CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #7

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FWIW, I recall in one of the documentaries (I think produced after CM was arrested) Dugal said he confirmed they were at Chick Filet. Don’t remember if he said how it was confirmed.

Documentary/crime news commentary by LE doesn't always mean the truth. That was quite evident in the Arias case where Det. Flores was interviewed by a weekly TV syndicated program. LE doesn't HAVE to be truthful anywhere except under oath.
 
Re: due process and presumption of innocence....
Just seeing this now... and the snip of the post you replied to...

from oceanblueeyes:
LOL! I think it would be awfully hard to tell LE in great detail what movie he was watching on TV when he didnt even have a TV. LOL

3 mentions of him not even being able to watch a movie because he didn't have a TV in just the last 2 pages. So opinions of him being a liar are based off of false information IMO. And don't get me wrong, there are many other things that can be picked out that may make him out to be a liar, but are you all sure?

3 mentions of him not even being able to watch a movie because he didn't have a TV in just the last 2 pages. So opinions of him being a liar are based off of false information IMO. And don't get me wrong, there are many other things that can be picked out that may make him out to be a liar, but are you all sure?

Am I sure that CM is a liar?

I am sure that's one of the most accurate words to describe him, yes.
 
If the prosecution have concrete evidence that Chase had lunch with Joey then I want to see the evidence of that. I also want a explanation for the fact that they had a two hour lunch and as soon as that lunch ends Joey is ringing Chase up again.

It doesn’t add up.

The call logs support Chase's version of what happened. It's not absolute, but phone pings place the men traveling to that area and pinging all the way back home.

I don't know why those two talked as much as they did, but phone records spanning three months prior to the murders have them speaking as many as 30 times in one day. Not sure we have to understand the way they worked together, only that phone records show that this is how they worked together.
 
People forget what they were doing on a given night sometimes. There has to be something more than that he just forgot whether he was watching cable or a dvd. And again, none of this ties Chase directly to the murder of four people. If we were all convicted on mistakes in memory the prisons would be overflowing more than they already are.

Where is the evidence that ties Merritt to the act of murder?

When his cell phone pings at a site in the desert where the people he is suspected of murdering are buried.
 
Iirc he stated "I absolutely confirmed that".

In hindsight I have to take some of the things he's said now. He also stated he he knew their accounts better than his own. Either he's absolutely horrible with accounting. Although, no one knew about the deleted checks until Hanke got into the QB.


Thank you. Yes, that’s exactly what I recall.
 
Remember the days when DNA was proof of an individual touching something, physically being somewhere, physically interacting with someone or something?
Yeah, good times........be careful who you shake hands with..........said no forensic expert I've ever heard say on the stand.

I disagree.

How Forensic DNA Evidence Can Lead to Wrongful Convictions | JSTOR Daily

Then there’s the uncomfortable and inconvenient truth that any of us could have DNA present at a crime scene—even if we were never there. Moreover, DNA recovered at a crime scene could have been deposited there at a time other than when the crime took place. Someone could have visited beforehand or stumbled upon the scene afterward. Alternatively, their DNA could have arrived via a process called secondary transfer, where their DNA was transferred to someone else, who carried it to the scene.

Additionally, DNA technology is becoming more and more sensitive, but this is a double-edged sword. On one hand, usable DNA evidence is more likely to be detected than ever before. On the other hand, contamination DNA and DNA that arrived by secondary transfer is now more likely to be detected, confusing investigations. If legal and judicial personnel aren’t fully trained in how to interpret forensic and DNA evidence, it can result in false leads and miscarriages of justice.


This link came from the above article (a report from forensic scientists) has a bunch of information about transfer DNA, including scenario's and criminal cases where it was found to be transfer DNA. Do a search for "transfer" in the document:

https://senseaboutscience.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/making-sense-of-forensic-genetics.pdf

DNA gets everywhere. Besides the more obvious methods of DNA transfer, including drops of blood or deposits of semen, small amounts of DNA can also find their way onto people, places and objects via droplets of saliva from talking, sneezing, skin cells shed into house dust or by being left on the surfaces that people touch. Given how easily DNA can be transferred, this means your DNA could be in a room even if you weren’t.

If your DNA is found at a location, it could be present because:

(a) You have been there;
(b) You touched an object that was later carried to the location by someone else (eg an item of your clothing);
(c) You encountered a person, who soon after touches something at the location, inadvertently leaving your DNA there (eg you shook hands with them or you both previously touched the same surface).

Scenario: A man is attacked by someone wearing a mask, while walking home from a party. Your DNA is found on the victim’s hands. You were also at the party, and had no direct contact with the victim, but you both poured a glass of wine from the same bottle. This caused your DNA to be transferred to their hands. This is known as secondary transfer.

