CA - Off Duty Police Officer shoots man and parents after altercation in Costco, Corona, June 2019

[wendybtn]

The article didn't mention that the officer was arrested, or taken to the hospital for a blood test, to determine whether or not alcohol was a factor.

If any other person had shot 3 people at Costco, that person would have definitely been arrested. My concern here, is that again, a police officer shoots someone, completely unrelated to their job, and yet, it appears, from the limited information in the article that the officer was not arrested, is not currently detained, and has not been charged with any crime at all. At the very least, discharging a weapon in a public place. Anything?

It definitely seems like there is a separate system of justice when a police officer shoots someone. That should worry anyone.

Perhaps they are gathering evidence of what happened and what charges are appropriate. Believe me, he's being questioned heavily by Internal Affairs and others.

 

[SoCalDavidS]

Perhaps they are gathering evidence of what happened and what charges are appropriate. Believe me, he's being questioned heavily by Internal Affairs and others.

Corona PD said their investigation has been completed, so they're not waiting on anybody to be questioned. And knowing what I do about the "Blue Code," I wouldn't believe a word the Killer said. Yes, it's sad, and how could I not believe a respected member of law enforcement, but it's the sign of the times we're living in. Honesty & Integrity are as much a part of Law Enforcement these days as they are to Politics. Very short supply.

 

[SuziQ]

Exactly. And when will we get to the point when off duty police officers will be treated the same as other citizens?

In a civilian only self defense shooting, there is usually not an arrest on the spot. An investigation is done, the information is passed on to the District Attorney, who then decides whether or not to file charges. IMO, this case is being handled the same as any other similar case of self defense.

 

[SuziQ]

Parents of man shot dead by off-duty cop in Costco slowly recovering, attorney says
*****************************************************************
Thank God they are going to make it! Why did the parents get shot? How many shots were fired? Sorry I need to catch up!

Parents of man shot dead by off-duty cop in Costco slowly recovering

"Russell is fighting an infection and pneumonia, making his recovery slower than expected," said the French's attorney, Dale Galipo. "Paola still has some complications with her wounds, which will require additional surgeries."

this is encouraging. I can't imagine their pain though.

 

[mickey2942]

In a civilian only self defense shooting, there is usually not an arrest on the spot. An investigation is done, the information is passed on to the District Attorney, who then decides whether or not to file charges. IMO, this case is being handled the same as any other similar case of self defense.

I disagree. If a civilian citizen shot three unarmed people at Costco while shopping, he or she would have definitely been arrested on the spot. Maybe released later, pending charges, but they would have had to answer questions, go to jail and arrange for bail.

Even if we go with "self defense", which is a very broad term here...Sanchez still endangered other people at Costco, who were afraid of the shots fired and stampeded for the doors...that had a delay to open...not even that issue of endangering others has been addressed.

 

[SuziQ]

I disagree. If a civilian citizen shot three unarmed people at Costco while shopping, he or she would have definitely been arrested on the spot. Maybe released later, pending charges, but they would have had to answer questions, go to jail and arrange for bail.

Even if we go with "self defense", which is a very broad term here...Sanchez still endangered other people at Costco, who were afraid of the shots fired and stampeded for the doors...that had a delay to open...not even that issue of endangering others has been addressed.

But self defense is claimed here. And it appears from initial reports that this was the case. Initially that is. We will find out eventually. Even the family attorney doesn't dispute that the officer was struck. This is very different than your scenario of a regular citizen opening fire and shooting three people. Apples and oranges here.

 

[SuziQ]

If I am attacked in a crowded public place, you bet I will defend myself. Especially in this day and age where people would rather pull out their phones than actually do something to help. That's not my fault that my attacker chose a crowded public place to attack me. That situation is on my attacker, not me.

 

[mickey2942]

If I am attacked in a crowded public place, you bet I will defend myself. Especially in this day and age where people would rather pull out their phones than actually do something to help. That's not my fault that my attacker chose a crowded public place to attack me. That situation is on my attacker, not me.

Agree to disagree. And that is perfectly fine.

We just don't have enough information yet to have anything other than speculation.

