CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #7

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Am I sure that CM is a liar?

I am sure that's one of the most accurate words to describe him, yes.

I find it hilarious that some seem so convinced CM isn't a lair, and is trustworthy and so credible. Ha

This MAN is infamously known as being a conman.

They con others because they are very good LIARS That's what they do. Lie, lie, lie! Lol Honest people do not become cons.

We can just ask all of the living victims he has conned out of thousands if CM is a pathological liar or a man who has high integrity, and credibility? I think we all know what their answers would be.

If CM was really honest, and credible he wouldnt have ever been able to con others out of thousands, many times over.

Of course he is a liar, and I'm sure he thinks he is very darn good at it too.lol
 
Yes. Many things Chase has said have checked out. He said Joey gave him checks on the 4th-Chase had checks. He said he never drove the Trooper, that appears to be true given where his DNA is and where it is not. The pattern of QB activity and the fact that Joey never alerts his bank or authorities to theft, yet we know he accessed his accounts that week, would indicate that Joey was fine with Chase's check writing.

Seen in a certain light, Chase's credibility is rock solid.

I don't see how Chase is a credible person, in any light. He has a long, ugly criminal history. A horrible business reputation, many angry clients that he cheated and lied to. He was behind in rent and bills, while gambling away money that his kids needed. His credibility is anything but rock solid.

Joey was his enabler. Just because Joey didn't immediately call the authorities, that doesn't mean he was 'fine' with Chase writing those checks.

First of all, Chase deleted his entries on the accounts. So we don't know if Joey had seen much of anything yet. He may have seen the 'chase merritt' vendor addition on the Contacts acct, or may not have noticed it yet. We don't know. And if he did, he may have confronted Chase at lunch.

Since Chase is a seasoned conman and grifter, he had a great explanation ready for his boss. Chase said at an earlier time, that he and Joey argued at lunch but they worked it out. I believe that's exactly what happened.

I doubt Joey wanted to have Chase arrested. And I don't think he'd want to report fraudulent checks to the bank. That can get his business accounts frozen and it is a huge hassle. He probably figured he could handle it himself.

He could easily have Chase work off that money. He had no idea what horror was awaiting him, imo.
 
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I disagree.

How Forensic DNA Evidence Can Lead to Wrongful Convictions | JSTOR Daily

Then there’s the uncomfortable and inconvenient truth that any of us could have DNA present at a crime scene—even if we were never there. Moreover, DNA recovered at a crime scene could have been deposited there at a time other than when the crime took place. Someone could have visited beforehand or stumbled upon the scene afterward. Alternatively, their DNA could have arrived via a process called secondary transfer, where their DNA was transferred to someone else, who carried it to the scene.

Additionally, DNA technology is becoming more and more sensitive, but this is a double-edged sword. On one hand, usable DNA evidence is more likely to be detected than ever before. On the other hand, contamination DNA and DNA that arrived by secondary transfer is now more likely to be detected, confusing investigations. If legal and judicial personnel aren’t fully trained in how to interpret forensic and DNA evidence, it can result in false leads and miscarriages of justice.


This link came from the above article (a report from forensic scientists) has a bunch of information about transfer DNA, including scenario's and criminal cases where it was found to be transfer DNA. Do a search for "transfer" in the document:

https://senseaboutscience.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/making-sense-of-forensic-genetics.pdf

DNA gets everywhere. Besides the more obvious methods of DNA transfer, including drops of blood or deposits of semen, small amounts of DNA can also find their way onto people, places and objects via droplets of saliva from talking, sneezing, skin cells shed into house dust or by being left on the surfaces that people touch. Given how easily DNA can be transferred, this means your DNA could be in a room even if you weren’t.

If your DNA is found at a location, it could be present because:

(a) You have been there;
(b) You touched an object that was later carried to the location by someone else (eg an item of your clothing);
(c) You encountered a person, who soon after touches something at the location, inadvertently leaving your DNA there (eg you shook hands with them or you both previously touched the same surface).

Scenario: A man is attacked by someone wearing a mask, while walking home from a party. Your DNA is found on the victim’s hands. You were also at the party, and had no direct contact with the victim, but you both poured a glass of wine from the same bottle. This caused your DNA to be transferred to their hands. This is known as secondary transfer.

