Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #101

[rainwaterstill]

That's very interesting. They want to know where he is NOW.

That was my first thought also-they want to know current whereabouts.

I have been hesitant in throwing my next thought out there for discussion. In Nov-Dec 201, thousands of convicted felons were released from Cali prisons. We can "what if" until the cows come home, but it occurred to me what if the killer had spent his teen or young adult summers in Delphi, moved to Cali as an adult, was imprisoned /released in Cali, and then travelled back to Delphi a few months after release. Maybe to see if any of his old buddies were still around East Carroll County or a surrounding county. Delphi is not exactly on most people's lists as a hot-spot tourist destination. I do not mean that in a negative way- for tourists to Indiana, visiting Brown County for the fall foliage, watching the Indy 500 in person would be more likely activities.

 

[Tiger Stripes]

It may not be today. But the LE will nail him. And even if it is not convincing to the court, and he walks a free man, I doubt that he will ever walk too far, with what they have on him, and what the world will know. I think his situation is pretty miserable. I also think he lost the window of opportunity to confess, and that alone could have mitigated his circumstances.

He is a very shallow version of Ted Bundy. Ted was horrible, but he had a personality. And, he is not taunting LE, he is scared.

I think if the LE plays its cards right, everyone will be convinced. I wish LE luck.

They may not have everything, but they have enough.

So what would everyone here think may be the suspect's "window of opportunity to confess"? And -- just how would A/L's families feel, were they to hear that the suspect (once brought in, of course -- MOO) were offered a plea bargain?

 

[Tiger Stripes]

That was my first thought also-they want to know current whereabouts.

I have been hesitant in throwing my next thought out there for discussion. In Nov-Dec 201, thousands of convicted felons were released from Cali prisons. We can "what if" until the cows come home, but it occurred to me what if the killer had spent his teen or young adult summers in Delphi, moved to Cali as an adult, was imprisoned /released in Cali, and then travelled back to Delphi a few months after release. Maybe to see if any of his old buddies were still around East Carroll County or a surrounding county. Delphi is not exactly on most people's lists as a hot-spot tourist destination. I do not mean that in a negative way- for tourists to Indiana, visiting Brown County for the fall foliage, watching the Indy 500 in person would be more likely activities.

I still tend to think that he's local. Was local, and still is -- and that perhaps obtaining the car/info re: the car's present location is key to being the proverbial "last piece of the puzzle" in nailing the case closed.

 

[MDATCA]

I find that intriguing, @Wells. Thinking out-loud here...could the suspect be:

a. "hiding in plain sight" in town (i. e., in Delphi, or a nearby Indiana town, living/working there -- say, over in West Lafayette, or south of Delphi in the Indy area, or in Bloomington)?

b. "hiding in plain sight", but...having changed various aspects of his appearance so as to not look anything/as much like the April 22nd PC sketch?

c. "hiding in plain sight", but...having, hmm, mysteriously left town/the area for a prolonged period of time (i. e., working as a summer camp counselor at a scouting camp or at a church camp [this, if the suspect might be in college or grad school, for example], working somewhere where nooo one has heard about the A/L case or Delphi would ever think to bring it up to him in conversation, etc. (say, helping out as a community volunteer or working at a summer job/intern on the East coast or the West cost)?

Has one of the key suspects (whomever any of these individuals may be) vacated their residence -- with no one (other than their immediate, and given-to-silence, relatives) knowing where they went?

d. "hiding in plain sight" (at least still during the school year, when the April 22nd PC was held), but... could the individual have not just "left town/a nearby community", but left... the country, for a summer "break"? Summer is a popular time for many college students to travel overseas, stay in hostels, etc. In another country, a potential POI could completely become "invisible" -- and would definitely be able to avoid the many people in the immediate vicinity of Delphi/surrounding communities who might instantly view him as looking like the April 22nd PC sketch.

e. "hiding in plain sight"... maybe having chosen to stay on campus for the next 3-4 months (if indeed the suspect is a college student), working in a campus office where, again, nooo one might eyeball him or view him as anyone other than one of the many thousands of college students who work on campus during the summer vacation period. "Ordinary Joe", so to speak -- and not "are you the one who killed those girls?" (Think of how being on the receiving end of odd looks and questions must surely wear on an individual...or -- would it, if the person had just "erased" all thoughts from their conscience?)

One of these are probably spot on. My reasoning for agreeing is if he were doing day to day things in the immediate area one of the people who saw him would recognize him. In all this time FSG or CE has crossed paths with him in day to day life. I would think after this long one of the people that saw the BG would have.
Even if a witness doe not know him personally they would get that nagging feeling I know this guy from somewhere. I have lived in places bigger than Delphi and would cross paths with people I have seen and couldn't place right away but then realized later where I had seen them before. Then when they realized where would have notified LE and then perhaps if they saw him at a store LE could review security tapes from there. So I think he did leave or isn't within the immediate area living day to day. He is in a larger area but may come into Delphi to visit family but makes sure that he limits his out on the general population there.

