Deceased/Not Found CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #54 *ARREST*

[acutename]

Possible human remains found at Patrick Frazee’s home to be tested for link to Kelsey Berreth murder

this is just quoting CNN.... how much of a fragment can there be for testing it to be totally consumptive? Anyone know? It sounds like it must be infinitesimal.

 

[ajaylee]

It's not so much that the fragment is tiny - it's that the amount of testable material in/on the fragment is so tiny.

It's also not clear to me how/when they know if the DNA is 'viable'. I think they could proceed with testing but not get any usable results.

I'm kind of surprised at how the defense is reacting to the possible results of this test. Is this just because the defense intends to be this aggressive with every detail of testimony, or is it because the results could be so damaging to PF's defense?

If the defense is going to be this aggressive generally, KK is in for a very rough time.

May seemed to indicate during the earlier hearing that they could get along without the testing. Was he referring just to the arraignment or also to the trial?

 

[ab01]

It's not so much that the fragment is tiny - it's that the amount of testable material in/on the fragment is so tiny.

It's also not clear to me how/when they know if the DNA is 'viable'. I think they could proceed with testing but not get any usable results.

I'm kind of surprised at how the defense is reacting to the possible results of this test. Is this just because the defense intends to be this aggressive with every detail of testimony, or is it because the results could be so damaging to PF's defense?

If the defense is going to be this aggressive generally, KK is in for a very rough time.

May seemed to indicate during the earlier hearing that they could get along without the testing. Was he referring just to the arraignment or also to the trial?

Honestly what I was trying to get across earlier was that I think the context was that, May didn’t think it was worth arguing about at that time. Bc I think at that specific time they were very confident they were going to find KB’s remains

I think they still felt it was important, but I think they have a mountain of other evidence as well.

It sure sounds to me like the defense believes it’s KB’s or at least they are very nervous about it


Jmo

 

[acutename]

It's not so much that the fragment is tiny - it's that the amount of testable material in/on the fragment is so tiny.

It's also not clear to me how/when they know if the DNA is 'viable'. I think they could proceed with testing but not get any usable results.

I'm kind of surprised at how the defense is reacting to the possible results of this test. Is this just because the defense intends to be this aggressive with every detail of testimony, or is it because the results could be so damaging to PF's defense?

If the defense is going to be this aggressive generally, KK is in for a very rough time.

May seemed to indicate during the earlier hearing that they could get along without the testing. Was he referring just to the arraignment or also to the trial?

maybe they thought initially that they would recover more evidence and then ultimately it was only this small fragment that they found. Can they tell forensically when teeth left their host? I would think that as they age, they become more brittle and the structure probably changes. If the tooth material was relatively fresh, I would think that would be impossible for the defense to explain.

 

[ajaylee]

Depending on the nature of the fragment, you're right, it could be impossible to explain.

If the fragment is from the root and has KB's DNA and it was found on PF's property, it's going to be very difficult to convince a jury KB is not dead.

If the fragment was from the root, PF's defense couldn't claim KB had just chipped her tooth.

 

[GordianKnot]

If you think about the brutality that Kelsey endured to have had her teeth shattered from her mouth, it's frightening. He is an animal and I hope he rots behind bars until his last breath.

JMO

RSABBM:
It's horrifying to contemplate KB's last moments on earth.
Thinking about what KB's last moments looked like, what they sounded like, and what they felt like to her,
the scene is incomprehensibly terrifying and gruesome.

I'm not at all certain KB's death was a quick one.
I do think her death was likely excruciatingly painful.

PF beat KB to death with a baseball bat.
I have no doubt about that whatsoever.
None.

PF is not human.
PF is completely devoid of human emotions.
There is not a shred of humanity in him.
He's an automaton.

I hope DA May really thinks about the especially heinous, cruel way in which PF murdered KB as he's weighing the decision regarding whether or not to pursue the death penalty.

What's that old saying again?
"An eye for an eye, and a ____ for a ____?"

