Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9

[andreww]

You can find various references on the internet regarding ligature neck compression and involuntary convulsions associated to it, written by medical experts who have become specialists in that particular field of research.

It’s doubtful any of us here have experienced it first hand.

Shouldn't be hard for you to find a reference then.

Hanging can be painless if done the right way.

Try to keep the knot of the ligature/rope under the chin so that it may compresses the CAROTID ARTERY, JUGULAR VEIN and VERTEBRAL ARTERIES but doesn't blocks the airway (windpipe, through which we breathe). This will ensure breathing as long as one is conscious. As breathing doesn't stop, the pain will reduce considerably as no carbondioxide will built up in the lungs.

Once these arteries and veins are sufficiently compressed blood supply to the brain will stop. Brain will not recieve any oxygen(called Anoxia). Normally 20 to 30 pound (15 kgs at most) of force is sufficient. This will induce unconsciousness very quickly, within 20 seconds or more. Death will follow soon. Due to being in state of unconsciousness its difficult to perceive pain (as in the case of surgery with anaesthesia).

Full hanging is also not necessary to achieve this, partial suspension hanging is sufficient when the victims feets are still touching the ground.

https://www.quora.com/Is-death-by-hanging-painful

 

[MistyWaters]

Ah, thats what they said, but today we find out that they haven't even collected fingerprints of cleaners and people known to be in the house. That is the FIRST thing you do. So if they didn't do that, what did they do? And why did they not even take that first step? Me thinks TPS is like the shady mechanic who claims to have been under the hood for hours but did nothing.

A few posts back you were defending TPS. So are you know admitting the family had good reason to be concerned when m/s immediately hit the news waves, credited to a “police source”, without adequate time for any investigation or a complete autopsy to be conducted?

 

[MistyWaters]

Shouldn't be hard for you to find a reference then.

Yes, I’ve found serveral. Is there any particular reason you’re unable to, given your keen interest in this case?

 

[MistyWaters]

Shouldn't be hard for you to find a reference then.

Hanging can be painless if done the right way.

Try to keep the knot of the ligature/rope under the chin so that it may compresses the CAROTID ARTERY, JUGULAR VEIN and VERTEBRAL ARTERIES but doesn't blocks the airway (windpipe, through which we breathe). This will ensure breathing as long as one is conscious. As breathing doesn't stop, the pain will reduce considerably as no carbondioxide will built up in the lungs.

Once these arteries and veins are sufficiently compressed blood supply to the brain will stop. Brain will not recieve any oxygen(called Anoxia). Normally 20 to 30 pound (15 kgs at most) of force is sufficient. This will induce unconsciousness very quickly, within 20 seconds or more. Death will follow soon. Due to being in state of unconsciousness its difficult to perceive pain (as in the case of surgery with anaesthesia).

Full hanging is also not necessary to achieve this, partial suspension hanging is sufficient when the victims feets are still touching the ground.

https://www.quora.com/Is-death-by-hanging-painful

The cause of death was not by hanging with the victims feet touching or not touching the ground.

And sorry but I’m not interested in posting graphic litature regarding death by ligature neck compression or why the body positioning should’ve been a red flag early on. But just because I have no intention of initiating a discussion verging on gore, doesn’t mean the information can’t easily be found by a google search.

 

[Satchie]

Ah, thats what they said, but today we find out that they haven't even collected fingerprints of cleaners and people known to be in the house. That is the FIRST thing you do. So if they didn't do that, what did they do? And why did they not even take that first step? Me thinks TPS is like the shady mechanic who claims to have been under the hood for hours but did nothing.

I agree that, these days, any attempt to influence public opinion by releasing selective information can, and often does, backfire. Greenspan is perhaps not as media savvy as his brother was.

No single fact or tidbit can prove anything on it's own, not in science, not in crime-solving. You have to know the context for every detail, and that means knowing all the facts and how they all stand in relation to each other.

Perhaps there are no unidentified fingerprints associated with the crime that they need to match up to anyone. Or perhaps police obtained the cleaner's fingerprints from something they'd touched during an interview, to avoid the cleaner knowing they were collecting their fingerprints. Who knows.

 

[JayFriend]

Everyone should watch the whole press conference

Unfortunately the audio of the questions is extremely low, so you have to turn up the volume whatever way you can and concentrate. It answers a lot of questions that many have been asking throughout. It seems to me that the TPS has some answering to do. It's my thought that this crime is well beyond their resources and capabilities. Investigating the murder of billionaires by unknown contractors is not as simple as the McArthur case

 

[sceawian]

Welp, this blew up a bit.