 

[CSIDreamer]

Part of the problem is that in their request for tips, LE reinforces the notion that no tip is insignificant and no matter how small you think it is, it may be important. It’s catch 22.

I think it is unreasonable to ask for the publics help in this way and not expect the majority of tips to be long shots. It’s the nature of the beast.

Very true. But I've seen people wanting to "call the tipline" because they have messed and messed with pixels in a photo to the point they now think they've outdone NASA. That's not a tip, and they're abusing it and wasting time.

That would be like me calling them to say I think he has a cattle prod down his pants. Check farm stores for recent purchases. Lol.

 

[Cutiekitty]

ITA. And even Jayme. Seen getting on a schoolbus. Oh, I think I'll take her. Random defined.

But then that nagging snapchat app rears it crazy head. JMO and all those goodies.

Snapchat is what is bugging me too. It’s a known fact that SC was a part of their lives as it is in many teens lives.

The question of did the girls let someone know they were going to the park - they could’ve via SC and no one would know. How did bg know they were on the bridge - could’ve seen the post on the story or the pic could’ve been sent to him directly via SC. If the pic was only posted to her story who looked at the story - unless LE or one of her SC friends took a screen shot of her story history by 2:07 on the 14th we will never know. I doubt that happened and that’s not a ding at anyone - The priority at the time was finding the girls. No one thought it would be a homicide investigation.

 

[MuddyTires]

I think a lot of people are confused about what circumstantial evidence is. Almost all evidence is circumstantial other than eyewitnesses, and (I think) video, etc. They have video, audio, eyewitnesses (not to the crime, but to him being in the area at the time of the murders), possibly DNA, and if they find the car, possibly fingerprints. If they know who he is, I really don't know what else they would feel like they'd need to prove anything. MOO

Eyewitness testimony and video can be circumstantial evidence. And audio and photograph can be direct.

Direct evidence is that which "directly" supports the fact without the need for an inference. Circumstantial evidence is everything else.

If the fact in question is who spilled the milk in the kitchen - if you saw 3-year old Suzie knock over the carton of milk and the milk spill out on the floor, that's direct evidence. If there was a video recording in the kitchen that caught 3-year old Suzie knocking over the carton of milk and the milk spilling on the floor that's also direct evidence.

If you walked into the kitchen and saw Suzie standing in a puddle of milk next to the carton knocked over, and no one else was in the house at the time, that's circumstantial evidence of the fact that Suzie spilled the milk.

 

[Charlot123]

So what would everyone here think may be the suspect's "window of opportunity to confess"? And -- just how would A/L's families feel, were they to hear that the suspect (once brought in, of course -- MOO) were offered a plea bargain?

I think these two weeks were his window of opportunity. Kindly show a place in my post where I say a plea bargain. Please.

I expected my own opinion that a confession would have been better than what follows. But I think he missed it anyhow. JMO.

 

[SilentRogue]

Eyewitness testimony and video can be circumstantial evidence. And audio and photograph can be direct.

Direct evidence is that which "directly" supports the fact without the need for an inference. Circumstantial evidence is everything else.

If the fact in question is who spilled the milk in the kitchen - if you saw 3-year old Suzie knock over the carton of milk and the milk spill out on the floor, that's direct evidence. If there was a video recording in the kitchen that caught 3-year old Suzie knocking over the carton of milk and the milk spilling on the floor that's also direct evidence.

If you walked into the kitchen and saw Suzie standing in a puddle of milk next to the carton knocked over, and no one else was in the house at the time, that's circumstantial evidence of the fact that Suzie spilled the milk.

Excellent explanation. It irks me when people get confused about direct/indirect evidence. There is no end all, be all regarding what types of evidence are regarded as which.

It's a substantially more nuanced distinction than most people realize.

 

[SilentRogue]

That was my first thought also-they want to know current whereabouts.

I have been hesitant in throwing my next thought out there for discussion. In Nov-Dec 201, thousands of convicted felons were released from Cali prisons. We can "what if" until the cows come home, but it occurred to me what if the killer had spent his teen or young adult summers in Delphi, moved to Cali as an adult, was imprisoned /released in Cali, and then travelled back to Delphi a few months after release. Maybe to see if any of his old buddies were still around East Carroll County or a surrounding county. Delphi is not exactly on most people's lists as a hot-spot tourist destination. I do not mean that in a negative way- for tourists to Indiana, visiting Brown County for the fall foliage, watching the Indy 500 in person would be more likely activities.

This is another type of investigative tip law enforcement doesn't need.

There is no... I repeat... NO... reason to believe this guy came from California simply because California repealed their 3-strike law and released a few thousand non violent offenders on parol in 2018.

 

[IceIce9]

This is another type of investigative tip law enforcement doesn't need.

There is no... I repeat... NO... reason to believe this guy came from California simply because California repealed their 3-strike law and released a few thousand non violent offenders on parol in 2018.

^^^^^^^^^^^^

THIS. What are the odds that a non-violent offender from California would travel to Delphi and commit a very violent crime?

 

[SilentRogue]

^^^^^^^^^^^^

THIS. What are the odds that a non-violent offender from California would travel to Delphi and commit a very violent crime?

