gitana1]

It is interesting that if people like me point out things we find disturbing about her comments and parenting, it is assumed that we are defending CW and saying that we feel that he then has the right to kill her.

I am examing the behavior and why it may have affected him. He seemed to be very subserviant. If the tables were turned and these things were said and done to a woman, how would people respond?

Saying that he was a full grown man and should take control of his life to me is the same as telling a woman she is full grown and she should take care of her life.

I think we have all seen men who are belittled by their wives. I don’t think most murder. What led CW to murder is something really strange within him .He lived for 34 years apparently never showing to anyone that he is filled with rage, is a liar, and apparently has no conscience.

I am still awestruck that no one has ever commented that he is a liar. I cannot believe that no one saw anything that indicated that things were not ok.

But people have their own busy stressful lives so they probably do not think too much of other’s lives. As my husband says, “Everyone’s lives are filled with their lives.”

Here's the thing: In general, men have a power position over women. There is a looooong history of men having property rights over women's property, and women having none, the power to vote while women did not, the ability to put a woman in a mental hospital without justification, take her children from her, leave her penniless, control her daily life and be supported in that by his family, her family, the churches and the courts, and even to commit domestic violence against her repeatedly, and just be told to take a walk to "cool down", or to have the wife be told not to anger him and to simply be sweet.

Those attitudes continue in many subcultures in the US today.

As a result of this long history and the resultant feminist movement, there was a shift in social attitudes that deemed certain things appropriate while others were not.

Popular culture evidences the shift. Especially t.v. and film.

So we go from the early to mid-fifties I Love Lucy episodes where she says "yes sir" to her husband, he threatens her with physical violence, and actually uses it, spanking her in at least on episode.

Then we see the slight change to the late 60's, the Brady Bunch. The couple represents more of a team now, working on decisions together (with that happening more strongly toward the middle and end of the series).

Go to the 70's and you see single, working women for really the first time (Mary Tyler Moore).

This changes again in the late 90's, early 00's. As with many things, the shift, in order to definitively and decisively divorce itself from a history of a male-dominated patriarchy in which wife beating was not great but not criminalized, etc., went the other way a bit.

So you get programs like 7th heaven, where the wife is constantly scolding and lecturing her husband, and King of Queens, in which Leah Remini's character is described as: "Doug's sardonic wife. She has a quick-temper and is occasionally physically abusive to Doug. She has been characterized as scary by Holly and Doug, particularly when she is angry. During a flashback, Carrie concludes that she is happier (she describes herself as never being truly happy) when others are miserable. She never finished college and is employed as a hard-working legal secretary. Her constant attempts to make her relationship with Doug more romantic and meaningful cause Doug frustration, as he prefers a simple life with as few restrictions as possible. The more quick-witted and adventurous of the couple, Carrie often pushes Doug to make more of himself and improve his morals, but she can be just as immoral as he is. Although Carrie scolds Doug for his selfish behavior, she has proven to be selfish as well at times, with little patience for others' problems or tolerance for their quirks."
The King of Queens - Wikipedia

This is all part of attempts to stabilize roles and sort of fix certain historic and social imbalances of power between the sexes.

(My BA is in American Studies BTW, so I happen to know a bit about American social history, etc.).

I represent a lot of men for some reason. Dads love me. So I am well aware that men are also victims of domestic violence and can be manipulated and victimized by women. I was particularly disgusted by the idea, during the jodi arias trial, that Travis was not a victim of domestic violence.

But it remains true that women continue to suffer more of DV than men, and that men cause more damage, statistically, when they commit it, than women. Women continue to represent 94% of all the intimate partner homicides in the nation.

So there is a more visceral, instinctive reaction when people hear a man badgering a woman, teasing her, or publicly criticizing her, than when a woman does so. It tends, socially, to represent something more profound - an imbalance of power that continues to exist, despite the attempts society has made to repair that imbalance.

In the past, like the Victorian era, a woman who disagreed with her husband in public, just an opinion about literature or politics, was seen as way out of line, unfeminine and shrewish. Today, it is frankly socially acceptable for the most part for women to complain publicly about hapless husbands, husbands who won't pick up after themselves, don't know how to shop, allow the kids to eat forbidden things and make a mess and do "dangerous" things, who fart, and don't groom enough, etc. It's part of popular culture.

So no, it is not the same. The whole history of the imbalance of power between men and women make that so. (Even though some in society continue to cling to notions of femininity from the past - A woman must always be sweet and nurturing and protective and babying of her kids, for example, and must never criticize or tease her husband, etc).

Finally, man or woman - I will never and have never accepted the defense that a parent was controlled and abused by another parent and thus was unable to protect their children from harm, unless they are actually chained or a firearm is used. Casting CW as "subservient" and "passive" is a way of excusing his potential perceived inadequacies as a parent - his inaction or participation in events on video that many here apparently feel evidence child neglect or abuse - and absolve him from his responsibility as a parent, while continuing to enable SW to be eviscerated as an abusive, neglectful and cruel parent, for the events HE also participated in, IMO.

 

[gitana1]

I am interested in his family as well. If I had his parents names I could do a tree on ancestry, but haven't found any. It's hard to search CW because of all the articles out there.