Real life Example: When local taxi driver David Butler’s DNA was recovered from the fingernails of murdered sex worker Anne Marie Foy, it seemed like an open and shut case. It was presumed that Ms Foy had torn at his skin as he hit and strangled her, before dumping her body in a park near Liverpool city centre in September 2005. The amount of DNA found by police was tiny, but enough to generate a hit against the UK’s DNA database (see next chapter), identifying Mr Butler as the source. He denied ever having met the victim, but even though other evidence was lacking, the DNA evidence was enough to see him charged with murder. However, Mr Butler’s defence team queried precisely how that DNA got onto the victim’s nails. They established that he was sometimes known by the nickname “flaky”, because of the dry skin condition he suffered from, and suggested that perhaps some of his skin cells had transferred to bank notes that were later used to pay Ms Foy — an example of secondary DNA transfer — or they had been transferred to her through other innocent means12. Mr Butler was acquitted.

Framed for Murder By His Own DNA

Framed By Your Own Cells: How DNA Evidence Imprisons The Innocent

Tiny amounts of touch-transferred DNA have placed people at locations they had never visited and implicated people for crimes they did not commit.

These are just from the first 3 links when googling "Transfer DNA wrongful conviction". For anyone that believes it's not real, you really should read the links, or even google it yourself and see just how many links/cases/documents/reports show up. This stuff is pretty scary if you think about it LOL But as the one article stated, with advanced technology and the ability to pick up the DNA, the flip side is they are also able to find transfer DNA.

Happy to get down in the weeds on DNA but an article claiming Holtzclaw is innocent is perhaps not a strong place to start

Then Amanda Knox?

Knox was charged on far more than potential touch transfer DNA.

Of course it is theoretically possible that touch transfer can happen, but you are moving to an assertion that it happened in this case....

I think arguments in this space are better based on peer reviewed science
 
I keep seeing recurring comments that people make mistakes. I think the biggest mistake was Joseph taking CM under his wing. IMO.


I thinks joeys biggest mistake was lending Chase £££ and not demanding that he seek help like rehab. What’s the point of giving him money that he would then go out and blow again?

Chase needed a intervention not more money to burn through.
 
I don't see how Chase is a credible person, in any light. He has a long, ugly criminal history. A horrible business reputation, many angry clients that he cheated and lied to. He was behind in rent and bills, while gambling away money that his kids needed. His credibility is anything but rock solid.

Joey was his enabler. Just because Joey didn't call immediately call the authorities, that doesn't mean he was 'fine' with Chase writing those checks.

First of all, Joey deleted his entries on the accounts. So we don't know if Joey had seen much of anything yet. He may have seen the 'chase merritt' vendor addition on the Contacts acct, or may not have noticed it yet. We don't know. And if he did, he may have confronted Chase at lunch.

Since Chase is a seasoned conman and grifter, he had a great explanation ready for his boss. Chase said at an earlier time, that he and Joey argued at lunch but they worked it out. I believe that's exactly what happened.

I doubt Joey wanted to have Chase arrested. And I don't think he'd want to report fraudulent checks to the bank. That can get his business accounts frozen and it is a huge hassle. He probably figured he could handle it himself.

He could easily have Chase work off that money. He had no idea what horror was awaiting him, imo.
Joseph was the type of person who wouldn't have you arrested if you wronged him. He would think about Cathy and her kids before Chase would.
 
Something I discovered in my travels in true crime is that articles and documentaries about cases routinely contain incredible inaccuracies. Especially where forensics are concerned.

Pistorius and Knox are 2 such cases.

it is critical to stick to primary sources, rather than what an expert or attorney or even more laughably, the defence PR team, is claiming in the media
 
Joseph was the type of person who wouldn't have you arrested if you wronged him. He would think about Cathy and her kids before Chase would.
Yeah, I think JM strongly suspected it was Chase who’d helped himself to money via QB but he probs didn’t have all the evidence yet having only just discovered the deception. JM was probs waiting for the bank to confirm.

I too believe they argued re this at lunch and then via the phone calls on way home where things escalated and JM’s fate was sealed.

CM turned his phone off after the final call with JM going off grid for hours when the family went missing, created and deleted a cheque from their home made payable to yours truly which he then replicates from his own device the following night and has no friggin alibi. As you Americans say, you do the math!
 