Real life Example: When local taxi driver David Butler’s DNA was recovered from the fingernails of murdered sex worker Anne Marie Foy, it seemed like an open and shut case. It was presumed that Ms Foy had torn at his skin as he hit and strangled her, before dumping her body in a park near Liverpool city centre in September 2005. The amount of DNA found by police was tiny, but enough to generate a hit against the UK’s DNA database (see next chapter), identifying Mr Butler as the source. He denied ever having met the victim, but even though other evidence was lacking, the DNA evidence was enough to see him charged with murder. However, Mr Butler’s defence team queried precisely how that DNA got onto the victim’s nails. They established that he was sometimes known by the nickname “flaky”, because of the dry skin condition he suffered from, and suggested that perhaps some of his skin cells had transferred to bank notes that were later used to pay Ms Foy — an example of secondary DNA transfer — or they had been transferred to her through other innocent means12. Mr Butler was acquitted.

Framed for Murder By His Own DNA

Framed By Your Own Cells: How DNA Evidence Imprisons The Innocent

Tiny amounts of touch-transferred DNA have placed people at locations they had never visited and implicated people for crimes they did not commit.

These are just from the first 3 links when googling "Transfer DNA wrongful conviction". For anyone that believes it's not real, you really should read the links, or even google it yourself and see just how many links/cases/documents/reports show up. This stuff is pretty scary if you think about it LOL But as the one article stated, with advanced technology and the ability to pick up the DNA, the flip side is they are also able to find transfer DNA.
 
I disagree.

How Forensic DNA Evidence Can Lead to Wrongful Convictions | JSTOR Daily

Then there’s the uncomfortable and inconvenient truth that any of us could have DNA present at a crime scene—even if we were never there. Moreover, DNA recovered at a crime scene could have been deposited there at a time other than when the crime took place. Someone could have visited beforehand or stumbled upon the scene afterward. Alternatively, their DNA could have arrived via a process called secondary transfer, where their DNA was transferred to someone else, who carried it to the scene.

Additionally, DNA technology is becoming more and more sensitive, but this is a double-edged sword. On one hand, usable DNA evidence is more likely to be detected than ever before. On the other hand, contamination DNA and DNA that arrived by secondary transfer is now more likely to be detected, confusing investigations. If legal and judicial personnel aren’t fully trained in how to interpret forensic and DNA evidence, it can result in false leads and miscarriages of justice.


This link came from the above article (a report from forensic scientists) has a bunch of information about transfer DNA, including scenario's and criminal cases where it was found to be transfer DNA. Do a search for "transfer" in the document:

https://senseaboutscience.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/making-sense-of-forensic-genetics.pdf

DNA gets everywhere. Besides the more obvious methods of DNA transfer, including drops of blood or deposits of semen, small amounts of DNA can also find their way onto people, places and objects via droplets of saliva from talking, sneezing, skin cells shed into house dust or by being left on the surfaces that people touch. Given how easily DNA can be transferred, this means your DNA could be in a room even if you weren’t.

If your DNA is found at a location, it could be present because:

(a) You have been there;
(b) You touched an object that was later carried to the location by someone else (eg an item of your clothing);
(c) You encountered a person, who soon after touches something at the location, inadvertently leaving your DNA there (eg you shook hands with them or you both previously touched the same surface).

Scenario: A man is attacked by someone wearing a mask, while walking home from a party. Your DNA is found on the victim’s hands. You were also at the party, and had no direct contact with the victim, but you both poured a glass of wine from the same bottle. This caused your DNA to be transferred to their hands. This is known as secondary transfer.

Real life Example: When local taxi driver David Butler’s DNA was recovered from the fingernails of murdered sex worker Anne Marie Foy, it seemed like an open and shut case. It was presumed that Ms Foy had torn at his skin as he hit and strangled her, before dumping her body in a park near Liverpool city centre in September 2005. The amount of DNA found by police was tiny, but enough to generate a hit against the UK’s DNA database (see next chapter), identifying Mr Butler as the source. He denied ever having met the victim, but even though other evidence was lacking, the DNA evidence was enough to see him charged with murder. However, Mr Butler’s defence team queried precisely how that DNA got onto the victim’s nails. They established that he was sometimes known by the nickname “flaky”, because of the dry skin condition he suffered from, and suggested that perhaps some of his skin cells had transferred to bank notes that were later used to pay Ms Foy — an example of secondary DNA transfer — or they had been transferred to her through other innocent means12. Mr Butler was acquitted.

Framed for Murder By His Own DNA

Framed By Your Own Cells: How DNA Evidence Imprisons The Innocent

Tiny amounts of touch-transferred DNA have placed people at locations they had never visited and implicated people for crimes they did not commit.

These are just from the first 3 links when googling "Transfer DNA wrongful conviction". For anyone that believes it's not real, you really should read the links, or even google it yourself and see just how many links/cases/documents/reports show up. This stuff is pretty scary if you think about it LOL But as the one article stated, with advanced technology and the ability to pick up the DNA, the flip side is they are also able to find transfer DNA.

