Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #11

[JDG]

I remember reading in the press that Barry came after the contractor who built the house with a massive law suit because of all the structural problems. Maybe some of them were never resolved, and that could be why Honey wanted a new house. That kind of thing would also make it hard to sell. Some properties with problems like that are more valuable if the house is removed. Lots in that area must be worth a fortune. IMO

I'm sure they fixed any/all structural deficiencies in order to live there for 30 years.

There is also 'coverage' for new builds, which it was when they moved in. That coverage used to be good for seven years of faults.

I guarantee there's nothing 'structurally' wrong or defects now.

All I'm saying is that the kids want it down for emotional reasons, AFAIK it has not had a 'trial' sale to see what it would sell for now.

It is part of the estate, their house, their decision.

 

[dotr]

Cross posting..
Birth Control Pills recalled by Apotex Corp as they may not prevent pregnancy

 

[deugirtni]

Wouldn't the property still be sold at undervalue, considering it is still the location of a gruesome double murder - some people have weird superstitions about that kind of thing, and it may continue to affect the price, imho. I would have thought they would net more for the property if they left it standing and allowed the new purchaser to decide whether to demolish or not. My guess is that they don't want people snooping, so just demolish and get rid of that possibility. Just my thoughts.
At the same time, it scares me to think it will be completely gone - even before, it seems, that any resolution of this case is seen.. and I think about, what if, for whatever currently-unknown reason, they (LE?) may wish to go back in, to check something. One would have to assume that after holding the house for so long before releasing it back to the family, that LE couldn't possibly have missed something, but even after autopsies have been done sometimes they end up exhuming bodies. I think if it were me (which obviously it isn't), I would want to leave it until this was resolved. It's not like the fam can't afford to carry the costs until then.

 

[JDG]

The argument for tearing it down is that they'll only get land value.

Perhaps if they tried selling it, they might get more than land value whereas once its demolished, they will def. only get land value.

Ergo, its being demolished for emotional/non financial/personal reasons.

I share deugirtnis' concerns as well.

 

[deugirtni]

They (the kids) have been so intensely private about all of this.. I really think that is the reason they just want it gone, so it won't be a public feeding frenzy of people going through the 'murder house', and possibly starting online/public discussion about what people saw/what people think, etc. It would save them a ton of money to just sell it 'as is' right now, for just the cost of the lot alone (or even less), since then they wouldn't have to worry about the demolition/waste charges, permits, etc. But to say it pains them to see it just sitting empty, I imagine it's costing quite a bit just to keep it standing, considering I'll bet property taxes and utilities might be nothing to sneeze at.

If it were me though, I'd feel just terrible if it turned out in the end that police should've checked something in the home which they didn't check, and by then it was too late because the house was demolished. I just couldn't do it, even though I may not want the memory by way of seeing the home still standing - I'd want to make sure that no possible evidence would be demolished, until the murderer(s) are brought to justice. Presumably, there would be lots of happy memories for the kids in that home as well, since the couple had owned the home for years, while the kids were still younger and living at home... and it's not like they were living there at the time and witnessed their parents bodies in the home, etc. jmo though,

 

[ldlager]

They (the kids) have been so intensely private about all of this.. I really think that is the reason they just want it gone, so it won't be a public feeding frenzy of people going through the 'murder house', and possibly starting online/public discussion about what people saw/what people think, etc. It would save them a ton of money to just sell it 'as is' right now, for just the cost of the lot alone (or even less), since then they wouldn't have to worry about the demolition/waste charges, permits, etc. But to say it pains them to see it just sitting empty, I imagine it's costing quite a bit just to keep it standing, considering I'll bet property taxes and utilities might be nothing to sneeze at.

If it were me though, I'd feel just terrible if it turned out in the end that police should've checked something in the home which they didn't check, and by then it was too late because the house was demolished. I just couldn't do it, even though I may not want the memory by way of seeing the home still standing - I'd want to make sure that no possible evidence would be demolished, until the murderer(s) are brought to justice. Presumably, there would be lots of happy memories for the kids in that home as well, since the couple had owned the home for years, while the kids were still younger and living at home... and it's not like they were living there at the time and witnessed their parents bodies in the home, etc. jmo though,

I understand the granting of a demolition permit is the responsibility of the municipality. But it will be most interesting to see if the TPS or perhaps the crown initiates legal action to delay or prevent the demolition. If so, this could perhaps indicate that they are still investigating and perhaps wanting to preserve the house for future investigation or examination. Technology changes rapidly, and it is possible that emerging new processes of forensic examination could yield additional or new clues. It is also possible that LE or the crown might have other reasons to oppose a demolition at this time. I presume that the children do not need the money from the sale at this point.

 

[MistyWaters]

I understand the granting of a demolition permit is the responsibility of the municipality. But it will be most interesting to see if the TPS or perhaps the crown initiates legal action to delay or prevent the demolition. If so, this could perhaps indicate that they are still investigating and perhaps wanting to preserve the house for future investigation or examination. Technology changes rapidly, and it is possible that emerging new processes of forensic examination could yield additional or new clues. It is also possible that LE or the crown might have other reasons to oppose a demolition at this time. I presume that the children do not need the money from the sale at this point.

