Found Deceased UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #15 *ARREST*

[Skigh]

I too thank Woollybear for an excellent summary and others for their well thought outand written responses to the different theories..

In theory 2,do people think he did take. Libby to the park and something happened there and then he returned her to the car and took her to a different location?
Or did he drive straight there ,perhaps just parking at the park to think through where to go next.
If Libby had been in the boot or back seat I think there would be DNA evidence.
Perhaps when Libby realised he was not going to her home she managed to get out of the car and ran into the park to get away from him.After catching her he dragged her back to the car.
Would it her possible for him to drive any distance from the park without being seen on cctv?

 

[Enquirer-2019]

I too thank Woollybear for an excellent summary and others for their well thought outand written responses to the different theories..

In theory 2,do people think he did take. Libby to the park and something happened there and then he returned her to the car and took her to a different location?
Or did he drive straight there ,perhaps just parking at the park to think through where to go next.
If Libby had been in the boot or back seat I think there would be DNA evidence.
Perhaps when Libby realised he was not going to her home she managed to get out of the car and ran into the park to get away from him.After catching her he dragged her back to the car.
Would it her possible for him to drive any distance from the park without being seen on cctv?

My own thinking regarding Theory 2... how I've reasoned throughout....being he did not even go to the park, but instead he drove her elsewhere.

I am sceptical of my own reasoning I do admit, because of all the focus on the park from LE, it just seemed the most likely to me early on in the case. At this stage, mainly because of where her body was later discovered, and due to potential witnesses in the park (although very cold and the late time reduces that prospect somewhat) I am still finding it hard to steer away from my initial reasoning.

 

[Enquirer-2019]

Could the screams which were heard in 2 different locations, possibly have been Libby pulling down the car window and screaming, and then potentially subdued to stop further screams on route to the car's destination (wherever that ended up being)?

Just a random thought...

Edited to add.. If I recall correctly (I may be wrong here) did a witness to one set of screams mention - ' It sounded as if they were moving..'

 

[Cherwell]

Encountering a second perp in a freezing cold empty park far less likely. I'd say most peoplr, even dealers, would avoid that location in those circumstances.

A hypothetical second person could have been encountered elsewhere than the park.

 

[Crazy Mama]

There must have been something that made the police say potential homicide after she was recovered.
If Libby had run away and fallen into the river they surely not have been able to say that,especially as she had been drinking.

She *could* have had her hands tied or been gagged, just for examples, which would most likely make it a homicide investigation.

 

[Crazy Mama]

If there was a stabbing for instance, the weapon could still have been in the body.

 

[JosieJo]

Would they not say a murder enquiry if such clear evidence of foul play ? I've not really heard the police use the word homicide enquiry before on any other cases I've followed? Its usually a murder enquiry

 

[cluciano63]

Would they not say a murder enquiry if such clear evidence of foul play ? I've not really heard the police use the word homicide enquiry before on any other cases I've followed? Its usually a murder enquiry

Not sure. Technically they are different, as in homicide means death as a result of another person, possibly indirectly such as via a car accident, while murder means intentional, but not sure they break it down as such in these stages? Anyway jmo.

To add...I DO think she was abducted and murdered. But am unsure as to what can be proven. Can LE prove either? They maybe believe she got into P’s car. They probably believe she did not get out of it on her own to go on her way. But what can they prove? That is where I am stuck/worried. If P’s car showed no evidence of a crime, and her body tells them little or nothing, I fear it could be a struggle to walk a jury, or even prosecutor, through an entire scenario based all on what is believed to have happened, if no evidence proves any part of it. Imo

I don’t think there would be a delay in charging him if they already had evidence tying him to killing her. All jmo

 

[Newthoughts]

Would they not say a murder enquiry if such clear evidence of foul play ? I've not really heard the police use the word homicide enquiry before on any other cases I've followed? Its usually a murder enquiry

This is the first of these I've followed so I'm not sure of terminology. I've heard the police day they were treating deaths as suspicious in the past.

Would they say murder before charging?

For his trial for unrelated offences the police have asked for a facilities to show CCTV.

Before her body was found they also said they were examining hours of CCTV footage which couldn't be released for operational reasons. So I wondered if it were possible that the murder or manslaughter charge hangs on what the perpetrator has done before, during and after the event?

 

[bluesntwos]

hi thought id post this tribute from bankside gallery painted on a derelict house in east hull in memory of libby

 

[Newthoughts]

I too thank Woollybear for an excellent summary and others for their well thought outand written responses to the different theories..

In theory 2,do people think he did take. Libby to the park and something happened there and then he returned her to the car and took her to a different location?
Or did he drive straight there ,perhaps just parking at the park to think through where to go next.
If Libby had been in the boot or back seat I think there would be DNA evidence.
Perhaps when Libby realised he was not going to her home she managed to get out of the car and ran into the park to get away from him.After catching her he dragged her back to the car.
Would it her possible for him to drive any distance from the park without being seen on cctv?

The police have concentrated on a very small area around the park so I guess they think something significant happened there. I think she'd have been found earlier if he'd put her into the River Hull there.

There were 5 days between Libby disappearing and PR being arrested so if it was him he'd have had time to clean the car. His sister's comments to MSM suggest he's admitted she was in his car.

I don't know how far he'd get to Paull without being picked up by CCTV but I think it was after. We don't know what LE got from his car.

 

[JosieJo]

This is the first of these I've followed so I'm not sure of terminology. I've heard the police day they were treating deaths as suspicious in the past.

Would they say murder before charging?

For his trial for unrelated offences the police have asked for a facilities to show CCTV.