Not to mention, this mass-release didn't occur until 2018, so this non violent offender wouldn't only have to travel to Delphi, Indiana... they'd also have to time travel.

<modsnip: unnecessary>

 

[IceIce9]

Very true. But I've seen people wanting to "call the tipline" because they have messed and messed with pixels in a photo to the point they now think they've outdone NASA. That's not a tip, and they're abusing it and wasting time.

That would be like me calling them to say I think he has a cattle prod down his pants. Check farm stores for recent purchases. Lol.

Probably someone had already called in that “tip.” Most likely similar tips have been called in for everything people have imagined seeing under his jacket.

“It looks like he is carrying a baby goat. Check all the goats in the area to see which ones have recently given birth.”

 

[Deleted member 278]

I’m not aware of the actual charge of suspicion of murder. I’m not from Indiana which is where BG would be charged though.

Edit: LE can detain someone for reasonable suspicion, but I would think they would wait to arrest for murder till they had strong probable cause like a dna hit or credible witness statement with supporting backup like phone records or something like that before they did so.

Google "charged with suspicion of murder" and read the results.

And, AGAIN, I never suggested they arrest him for murder at this time.

 

[Matic]

I've read a few cases of kidnappings where the victim has actually escaped and provided a location or identified their kidnapper and was awarded the reward money.

But is it common for LE to announce who the person is who gets the reward money say, in a case like this where someone provides a solid tip or positive evidence that leads to a conviction?

 

[MistyWaters]

But Jayme was random. They had no prior relationship and they were unknown to one another. He randomly saw her at the bus stop and then stalked her house. This case may not be any different. BG could have seen them and then decide to follow them and attack. In these examples "random" simply means that the perp saw the victim(s) by chance and had no other connection to them.

Targeted generally means the victim was chosen whether or not there was any type of prior relationship.

Jamie was randomly sighted by the perp in advance but she was specifically targeted by him to be kidnapped although she didn’t know she was being stalked. If one or both Delphi girls were targeted in the same way, I agree it may have been a similar situation where they may not have known the killer personally either.

IMO a random killing would be anyone walking on that bridge could’ve become the victim.

If the girls were murdered by somebody who found out they were going to be on the trail that afternoon who then followed them, they were targeted. JMO

Target - google dictionary
select as an object of attention or attack.
"two men were targeted by the attackers"
synonyms: pick out, single out, select, choose, decide on, earmark, fix on; More

 

[susiQ]

What would make LE have a “good idea” of who he was but with no way to charge him? That makes no sense to me. They have questioned hundreds, as they have said, cleared many by DNA, so they seem to have indicated...what would stop them from hauling this guy in the same way? And what would be the point of showing a sketch? Sketches look very different to different people, as we have found.

If they had a strong suspect, you can’t convince me they would not have found a way to obtain a DNA sample by now, with the FBI and etc all involved. They are not a bunch of time wasters, just hanging around hoping the right person will come forth with the right clue. This is a 2-yr old double murder. They are way past the time for trying any such ploys.
Jmo

Well, the first example that pops into my mind is the Rhoden massacre. It didn’t take LE too long to hone in on the Wagner’s, but it took two years to get what they needed to make the arrest. No point in arresting a suspect if you can’t make a conviction. JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

LE has a list of people they are interested in. They are appealing publically to those close to him that may know something. They are shaking the apple tree to see what falls down. The appeal is also to rattle BG. They teased him a bit with the you want to know what we know statement. They are hoping someone starts to behave differently and that once again those near him will notice.

You’ve described exactly what I thought the Press Conference intended to achieve.

 

[Jerrod]

I've read a few cases of kidnappings where the victim has actually escaped and provided a location or identified their kidnapper and was awarded the reward money. But is it common for LE to announce who the person is who gets the reward money say, in a case like this where someone provides a solid tip or positive evidence that leads to a conviction?

"The amount of the reward may be in excess of $200,000, depending upon the value of the information provided. Law enforcement authorities reserve the right to reject a claim for reward where there has been collusion or criminal involvement. The reward may be apportioned between various persons and/or paid for the arrest of the responsible person(s), as the circumstances fairly dictate."

ISP: Delphi Homicide Investigation

 

[MistyWaters]

"The amount of the reward may be in excess of $200,000, depending upon the value of the information provided. Law enforcement authorities reserve the right to reject a claim for reward where there has been collusion or criminal involvement. The reward may be apportioned between various persons and/or paid for the arrest of the responsible person(s), as the circumstances fairly dictate."

ISP: Delphi Homicide Investigation

“Depending on the value of information provided”.......I wonder, do the FB scrubbers who send side-by-side photos really think they have a shot at collecting $200k? Facial recognition software could accomplish as much. Or do the people who think they’re “helping” LE by tipping investigate strategy ...check yearbooks, look at religious leaders, teachers, etc....think LE will be going “oh I never thought of that” and bingo, an arrest is made and the award money goes to the tipster?

Within the 42.000 tips there must be a lot of craziness purely motivated by the reward. IMO.