Once LE release a crime scene, they’re done with it. If six weeks at the onset wasn’t adequate to gather all necessary evidence plus photograph and video record all pertinent physical surroundings, if going back a year or two later was required any hope of successful prosecution would be dismal because the crime scene hasn’t been preserved nor was their reason for it to be. JMO

 

[dotr]

Curious to know if artwork was still present in the home at the time of the murders and if so, hoping and assuming prints were taken from them too. imo.

 

[casesensitive]

Once LE release a crime scene, they’re done with it. If six weeks at the onset wasn’t adequate to gather all necessary evidence plus photograph and video record all pertinent physical surroundings, if going back a year or two later was required any hope of successful prosecution would be dismal because the crime scene hasn’t been preserved nor was their reason for it to be. JMO

I totally agree, and since the "murder house" haunts the Sherman kids, who are we to question their feelings and decision to raze the house? jmo

 

[JDG]

A demolition permit might also let them off the hook for the property taxes that came out recently or greatly reduce the property taxes.

No house, no bathrooms, taps, sewer services etc.

 

[MistyWaters]

I totally agree, and since the "murder house" haunts the Sherman kids, who are we to question their feelings and decision to raze the house? jmo

Yeah, I can’t begin to imagine what it must be like to have a very visual reminder of the location of where one’s parents were violently murdered in the very same childhood home the children grew up in, the same home where they all celebrated special occasions together (mentioned various times how Honey loved entertaining). I sure can’t blame them for wanting it demolished whatsoever, imo it’s the respectful thing to do. If I were in their shoes, I’d view that it has come to resemble a shrine of tragedy and I doubt any home buyer in the multi million dollar range would see it any differently. In the prime location residential housing market it’s the lot that draws the appeal, not a preowned physical structure.

And if this residence was put back on the market I’m very certain it would attract attention mainly for the lurid appeal and speculation value. DM would probably be the first with an “Exclusive inside look at the Sherman death scene!!!” and I’m quite certain the family has had their fill of that sort of thing already.

 

[ldlager]

Once LE release a crime scene, they’re done with it. If six weeks at the onset wasn’t adequate to gather all necessary evidence plus photograph and video record all pertinent physical surroundings, if going back a year or two later was required any hope of successful prosecution would be dismal because the crime scene hasn’t been preserved nor was their reason for it to be. JMO

I get it, I’m just curious to See what happens.

 

[human]

The scene has not been monitored so there is no evidence that could be used.

The money they have is unfathomable. One billion is 1000 million.

That is one billion. Who knows how much they got

 

[Tighthead]

A demolition permit might also let them off the hook for the property taxes that came out recently or greatly reduce the property taxes.

No house, no bathrooms, taps, sewer services etc.

Any savings in that regard will be more offset by the costs of demolition, disposal and clean up.

 

[ldlager]

http://media.houssmax.ca/201711/29/5a1f32afd3797.pdf

I had a look at the house floor plan (yet again), and 2 things struck me that I had never really noticed before:
1) I hadn’t fully realized how much of the basement is essentially under the back and side lawns vs. Under the house. This can be seen by comparing the location of the spiral staircase of in the master bedroom and main floor (it’s at the very back left of the house) vs. The basement, where it appears in the middle of the house. So the whole pool and sauna area is essentially under the back lawn. The floor plan illustrates how isolated the pool area is from the rest of the house, and that the only access to the pool area is down the long hallway. Someone committing murder and/or hanging the bodies in that area would certainly expose themselves to not hearing if someone entered the house on the main floor. This points me to wondering about multiple assailants, perhaps with walkie talkie communications between them to warn the one(s) in the pool about someone approaching the house on the main floor.

2) Based on my previous examination of the floor plan I had concluded that the only exit points from the basement were through the garage; or up the internal stairways to the main floor. However, if you look closely at the floor plan there appears to be another entrance- an entrance/exit door beside the spiral staircase in the basement. I had previously missed that, and this would obviously be a relatively secluded place to access and exit the house - from the side yard and probably via an outdoor stairway dug to the basement. Often side yards are not well lit and are sheltered by vegetation, etc.

Does anyone else think that doorway is an external doorway? It looks that way to me, and I don’t recall anyone ever posting about it before.

 

[ldlager]

http://media.houssmax.ca/201711/29/5a1f32afd3797.pdf

I had a look at the house floor plan (yet again), and 2 things struck me that I had never really noticed before:
1) I hadn’t fully realized how much of the basement is essentially under the back and side lawns vs. Under the house. This can be seen by comparing the location of the spiral staircase of in the master bedroom and main floor (it’s at the very back left of the house) vs. The basement, where it appears in the middle of the house. So the whole pool and sauna area is essentially under the back lawn. The floor plan illustrates how isolated the pool area is from the rest of the house, and that the only access to the pool area is down the long hallway. Someone committing murder and/or hanging the bodies in that area would certainly expose themselves to not hearing if someone entered the house on the main floor. This points me to wondering about multiple assailants, perhaps with walkie talkie communications between them to warn the one(s) in the pool about someone approaching the house on the main floor.