I was specifically referring to the autonomic respiratory and movement response (convulsions) that can occur with asphyxiation. Even if the compression is not to the airway, but to the vasculature (stopping oxygen getting to the brain) you can still get abnormal posturing, also known as decorticate and decerebrate rigidity. Here's a good illustration: Abnormal Posturing. Decorticate and Decerebrate Rigidity - HealthnPhysio

But my point was simply that a neat presentation of a body doesn't necessarily mean suicide, just as a disordered presentation of a body doesn't necessarily mean murder.

I was just speculating why Barry could have been posed neatly, even though it wouldn't make it look more like suicide.

---

Some 'general' references if you're interested (no graphic pictures):

Sauvageau et al. (2010). Agonal Sequences in Eight Filmed Hangings: Analysis of Respiratory and Movement Responses to Asphyxia by Hanging
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1556-4029.2010.01434.x

Iserson, K. V. (1984). Strangulation: A review of ligature, manual, and postural neck compression injuries.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0196064484806095

Yau, R. K. & Paschall, M. J. (2018). Epidemiology of asphyxiation suicides in the United States, 2005–2014.
Epidemiology of asphyxiation suicides in the United States, 2005–2014

 

[MistyWaters]

Toronto police Chief Mark Saunders, responding to Greenspan at a late-afternoon news conference, defended his investigators, saying the probe was being conducted "to a very high level of professionalism and a high level of expertise."

While he did not address many of Greenspan's specific allegations, Saunders said a lot of work was done from the beginning to protect the integrity of the investigation. While divisional officers first took on the probe, homicide investigators were brought in to oversee the work, as was a forensic pathologist.

He also noted that more than 50 officers have worked on the case, more than 200 witnesses have been interviewed and officers have collected more than 2,000 hours of video surveillance from neighbours.

"The investigation was not taken lightly and still is not taken lightly," he said.

While rewards don't always help lead to breakthroughs in cases, he said, he welcomed the development, saying at the very least it will bring the investigation "back into the light."

Asked whether Toronto police would participate in a separate expert panel Greenspan is convening to assess the information that comes through the tip line, Saunders said he would want to know more about its terms of reference and whether that would stand up to the scrutiny of a court proceeding.

"If it meets that test, then definitely we will be involved," he said.

There’s more here:
Family of Barry and Honey Sherman offers reward of up to $10M for information about killings | CBC News

 

[matou]

Wow if only every family had 10 million to drop on a reward for a missing person or murder investigation. I doubt it will ever be paid out. Jmo

 

[MistyWaters]

From the above CBC link - Why, well of course they won’t say.

Why did police wait to talk to witnesses?
“The real estate agent confirmed that it was "at least a week or two" after police first started investigating the homicides before they reached out to him and his clients.

The agent says he was interviewed at a local police division and agreed to provide investigators with the shoes he was wearing when he was inside the Sherman home.

CBC News asked Toronto police why investigators seemingly waited for up to two weeks before interviewing witnesses who were inside the mansion around the time the bodies were discovered.

Toronto police spokesperson Meaghan Gray said the service cannot discuss details, because the investigation is ongoing.

The agent said police contacted him again recently to come in for fingerprinting, but hasn't been told when or where that will happen.“

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Thoughts, Kerry Winter?

 

[MistyWaters]

Wow if only every family had 10 million to drop on a reward for a missing person or murder investigation. I doubt it will ever be paid out. Jmo

Well if KW knows the identity of the supposed “helper”, I’d bet $10 million of Sherman money would get him taking.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Well if KW knows the identity of the supposed “helper”, I’d bet $10 million of Sherman money would get him taking.

I haven’t been following for the last few months- KW has said he knows the identity of a ‘helper’?

 

[Kaley Smith]

These details may have come out on here further back, but in case not. This is from someone who knows more than I do about the Shermans: I suspect Barry Sherman had hundreds of enemies and was quite likely a hated man by many! A professor of law at the University of Ottawa said, "I think he was probably the most active litigant in any industry" and "there's no one else in Federal Court whose name is attched to more cases than I know of." He was exceptionally agressive and issued hundreds of lawsuits against competitors, against giants such as Pfizer, Merck & Co, and also against gov't regulators. He was also known to do backroom deals, they had a public relations nightmare when it was revealed that the company had reached a $40-million backroom deal to delay selling a version of Bristol-Myers Squibb’s blockbuster anticoagulant Plavix. It doesn't surprise me he got "bumped off." I also know he was very generous but also very disliked.