 

[Jeremy Bentham]

If I am attacked in a crowded public place, you bet I will defend myself. Especially in this day and age where people would rather pull out their phones than actually do something to help. That's not my fault that my attacker chose a crowded public place to attack me. That situation is on my attacker, not me.

I completely agree with your statement. If one is attacked, crowded public place or not, they may decide to defend themselves, with deadly force if necessary. Of course, then one needs to be ready to face the consequences of their decision.

The second part is what does not sit so well with me. Are consequences different for Joe Public versus Officer Joe? A random Google search shows me that perpetrators are usually arrested. In this case, the perpetrator was armed and the three victims were not.

Could the perps in the news articles below be acting in self defense? Maybe, maybe not. Who's to say the Perp in the Costco shooting did not have an ax to grind with the victims? But he was let off after being treated for minor injuries.
All news reports, witness statement (NYT), police statements and even the policeman's lawyer's statement does not say anything about the perp identifying himself as a police officer.

If I was Mr. Sanchez instead of Officer Sanchez on that fateful day last month, would I have been treated differently?

Article 1 : July 07, 2019
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...fter-early-morning-fatal-shooting-in-oklahoma

STILLWATER, OKLA. (AP) — Police in Stillwater say an early-morning fatal shooting has led to the arrest of a 29-year-old suspect.

Article 2: May 13, 2019
Oakland teen arrested after six people shot at central California beach

SAN LUIS OBISPO, Calif. (AP/KTVU) - Authorities arrested a 19-year-old Oakland man in connection with a shooting that injured six people at the Oceano Dunes Natural Preserve on California's central coast, which witnesses said began over a domestic dispute.

Article 3: April 3, 2019
Texas Prosecutor Drops All Charges In 2015 Biker Shootout That Killed 9

In a 2015 shootout in the parking lot of a Waco, Texas, restaurant, nine people were killed and 20 were injured. After the gunfight, police arrested 177 bikers, and a grand jury indicted 155 of them on charges of organized crime.

 

[RANCH]

I completely agree with your statement. If one is attacked, crowded public place or not, they may decide to defend themselves, with deadly force if necessary. Of course, then one needs to be ready to face the consequences of their decision.

The second part is what does not sit so well with me. Are consequences different for Joe Public versus Officer Joe? A random Google search shows me that perpetrators are usually arrested. In this case, the perpetrator was armed and the three victims were not.

Could the perps in the news articles below be acting in self defense? Maybe, maybe not. Who's to say the Perp in the Costco shooting did not have an ax to grind with the victims? But he was let off after being treated for minor injuries.
All news reports, witness statement (NYT), police statements and even the policeman's lawyer's statement does not say anything about the perp identifying himself as a police officer.

If I was Mr. Sanchez instead of Officer Sanchez on that fateful day last month, would I have been treated differently?

Article 1 : July 07, 2019
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...fter-early-morning-fatal-shooting-in-oklahoma

STILLWATER, OKLA. (AP) — Police in Stillwater say an early-morning fatal shooting has led to the arrest of a 29-year-old suspect.

Article 2: May 13, 2019
Oakland teen arrested after six people shot at central California beach

SAN LUIS OBISPO, Calif. (AP/KTVU) - Authorities arrested a 19-year-old Oakland man in connection with a shooting that injured six people at the Oceano Dunes Natural Preserve on California's central coast, which witnesses said began over a domestic dispute.

Article 3: April 3, 2019
Texas Prosecutor Drops All Charges In 2015 Biker Shootout That Killed 9

In a 2015 shootout in the parking lot of a Waco, Texas, restaurant, nine people were killed and 20 were injured. After the gunfight, police arrested 177 bikers, and a grand jury indicted 155 of them on charges of organized crime.

None of your examples seem similar to this case where the shooter was doing nothing wrong before he was attacked from behind. The first case you linked had a guy arriving at a convenience store and being shot for no apparent reason. No self defense there.

In the second you linked where a man assaulted a woman and when others intervened a fight broke out and shots were fired with six people being injured. I don't see anything about self defense there.

In the biker case there was numerous arrests but the DA dropped charges because of lack of evidence to gain a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt. We are not at that point in this case although that is one possible outcome. JMO

 

[Jeremy Bentham]

None of your examples seem similar to this case where the shooter was doing nothing wrong before he was attacked from behind.