We are able to test such small amounts of DNA now, that knowing how it got there is becoming increasingly difficult.

In some ways it may have been easier to make a conclusive determination when larger samples of DNA were required to get a profile.
 
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That always seemed suspicious to me too, but McGyver had been trying to reach the McStays to see if they wanted him to come in on Sat or Sun to paint, and he never heard back, and he didn't alert anyone. The brother and mother are told by at least two people that the family is not in contact, and they wait to phone police.

Chase actually has, in a way, the best excuse of anyone for not calling police-he could have been arrested on the spot. There was a bench warrant out for his arrest. What Chase appears to be doing is trying to get someone else to phone the police. And a family member really is the most logical party to do this.

But what was the frequency of McGyver calling JM? Is it as many calls on a daily basis as was stated between JM/CM? CM was so worried about his friend he never placed a call to him after 02/05. His BEST FRIEND supposedly. I love how you fail to see anything suspicious about that.
 
The wife has a habit of calling Chase a lot, if the few different snippets we looked at are any indication. Also, she calls him numerous times earlier on the 4th as well.

We also know that Chase can be just meeting with people when his phone is off, as it was when he met with Carmen Garcia at Metro.

Right, there are patterns, but I have only been able to look at the blurry slow-motion youtube pages LOL The phone being off... When there is no tower information, it can mean 3 things... off/in airplane mode/out of range. There is just no way to know that his phone was actually "off".
 
I think Chase has a good quality defence team but I do wonder if this is an area where he has sold them a hospital pass.

Often one relies on the "it wasn't me" strategy - but the defence has leaned heavily into the DK did it idea

What happens if DK has a decent alibi?

I think jurors often expect the defense to point the finger toward someone else being the murderer, but when they do, the jury also expects the defense to man up, and prove it to them.

By doing so they are telling the jury to let the one who is accused to go free. In doing so they must prove to the jury DK is the one, and forget all the compelling evidence of guilt pointing to no one else but CM.

Will the sudden out of the blue, new witness for the DT do it for them? Imo, not in a million years.

Even if there is wiggle room about DKs alibi, the defense will still have to come up with some kind of good faith based evidence supporting DK was the one.

Just not having a verified alibi, although I absolutely believe he does, will not be enough.

To me it's an affirmative defense strategy that requires the DT to affirm to the jury what they have asserted to be true can be proven by evidence. Just saying so, won't cut it.

After all, it would have to be so evidence weighty, the jury is willing to totally disregard, and completely discount every piece of CE facts they have heard that does not point to DK whatsover, but solely points to the one accused.

Lol! If they fail...then I guess it will become known as the OH CRAP DEFENSE! lol
 
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What am I looking at? lol

It's hard to see clearly in that screenshot, because when I enlarge it it blurs I have a copy I could view more easily). But Chase makes almost the identical series of calls to the same people at nearly the same time he makes those calls the day before (including the same 800 number) when he is supposedly pinging at the graves. The calls are all to his wife and oldest daughter.

I can't see the cell tower list on that screen shot, but I just think it shows that Chase may have been somewhat predictable as to who he called and when. It will be interesting to view a larger section of his phone records.
 
The call logs support Chase's version of what happened. It's not absolute, but phone pings place the men traveling to that area and pinging all the way back home.

I don't know why those two talked as much as they did, but phone records spanning three months prior to the murders have them speaking as many as 30 times in one day. Not sure we have to understand the way they worked together, only that phone records show that this is how they worked together.


I know Joey was there that I have no doubt but I’m not convinced Chase showed up.

He was clearly panicked hence the phone calls to his wife as he knew Joey knew and that was about 1pm I thought?!
 
I know Joey was there that I have no doubt but I’m not convinced Chase showed up.

He was clearly panicked hence the phone calls to his wife as he knew Joey knew and that was about 1pm I thought?!

Hmmm. Interesting. No one has ever suggested this before. What do you think that would mean if true?
 
But he might have confused which night. It's true though, for the night of the murders, it is unclear where he was and exactly what he was doing. But he might have just been running errands. He might have been gambling. I can't produce an alibi for that night either. There has to be more than lack of alibi, the DA has to tie Chase to the crime, at that house.

Could you not produce an alibi for that night if it was just a week or two after that night, when your best friend disappeared? Or you can't produce an alibi for that night now almost 10 years later?
 
It's hard to see clearly in that screenshot, because when I enlarge it it blurs I have a copy I could view more easily). But Chase makes almost the identical series of calls to the same people at nearly the same time he makes those calls the day before (including the same 800 number) when he is supposedly pinging at the graves. The calls are all to his wife and oldest daughter.

I can't see the cell tower list on that screen shot, but I just think it shows that Chase may have been somewhat predictable as to who he called and when. It will be interesting to view a larger section of his phone records.

I have noticed a few other patterns too, but would like to see more.

Here is another shot of the 3rd. He has 3 calls that go to VM and don't have tower information. I wonder what the explanation for that is?
 

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