Before her body was found they also said they were examining hours of CCTV footage which couldn't be released for operational reasons. So I wondered if it were possible that the murder or manslaughter charge hangs on what the perpetrator has done before, during and after the event?

Yes they almost always declare a murder investigation in such cases

For example Jo Yeates ..they launched a murder enquiry straight after the PM ..they also almost state cause of death at the opening of an inquest

 

[Hatfield]

If there was a stabbing for instance, the weapon could still have been in the body.

Yes or the bones themselves like the rib bones may show signs of stabbing or slashing with a foreign object.

Like if serrated edge marks exist on a bone gash it would imply a serrated knife wound.

Even in cases like "Otzi" who died over 3000 years ago in the Alps, they were able to determine he was murdered by looking at the bone damage and other evidence found on and in the body.

"In 2001, X-rays and a CT scan revealed that Ötzi had an arrowhead lodged in his left shoulder when he died[65] and a matching small tear on his coat.[66] The discovery of the arrowhead prompted researchers to theorize Ötzi died of blood loss from the wound, which would probably have been fatal even if modern medical techniques had been available.[67] Further research found that the arrow's shaft had been removed before death, and close examination of the body found bruises and cuts to the hands, wrists and chest and cerebral trauma indicative of a blow to the head. One of the cuts was to the base of his thumb that reached down to the bone but had no time to heal before his death. Currently, it is believed that Ötzi bled to death after the arrow shattered the scapula and damaged nerves and blood vessels before lodging near the lung."

Ötzi - Wikipedia

 

[Hatfield]

Not sure. Technically they are different, as in homicide means death as a result of another person, possibly indirectly such as via a car accident, while murder means intentional, but not sure they break it down as such in these stages? Anyway jmo.

To add...I DO think she was abducted and murdered. But am unsure as to what can be proven. Can LE prove either? They maybe believe she got into P’s car. They probably believe she did not get out of it on her own to go on her way. But what can they prove? That is where I am stuck/worried. If P’s car showed no evidence of a crime, and her body tells them little or nothing, I fear it could be a struggle to walk a jury, or even prosecutor, through an entire scenario based all on what is believed to have happened, if no evidence proves any part of it. Imo

I don’t think there would be a delay in charging him if they already had evidence tying him to killing her. All jmo

JMO
I agree that this case is turning out to be a tough one for LE to try to get enough evidence for solid charges.

If PR was responsible then he either did an amazing job of cleaning up his vehicle or there are a couple other options which could explain the lack of evidence in his vehicle.

He may have contacted someone he could trust like a close relative or close friend to help him get rid of the body and a different vehicle may have been used to transport her.

Or maybe PR borrowed another vehicle himself. Like if a work friend had a work vehicle that neither actually owned, then maybe PR talked a friend into letting him borrow the work vehicle. That way, neither the friend/relative nor PR have their personal vehicle transporting the body. The work vehicle would have all the evidence in it and nobody would be the wiser.

I hope LE is making good headway behind the scenes and that we are just not aware of how far along they have come evidence wise.

 

[Miss_French]

Could the screams which were heard in 2 different locations, possibly have been Libby pulling down the car window and screaming, and then potentially subdued to stop further screams on route to the car's destination (wherever that ended up being)?

Just a random thought...

Edited to add.. If I recall correctly (I may be wrong here) did a witness to one set of screams mention - ' It sounded as if they were moving..'

The second set of screams were Heathcote St, so I doubt someone would (a) drive with a potentially screaming passenger (b) into a road on a housing estate that doesn't really go anywhere.

 

[Enquirer-2019]

Yes they almost always declare a murder investigation in such cases

For example Jo Yeates ..they launched a murder enquiry straight after the PM ..they also almost state cause of death at the opening of an inquest

However, could it more simply be due to the decomposition of the body in this particular case, is the factor preventing an early clarification of (murder or manslaughter), which could come later after the final pathology report (which should include the last of the forensic results also) is submitted to the coroners office and police?

 

[Enquirer-2019]

The second set of screams were Heathcote St, so I doubt someone would (a) drive with a potentially screaming passenger (b) into a road on a housing estate that doesn't really go anywhere.

I was thinking more a case of (a) Libby spontaneously opened the window, so he wouldn't have known in advance (b) due to sound travel, it may be hard to pinpoint an exact source/location of the screams.

 

[JosieJo]

However, could it more simply be due to the decomposition of the body in this particular case, is the factor preventing an early clarification of (murder or manslaughter), which could come later after the final pathology report (which should include the last of the forensic results also) is submitted to the coroners office and police?

Yes it could be imo

 

[Newthoughts]

The second set of screams were Heathcote St, so I doubt someone would (a) drive with a potentially screaming passenger (b) into a road on a housing estate that doesn't really go anywhere.

I can't see both of those sets of screams being relevant. I think it's one or the other.

The screams from the park were the ones that sounded like they moving I think. Could be a car or someone being dragged. Don't think you'd scream whilst running

 

[Little Nicki]

I've looked back to try and find the relevant post mentioning a location in Paull as a potential area of interest. Is it the car park pictured below?

If so I would like to add that I have been there a few times on an evening with a friend (probably about 5years ago now), when looking for a uhhhh 'quiet spot' for some uhhh "car fun' haha. Anyway, my point is, that it was rarely quiet there. Most often 1 or 2 fishing, sometimes boy racers having little car meets and possibly other 'couples' looking for some time out. I was also told a while later that it was a known 'dogging spot' lol, which would fit perfectly with PRs voyeuristic ways - and very likely a site he knew well.