2) Based on my previous examination of the floor plan I had concluded that the only exit points from the basement were through the garage; or up the internal stairways to the main floor. However, if you look closely at the floor plan there appears to be another entrance- an entrance/exit door beside the spiral staircase in the basement. I had previously missed that, and this would obviously be a relatively secluded place to access and exit the house - from the side yard and probably via an outdoor stairway dug to the basement. Often side yards are not well lit and are sheltered by vegetation, etc.

Does anyone else think that doorway is an external doorway? It looks that way to me, and I don’t recall anyone ever posting about it before.

The door I am referring to is located between the spiral staircase and the storage room in the basement

 

[dotr]

The door I am referring to is located between the spiral staircase and the storage room in the basement

MeasureGuy



Building of Sherman’s North York dream home was a ‘disaster’ that led to litigation

 

[deugirtni]

http://media.houssmax.ca/201711/29/5a1f32afd3797.pdf

I had a look at the house floor plan (yet again), and 2 things struck me that I had never really noticed before:
1) I hadn’t fully realized how much of the basement is essentially under the back and side lawns vs. Under the house. This can be seen by comparing the location of the spiral staircase of in the master bedroom and main floor (it’s at the very back left of the house) vs. The basement, where it appears in the middle of the house. So the whole pool and sauna area is essentially under the back lawn. The floor plan illustrates how isolated the pool area is from the rest of the house, and that the only access to the pool area is down the long hallway. Someone committing murder and/or hanging the bodies in that area would certainly expose themselves to not hearing if someone entered the house on the main floor. This points me to wondering about multiple assailants, perhaps with walkie talkie communications between them to warn the one(s) in the pool about someone approaching the house on the main floor.

2) Based on my previous examination of the floor plan I had concluded that the only exit points from the basement were through the garage; or up the internal stairways to the main floor. However, if you look closely at the floor plan there appears to be another entrance- an entrance/exit door beside the spiral staircase in the basement. I had previously missed that, and this would obviously be a relatively secluded place to access and exit the house - from the side yard and probably via an outdoor stairway dug to the basement. Often side yards are not well lit and are sheltered by vegetation, etc.

Does anyone else think that doorway is an external doorway? It looks that way to me, and I don’t recall anyone ever posting about it before.

Things are so deceiving too, ie in the floorplans they look like they're not that large.. but when you compare areas to the photos, it takes on new perspective. (look at the curved exterior balcony on the floorplan as compared to the photo of same from the exterior, as one example.) It is interesting to think that IF H had been accosted and attacked at the front door entrance as some have speculated (I believe due to a news story)... and ended up way at the point the very furthest away, down in the basement and way to the one side of the home.. somehow getting her down the stairs.. through doorways and hallways.. and all the way at the other end of the pool.. I'd say B was in fantastic shape to have pulled that off. Not to mention that *if* B had done this, he drove into the underground parking garage, made his way upstairs, hunted her down, chased her to the front door, and then went all the way back down there again to the furthest point away. Incredible! From photos, I get the impression that B is overweight, and so is H.. combined with their ages.. combined with their health issues.. even more astounding.

Sure seems to make more sense to think that *if* H was assaulted at the front door, it was because she had greeted someone known to her at the door at some point after she'd arrived home, assaulted, dragged/carried downstairs by someone in much better shape, left her lying on the poolroom floor bleeding while hiding in wait for B to come home, and accosted him as he exited the garage to that same basement level.

And yes, I had noticed that, what appears to be 'little' single exterior door, right there. Convenient. (I had been, at the time, trying to count up the some 9 entrances that I believe it was Greenspan mentioned.)

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I didn’t realize that the pool area was underground either. I think it was Warmington that pointed out that the area is ‘separate’ from the house.

Honey’s office at some point was close to the pool:

She led me down a hall beside a glassed-in swimming pool. The house had an overstuffed 1980s look, with lots of leather, glossy stone floors and a spiral staircase. We sat across from each other in the den, close to her workstation piled high with papers.

How Barry Sherman built his multibillion-dollar fortune

If she met with the architect, I would expect her to have left and returned with plans or notes in some form. The logical place to place them upon returning home would be her office.

(The home was for sale, she wouldn’t leave them out, IMO).

OT- but I understand the Sherman children wishing to demolish the home. But I also agree with people who worry that something could be lost in destroying the crime scene.

My guess is they’ve fully captured the scene and can create it again if needed for a future trial.

LE were searching for something in the sewers and with metal detectors. Maybe what they were searching for is still in the home.

(If it’s ‘the Butler did it’-type of crime. Someone with regular access to the home who expected to gain access after the murders.)

I’m thinking of Paul Bernardo and how well he managed to hide the tapes LE were searching for.

Ligatures used to restrain and possibly kill them may be unaccounted for. An earring was found on the driveway and the Star reported that Honey’s will was missing.

Something might turn up during the demolition.

 

[deugirtni]

The door I am referring to is located between the spiral staircase and the storage room in the basement

Here is what I believe to be that exterior entrance/exit from the basement, and the link it came from:



Sherman family wants to demolish home where billionaire couple found dead