And Apotex (Sherman's company) also faced lawsuits. For example, Teva filed a lawsuit against the CEO of Apotex and Apotex that the CEO had received trade secrets from his girlfriend who had previously worked for Teva. Teva is an Israeli multinational pharmaceutical company. Its estimated that Apotex spent 50 million a year in legal costs over the last 10 years!
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[Satchie]

From the above CBC link - Why, well of course they won’t say.

Why did police wait to talk to witnesses?
“The real estate agent confirmed that it was "at least a week or two" after police first started investigating the homicides before they reached out to him and his clients.

The agent says he was interviewed at a local police division and agreed to provide investigators with the shoes he was wearing when he was inside the Sherman home.

CBC News asked Toronto police why investigators seemingly waited for up to two weeks before interviewing witnesses who were inside the mansion around the time the bodies were discovered.

Toronto police spokesperson Meaghan Gray said the service cannot discuss details, because the investigation is ongoing.

The agent said police contacted him again recently to come in for fingerprinting, but hasn't been told when or where that will happen.“

I noticed that issue of this witness was addressed in a question to Greenspan's press conference and Tom Klatt downplayed it as not being significant.

 

[MistyWaters]

I haven’t been following for the last few months- KW has said he knows the identity of a ‘helper’?

Upon various discussions of KWs m/s theory involving the complexity of suicide involved by Barry possibly exhibiting wrist markings, the manner in which the coat was apparently restricting arm movement, then how one would go about securing a belt, etc KWs suggestion was that Barry, after murdering Honey, enlisted an assistant to help him die by suicide. I don’t recall KW ever stating whether or not he’s aware of the identity of the supposed “helper” or why he seems to believe this extremely unlikely scenario would even be possible.

 

[Satchie]

It seems to me that the TPS has some answering to do. It's my thought that this crime is well beyond their resources and capabilities. Investigating the murder of billionaires %unknown contractors is not as simple as the McArthur case

RSBM

So are you suggesting TPS should have known in advance that a billionaire in their jurisdiction was going to be murdered by, according to you, a contract killing, and should have put into place the resources and capabilities? Whatever those are.

I'm sure TPS are extremely frustrated that the Sherman's didn't install a security system at their home, like every other billionaire/mllionaire/
middle-class homeowner in Toronto. It's a simple expedient known to both prevent crime and assist in solving it.

Since the Sherman's didn't anticipate their own murders, why do you expect police to be standing by, ready to solve it in a jiffy?

Police jurisdictions cooperate, if there was evidence of organized crime or international criminals, they can contact their partners for assistance.

 

[Arnie M]

A person can be strangulated just fine when tied with a belt to a railing like that providing their rear end is a couple of inches off the floor ..... most of the body weight will be suspended by the belt with a small amount of the weight carried by heels on the outstretched legs.

And for those who say a belt is not conductive to strangulation ..... remember people (kids) have been strangled on such things as twisted curtains and hand towel dispensers in public bathrooms , (the ones with the 12" wide cotton towel that loops down under the dispenser) ..... many men have been strangled by wide neckties caught in machinery .... so on and so forth.

And as far as the glasses , if it was suicide , it would be normal they would be left on , and if legs were crossed at the ankles could explain no thrashing around .

Not sure what to make of today's Greenspan speech , mostly we hear how distressful this continues to be for the family and really nothing about any new leads or evidence.

$10 million is a hefty reward , that's for sure , but if there is no suspect out there they could make it a Billion and never have to pay out.

 

[JayFriend]

RSBM

So are you suggesting TPS should have known in advance that a billionaire in their jurisdiction was going to be murdered by, according to you, a contract killing, and should have put into place the resources and capabilities? Whatever those are..

Not at all. Where they erred was in their original presumption it was a murder/suicide and failed to properly secure the scene and gather all possible evidence. By the time they changed their mind and acknowledged it wa a double murder, it was too late. It doesn't matter if the victims were a couple of homeless drug addicts or billionaires. If it were the former, it would be case closed, but in the latter case, the family affected won't let it rest and have the financial resources to keep the investigation going. I this case, only the rich have a hope of seeing justice. It's sad but true.

 

[tarabull]

Did I hear correctly -- a maid let the realtor & his clients in???