Oh, yeah.
I remember the rest of it now.

JMO.

 

[LietKynes]

Agreed with above post.
There's the question of "Nature vs. Nurture"... maybe some of both-- but I'm betting on "Nurture". Someone raised this man.
And I do not believe for a second that PF became the monster he is ... just overnight.

And we still do not know where ma F and PF were driving to the morning of his arrest.
I hope this will be addressed at the trial.
Might show intent of kidnapping, or at least planning to hide baby K.
Imo.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Seems like the hearing today would have wasted a lot of the state's money if they were still saying the evidence was not significant or barely so.

Thinking about spending money foolishly, I wonder why they don't schedule Patrick's multiple hearings back-to-back. What a waste to have two on consecutive days this week.

I believe the custody hearing was kept private to protect little KB.

Keeping the custody discussions between DHS, Ma Frazee and the Berreths completely separate from the criminal hearings for PF seems to be a good thing.

Leave the little one out of the spotlight, and distanced from the media circus her monster baby daddy causes.

 

[Sweetsbeach]

It's not so much that the fragment is tiny - it's that the amount of testable material in/on the fragment is so tiny.

It's also not clear to me how/when they know if the DNA is 'viable'. I think they could proceed with testing but not get any usable results.

I'm kind of surprised at how the defense is reacting to the possible results of this test. Is this just because the defense intends to be this aggressive with every detail of testimony, or is it because the results could be so damaging to PF's defense?

If the defense is going to be this aggressive generally, KK is in for a very rough time.

May seemed to indicate during the earlier hearing that they could get along without the testing. Was he referring just to the arraignment or also to the trial?

I think the defense will aggressively protest every aspect of this case. In their minds, this creates many avenues leading toward a future appeal. And that means eventhough their client (arrogant, ignorant PF) wants to continue this battle in court, they know he's going down.

So the defense will challenge the way the trial is handled, how every procedure is conducted, hoping against hope an appeal is one day granted, and the inevitable guilty verdict overturned.

Not gonna happen! I think we've all developed a healthy respect for DA May...and he has only just begun to wage his war in pursuit of justice for Kelsey.

 

[GordianKnot]

I'm kind of surprised at how the defense is reacting to the possible results of this test. Is this just because the defense intends to be this aggressive with every detail of testimony, or is it because the results could be so damaging to PF's defense?

If the defense is going to be this aggressive generally, KK is in for a very rough time.

RSABBM:

The aggressive posturing the defense has shown reeks of desperation to me.

The state has collected "voluminous" amounts of evidence against PF, according to DA May.
PF's attorney knows that once a jury hears the mountain of evidence against him, PF is toast.
At this point, the defense's only shot is to try to keep as much evidence as possible out of the courtroom at trial.

If I were the public defender, though, I'd be careful not to assume too much of an aggressive stance, especially in front of a jury. Aggressiveness is not something that I'd want the jurors associating with my client any more than they already will be if I were the public defender.

Considering PF beat KB to death with a baseball bat, giving the appearance of being overly aggressive in the courtroom probably isn't the smartest strategy.

JMO.

 

[PommyMommy]

Tooth fragment to be tested as evidence in the Patrick Frazee case
[...]

We don't know where exactly the tooth fragment was recovered on Frazee's property.

What we do know is depending on how much DNA is inside the tooth, that could result in what's called a 'sample split.'

"If during that testing process the lab determines that it is no longer a minimal sample, they can provide a sample to the defense for their testing."

This means there's potential for both the prosecution and the defense to test the tooth. But, ultimately that will be up for the lab to decide. Meanwhile, the clock is ticking for a decision on the death penalty.

District Attorney Dan May explains there's about seven weeks left to decide.

"First of all we want to contact all the parties involved, contact the victim's family, contact law enforcement, and if we are seeking the death penalty, and we always contact the defense to allow them to have input," May said.

[...]