What's not similar to the Costco case is that all the perps were arrested. The articles don't say that the killings were in self defense.

In case# 1, is it possible that Doyal shot and killed in self defense? Maybe yes or no. But he was arrested.
In case#2, is it possible that Orozco shot and killed in self defense? Again, maybe yes or no but he was arrested.
In case#3, is it possible that all (or at least some of) the bikers were shooting at each other in self defense and led the police to arrest 117 people?

I don't want to get into whataboutism but I honestly wonder if the treatment by LE at Costco would've been different it was a Mr. Sanchez instead of an Officer Sanchez,

 

[SuziQ]

I completely agree with your statement. If one is attacked, crowded public place or not, they may decide to defend themselves, with deadly force if necessary. Of course, then one needs to be ready to face the consequences of their decision.

The second part is what does not sit so well with me. Are consequences different for Joe Public versus Officer Joe? A random Google search shows me that perpetrators are usually arrested. In this case, the perpetrator was armed and the three victims were not.

Could the perps in the news articles below be acting in self defense? Maybe, maybe not. Who's to say the Perp in the Costco shooting did not have an ax to grind with the victims? But he was let off after being treated for minor injuries.
All news reports, witness statement (NYT), police statements and even the policeman's lawyer's statement does not say anything about the perp identifying himself as a police officer.

If I was Mr. Sanchez instead of Officer Sanchez on that fateful day last month, would I have been treated differently?

Article 1 : July 07, 2019
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...fter-early-morning-fatal-shooting-in-oklahoma

STILLWATER, OKLA. (AP) — Police in Stillwater say an early-morning fatal shooting has led to the arrest of a 29-year-old suspect.

Article 2: May 13, 2019
Oakland teen arrested after six people shot at central California beach

SAN LUIS OBISPO, Calif. (AP/KTVU) - Authorities arrested a 19-year-old Oakland man in connection with a shooting that injured six people at the Oceano Dunes Natural Preserve on California's central coast, which witnesses said began over a domestic dispute.

Article 3: April 3, 2019
Texas Prosecutor Drops All Charges In 2015 Biker Shootout That Killed 9

In a 2015 shootout in the parking lot of a Waco, Texas, restaurant, nine people were killed and 20 were injured. After the gunfight, police arrested 177 bikers, and a grand jury indicted 155 of them on charges of organized crime.

Again apples and oranges.

 

[SuziQ]

What's not similar to the Costco case is that all the perps were arrested. The articles don't say that the killings were in self defense.

In case# 1, is it possible that Doyal shot and killed in self defense? Maybe yes or no. But he was arrested.
In case#2, is it possible that Orozco shot and killed in self defense? Again, maybe yes or no but he was arrested.
In case#3, is it possible that all (or at least some of) the bikers were shooting at each other in self defense and led the police to arrest 117 people?

I don't want to get into whataboutism but I honestly wonder if the treatment by LE at Costco would've been different it was a Mr. Sanchez instead of an Officer Sanchez,

Unless these cases are known self defense cases. They do not add to the discussion. IMO.

 

[RANCH]

What's not similar to the Costco case is that all the perps were arrested. The articles don't say that the killings were in self defense.

In case# 1, is it possible that Doyal shot and killed in self defense? Maybe yes or no. But he was arrested.
In case#2, is it possible that Orozco shot and killed in self defense? Again, maybe yes or no but he was arrested.
In case#3, is it possible that all the bikers were shooting at each other in self defense and led the police to arrest 117 people?

I don't want to get into whataboutism but I honestly wonder if the treatment by LE at Costco would've been different it was a Mr. Sanchez instead of an Officer Sanchez,

If any of the cases you linked to had elements of self defense then I would say that the people should not have been immediately arrested just like what took place in this case.

I draw no distinction between a person being a police officer or a private citizen. Everyone has the right to defend themselves against great bodily injury or death.

They should not be put in jail until it's determined that there is probable cause that a crime has been committed vs a legally justified case of self defense. JMO

 

[Jeremy Bentham]

That is exactly my point. In each case, we don't have a narrative other than what the media/law enforcement tells us. Say what you will but most reporting by the media is a repetition of what the authorities tell them.