We can't sleuth them. Against the rules.

 

[Deleted member 230544]

The her and she were probably there on the form document from the last time it was used.

You would assume that there are strict policies in place at any law office to review out going documents before signing off on them and before submissions. Especially in a case of this magnitude.

 

[Deleted member 230544]

I think it's this post by @Trinket78 , which I found by 'search':
Found Deceased - CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #22
I never saw him angry. I never saw him lose his cool. He just went with the flow. I wasn’t with him every moment of his life so this is just what I witnessed.
Trinket78, Sep 13, 2018

Based on what I observed in all the videos I watched of CW on facebook, he did appear as the VI suggests "to just go with the flow" even when things appeared stressful between him and SW and even when the girls were stressed as well.

 

[esayer]

Here's the thing: In general, men have a power position over women. There is a looooong history of men having property rights over women's property, and women having none, the power to vote while women did not, the ability to put a woman in a mental hospital without justification, take her children from her, leave her penniless, control her daily life and be supported in that by his family, her family, the churches and the courts, and even to commit domestic violence against her repeatedly, and just be told to take a walk to "cool down", or to have the wife be told not to anger him and to simply be sweet.

Those attitudes continue in many subcultures in the US today.

As a result of this long history and the resultant feminist movement, there was a shift in social attitudes that deemed certain things appropriate while others were not.

Popular culture evidences the shift. Especially t.v. and film.

So we go from the early to mid-fifties I Love Lucy episodes where she says "yes sir" to her husband, he threatens her with physical violence, and actually uses it, spanking her in at least on episode.

Then we see the slight change to the late 60's, the Brady Bunch. The couple represents more of a team now, working on decisions together (with that happening more strongly toward the middle and end of the series).

Go to the 70's and you see single, working women for really the first time (Mary Tyler Moore).

This changes again in the late 90's, early 00's. As with many things, the shift, in order to definitively and decisively divorce itself from a history of a male-dominated patriarchy in which wife beating was not great but not criminalized, etc., went the other way a bit.

So you get programs like 7th heaven, where the wife is constantly scolding and lecturing her husband, and King of Queens, in which Leah Remini's character is described as: "Doug's sardonic wife. She has a quick-temper and is occasionally physically abusive to Doug. She has been characterized as scary by Holly and Doug, particularly when she is angry. During a flashback, Carrie concludes that she is happier (she describes herself as never being truly happy) when others are miserable. She never finished college and is employed as a hard-working legal secretary. Her constant attempts to make her relationship with Doug more romantic and meaningful cause Doug frustration, as he prefers a simple life with as few restrictions as possible. The more quick-witted and adventurous of the couple, Carrie often pushes Doug to make more of himself and improve his morals, but she can be just as immoral as he is. Although Carrie scolds Doug for his selfish behavior, she has proven to be selfish as well at times, with little patience for others' problems or tolerance for their quirks."
The King of Queens - Wikipedia

This is all part of attempts to stabilize roles and sort of fix certain historic and social imbalances of power between the sexes.

(My BA is in American Studies BTW, so I happen to know a bit about American social history, etc.).

I represent a lot of men for some reason. Dads love me. So I am well aware that men are also victims of domestic violence and can be manipulated and victimized by women. I was particularly disgusted by the idea, during the jodi arias trial, that Travis was not a victim of domestic violence.

But it remains true that women continue to suffer more of DV than men, and that men cause more damage, statistically, when they commit it, than women. Women continue to represent 94% of all the intimate partner homicides in the nation.

So there is a more visceral, instinctive reaction when people hear a man badgering a woman, teasing her, or publicly criticizing her, than when a woman does so. It tends, socially, to represent something more profound - an imbalance of power that continues to exist, despite the attempts society has made to repair that imbalance.

In the past, like the Victorian era, a woman who disagreed with her husband in public, just an opinion about literature or politics, was seen as way out of line, unfeminine and shrewish. Today, it is frankly socially acceptable for the most part for women to complain publicly about hapless husbands, husbands who won't pick up after themselves, don't know how to shop, allow the kids to eat forbidden things and make a mess and do "dangerous" things, who fart, and don't groom enough, etc. It's part of popular culture.

So no, it is not the same. The whole history of the imbalance of power between men and women make that so. (Even though some in society continue to cling to notions of femininity from the past - A woman must always be sweet and nurturing and protective and babying of her kids, for example, and must never criticize or tease her husband, etc).

Finally, man or woman - I will never and have never accepted the defense that a parent was controlled and abused by another parent and thus was unable to protect their children from harm, unless they are actually chained or a firearm is used. Casting CW as "subservient" and "passive" is a way of excusing his potential perceived inadequacies as a parent - his inaction or participation in events on video that many here apparently feel evidence child neglect or abuse - and absolve him from his responsibility as a parent, while continuing to enable SW to be eviscerated as an abusive, neglectful and cruel parent, for the events HE also participated in, IMO.

Wow I wish I could super like this or give you Reddit gold!

 

[gitana1]

Yes, I think there will be more evidence to prove this, but IMO there is already a significant amount of circumstantial evidence to reasonably conclude CW was the only murderer in the house that night.

Seriously. It's an avalanche for me.