Yeah, I think JM strongly suspected it was Chase who’d helped himself to money via QB but he probs didn’t have all the evidence yet having only just discovered the deception. JM was probs waiting for the bank to confirm.

I too believe they argued re this at lunch and then via the phone calls on way home where things escalated and JM’s fate was sealed.

CM turned his phone off after the final call with JM going off grid for hours when the family went missing, created and deleted a cheque from their home made payable to yours truly which he then replicates from his own device the following night and has no friggin alibi. As you Americans say, you do the math!

There are two key points here

1. Joey was on the road - so whether he yet discovered the deletion of cheques until he got home on his desktop is debatable IMO

2. The bank certainly had not yet produced the actual fraudulent cheque for him. But they would have in time. The cheques are stored and Joey could have requested to see it.
 
Joseph was the type of person who wouldn't have you arrested if you wronged him. He would think about Cathy and her kids before Chase would.
Exactly. After reading PM's book, he mentions that CJ actually has *5* kids. JM had already supported them, while CM was in jail. He definitely was the type of guy, who may have felt somewhat responsible, if CM was arrested yet again (which wasn't going to be another month or so, in jail) and probably would've ended up footing the bills, AGAIN.
 
Can you tell me where in Merritt's interview with Dugal/Fiske that he was asked? I couldn't find it. I would like to know when he (and Jarvis) was first asked and what they said. Det. Bachman testified in PH about what CJ said, but he wouldn't have talked to her until after November 2013, so 4 years later??? I want to see what was said early on, if anything, or if anyone even asked.

I'd be more than happy to try to find it. May not be an immediate response as I'm at work and they have a lot of sites blocked.
 
Didn't it come out after he and DK had a big blowout Joey ended up giving him a car?
Yeah an old BMW. But it was part of his 'payoff'. That's another one. In Joseph's email to Paul about DK, he praised him as much as he vilified him. Just an observation.

On that note, Joseph was not about to totally sever ties with Dan. They were to launch another company, Water Feature Supply. That was part of the package Patrick Maloy bought.
 
Exactly. After reading PM's book, he mentions that CJ actually has *5* kids. JM had already supported them, while CM was in jail. He definitely was the type of guy, who may have felt somewhat responsible, if CM was arrested yet again (which wasn't going to be another month or so, in jail) and probably would've ended up footing the bills, AGAIN.
It states 5 kids?? Totally not true, 3 kids. Either a misprint or he's mistaken.
 
Happy to get down in the weeds on DNA but an article claiming Holtzclaw is innocent is perhaps not a strong place to start

Then Amanda Knox?

Knox was charged on far more than potential touch transfer DNA.

Of course it is theoretically possible that touch transfer can happen, but you are moving to an assertion that it happened in this case....

I think arguments in this space are better based on peer reviewed science

I don't care who they used as an example. Regardless of what your opinion is, is Knox in jail? Nope, and it was part of her defense.

I didn't move to assert anything, the DEFENSE did.

There is way more information than just the links I shared, I did say I only clicked the first 3 that came up. I have read about transfer DNA before this, this not a new phenomenon, it isn't "made up" science. JMO
 
Something I discovered in my travels in true crime is that articles and documentaries about cases routinely contain incredible inaccuracies. Especially where forensics are concerned.

Pistorius and Knox are 2 such cases.

it is critical to stick to primary sources, rather than what an expert or attorney or even more laughably, the defence PR team, is claiming in the media

So we should only stick to the prosecution narrative? Even if their narrative and theory doesn't fit either? I mean... we still have posters here that question that they even met at Chik-Fil-A. Question if Joey even made it home that day... question whether they were even killed in that home. Primary sources... do you mean the FACTS? lol Because I would love to stick to the facts... there is so much rumour in this case it's hard to weed through what is fact or fiction.
 
When his cell phone pings at a site in the desert where the people he is suspected of murdering are buried.

Do you know anything about these two phone calls Maline is talking about? Looking forward to learning more about it. Might have to wait for the defense on this. Can’t find any info related to it.

Snip

Authorities said that after the family disappeared, Merritt's cellphone was traced to the area near the gravesites and to a call seeking to close out McStay's QuickBooks account for his water features business.

But Maline argued that two other phone calls that placed Merritt away from the burial site weren't considered.

Man Consumed With Greed Killed Business Partner And His Entire Family With Sledgehammer, Prosecutors Allege
 
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