Per the killer's lawyer and the police department, the statement says that the perp was violently attacked from behind while he was carrying his toddler. He fell down, lost consciousness briefly, got up and shot and killed the threat, who he apparently believed to be Mr French.

It is my opinion from what I know from the police, perp's lawyer and the media that a person shot three unarmed people - two of who were elderly. We have no reporting (not evidence) that any of the victims used deadly or overwhelming force against the killer. I am sure the courts will dispense the proper judgement.
Per initial reports, the perp was not even taken into custody for shooting three people into questioning. Would I - Joe Public - be given the same courtesy?

I question the double standards. Nothing else.

 

[RANCH]

That is exactly my point. In each case, we don't have a narrative other than what the media/law enforcement tells us. Say what you will but most reporting by the media is a repetition of what the authorities tell them.

Per the killer's lawyer and the police department, the statement says that the perp was violently attacked from behind while he was carrying his toddler. He fell down, lost consciousness briefly, got up and shot and killed the threat, who he apparently believed to be Mr French.

It is my opinion from what I know from the police, perp's lawyer and the media that a person shot three unarmed people - two of who were elderly. We have no reporting (not evidence) that any of the victims used deadly or overwhelming force against the killer. I am sure the courts will dispense the proper judgement.
Per initial reports, the perp was not even taken into custody for shooting three people into questioning. Would I - Joe Public - be given the same courtesy?

I question the double standards. Nothing else.

I don't know that the officer in this case has received any special treatment so I can't say that there's any double standard in this case. JMO

 

[Catmommy]

I don't know that the officer in this case has received any special treatment so I can't say that there's any double standard in this case. JMO

There's always the experiment that one/some of us sleuthers do the exact same thing and then we'll know for certain about him receiving any special treatment. I don't think that any of us would like what we found out. No, I'm not being serious or snarky just trying to put things into perspective. In my opinion, notifying everyone you're an off duty policeman after the fact that you've shot down three unarmed people without warning in the middle of a crowded store seems to have been used as a get out of jail free card that has so far worked excellently.

 

[RANCH]

There's always the experiment that one/some of us sleuthers do the exact same thing and then we'll know for certain about him receiving any special treatment. I don't think that any of us would like what we found out. No, I'm not being serious or snarky just trying to put things into perspective. In my opinion, notifying everyone you're an off duty policeman after the fact that you've shot down three unarmed people without warning in the middle of a crowded store seems to have been used as a get out of jail free card that has so far worked excellently.

If doing the exact same thing means legally using deadly force in self defense then I would hope that no one would be arrested no matter what their profession was. JMO

 

[RANCH]

Here's a link to a recent case in Newport News VA where a civilian woman shot and killed a man in an apparent case of self defense and was not immediately arrested pending further investigation.

Newport News Police Chief Steven Drew cautioned Monday that his investigators won’t make their final determination on the case “until we get the autopsy back,” and finish out the final interviews.

The case then will be turned over to Commonwealth’s Attorney Howard Gwynn, who will rule on whether the shooting was justified.

“If they decide it’s a criminal homicide, then we will obtain warrants and make an arrest,” Drew said. “But the information I have so far, from evidence at the scene and what I’m seeing now, is that this is going to be a justifiable homicide … It looks like it’s a strong possibility that this is going to be self-defense.”

This is the correct way to handle cases like this and the Costco shooting. If further investigation shows that the shooting is a criminal homicide then the officer should be arrested and charged. JMO

Woman likely shot and killed man in self-defense, Newport News police say

 

[Sunshine95]

When I was frequently being put in danger when the I had a protective order on kept breaking into my home and stalking on my property, I was encouraged to use self defense if I could when needed. I was explained in detail on multiple occasions by state police what would justify shooting in self defense, and it was explained that if that happened I would be temporarily arrested until it was determined by the Prosecutor that it was self defense and released. In multiple conversations with multiple LE it was explained to me that there has to be an arrest whenever a shooting occurred. Even though they all knew me and my kids were in danger. Maybe my state is different than there but my situation would seem to be more obviously self defense than in this situation.