 

[Bugurl747]

I have been in and out as far as following the thread as of late, but wasn't there already one of KB's teeth found in a vent? Does this new potential evidence bare a lot of weight?

 

[LietKynes]

I have been in and out as far as following the thread as of late, but wasn't there already one of KB's teeth found in a vent? Does this new potential evidence bare a lot of weight?

Afaik; that particular tooth in the vent was found and supposedly thrown out by the co-conspirator gf.

 

[MemPat]

Possible human remains found at Patrick Frazee’s home to be tested for link to Kelsey Berreth murder

this is just quoting CNN.... how much of a fragment can there be for testing it to be totally consumptive? Anyone know? It sounds like it must be infinitesimal.

Now that we know Touch DNA from skin cells is a thing I have confidence that a tiny slice of tooth can also give a full profile.

Let the testing begin! (even if the defense tech is a convicted felon!)

 

[acutename]

Depending on the nature of the fragment, you're right, it could be impossible to explain.

If the fragment is from the root and has KB's DNA and it was found on PF's property, it's going to be very difficult to convince a jury KB is not dead.

If the fragment was from the root, PF's defense couldn't claim KB had just chipped her tooth.

they also neglected to have her over for Thanksgiving dinner, so she was not even around

 

[ab01]

Now that we know Touch DNA from skin cells is a thing I have confidence that a tiny slice of tooth can also give a full profile.

Let the testing begin! (even if the defense tech is a convicted felon!)

Ha! I laughed way too hard at this

thx for that MemPat

 

[MsBetsy]

Possible human remains found at Patrick Frazee’s home to be tested for link to Kelsey Berreth murder

this is just quoting CNN.... how much of a fragment can there be for testing it to be totally consumptive? Anyone know? It sounds like it must be infinitesimal.

If that were the case I don't know how they could have found it in the first place.
I think it's just a small piece of a tooth. I don't think it would have to be microscopic in order to be destroyed during testing. Imo

 

[steeltowngirl]

In case anyone else is wondering how many no body cases have resulted in a death sentence:

Dating back to the early 1800s, just 464 "no-body" murder cases have been tried, according to a former federal prosecutor who keeps track of cases lacking the victim's body. Just 31 of those have been sentenced to death.

2016 article
Leesburg murder case with no body a rarity for prosecutors

 

[GordianKnot]

In case anyone else is wondering how many no body cases have resulted in a death sentence:

Dating back to the early 1800s, just 464 "no-body" murder cases have been tried, according to a former federal prosecutor who keeps track of cases lacking the victim's body. Just 31 of those have been sentenced to death.

2016 article
Leesburg murder case with no body a rarity for prosecutors

Thanks for linking this article!
Leesburg murder case with no body a rarity for prosecutors
SABBM:

Eighty-eight percent of no-body cases have resulted in convictions, according to information collected by Tad DiBiase, who began tracking such cases after leaving the U.S. Attorney's Office in Washington, D.C., in 2007 for private practice.

That's an impressive statistic.
It certainly bodes well for DA May.
Not such good news for PF.

RE: 31 of the 464 "no-body" murder cases being sentenced to death, it would be interesting to know in how many of the 464 cases the death penalty was actually sought by prosecutors.

JMO.

 

[ab01]

Thanks for linking this article!
Leesburg murder case with no body a rarity for prosecutors
SABBM:

Eighty-eight percent of no-body cases have resulted in convictions, according to information collected by Tad DiBiase, who began tracking such cases after leaving the U.S. Attorney's Office in Washington, D.C., in 2007 for private practice.

That's an impressive statistic.
It certainly bodes well for DA May.
Not such good news for PF.

RE: 31 of the 464 "no-body" murder cases being sentenced to death, it would be interesting to know in how many of the 464 cases the death penalty was actually sought by prosecutors.

JMO.

Also of note no-body murder prosecutions are becoming more and more common almost by the day

Due to advances in technology, investigative techniques and forensic abilities etc

JMO