Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #109

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Here's the time lapse video of the Freedom Bridge going up .. the CPS building can be seen bottom right in the last few frames of the video.
Maybe the thing someone "saw and felt they needed to report" (reported after the murders became known to public) was a car driving over grassy strip between old CPS bldg to quickly pull onto the highway? A way to "get around quickly" ? I think this could be it!
 
I agree, something is wrong. @Cutiekitty has pointed out in the past that the SC photo of Abby could have been taken prior to 2:07. And while the FBI billboard listed 2:30 as the last seen time for BG (from the video), that has since been removed with no explanation. ISP still describes the girls arriving at the trail around 1pm, while KG says she has phone record to prove it was 1:38.

We don't know if the man the witnesses saw was even BG, but regardless, it makes me think. Is it possible that the 2:30 'last seen' FBI billboard time didn't come from the bridge video, but actually from the very last bit of audio LE has? That might give another 15 (+/-) min. to work with. Maybe the girls died closer to 2:30 than 3?
That could well be the explanation. CME took bridge pics at 2.49 so for her to not have heard or seen anything it had to have been over by then. So between the video time and 2.45 could be likely for FSG to see him later at 2.52. Very tight timeline. MOO.
 
I STILL don't fully understand how SC works but- If everything happened a little earlier than we've been supposing- Could LG have taken the SC pic of Abby and kind of held onto it a bit then posted it quickly when feeling they were being stalked to show they were at the bridge in case something was about to happen (a quick way to alert others to their location or leave evidence of their location) ? Maybe the SC pic was taken before 2:07 ?
 
Warning: irreverent post:

At the County Fair yesterday, I wonder if any of the goats are related to BG's Baby Goat:

upload_2019-8-4_7-5-21.jpeg

Yeah, the world needs a Baby Goat song to push Baby Shark out of the limelight!

Baby Goat, bleat bleat, bleat, bleat
Baby Goat, bleat bleat, bleat, bleat

The Tree Billy Goats Gruff story happens on a bridge, after all. I suppose BG is the troll here?


Please accept my apologies....

RIP, young ladies, your stars shine brightly for us!
 
That could well be the explanation. CME took bridge pics at 2.49 so for her to not have heard or seen anything it had to have been over by then. So between the video time and 2.45 could be likely for FSG to see him later at 2.52. Very tight timeline. MOO.
You know, even if the 2:07 SC photo time is accurate, I still think it's feasible to have them at the CS by 2:30. It really does make sense.

As you said, it explains why nothing was heard or seen. Nobody was near the bridge.
 
Can you address how one would carry someone who is 180 pounds the length of 3 football fields in 15 minutes (yes, you said the current in the creek could "help" but what about the steep bank from creek to the place where the bodies were found), or conversely, carry one approx 100 pound person the same distance while controlling a 180 pound person? I'm trying to imagine two girls and fireman's carry? Dragging? I just don't see it being at all viable. And like a previous poster said, to what end? Just to hide them in a particular place? Why not leave them where they fell. How exposed would a person be dragging corpses across the creek to the sight of people who may be walking on the trails?

I weigh 125 lb. Walking through any creek is awkward because you have to do a near march type step to get your feet out of the gunk at the bottom. I can't imagine how hard that would be at 300 lb plus. It would take some time to go that far.
 


Here's the time lapse video of the Freedom Bridge going up .. the CPS building can be seen bottom right in the last few frames of the video.
Yes, that is about where I thought it was in reference to the CPS. I still think he violates 2 things he has to do after the killing. One, is to leave the area as quickly - but not so he attracts attention. Why would he be in the area of the bridge if his vehicle is at the CPS building. If he crosses over the bridge he either has to go over the bridge and then double back crossing over the Hoosier Hwy or turn around on or before the bridge to double back to his vehicle. Extra distance means greater chance of being seen by more witnesses. Second, go where you will be seen by as few witnesses as possible - if you cannot eliminate being seen altogether. The Freedom Bridge would seem to be the last place in the trail complex where you could expect to accomplish that part.

But this brings another scenario to mind and it is not in the timeline. Very early on, residents were asked if they saw someone hitchhiking. I believe they mentioned the Hoosier Hwy for the possible hitchhiker. What if the guy seen was not hitchhiking but seen before or after crossing Hoosier Hwy to double back to his car. This brings up what I'm thinking about. In my scenario, he DOES NOT know the trail very well and ends up on the Freedom Bridge, looks around to see his vehicle behind him at the CPS building and realizes he is going the wrong way. He crosses the bridge down to the Hoosier Hwy, crosses it and goes to his vehicle. This would likely be the act of someone who is either NOT familiar with the trail OR it has been years since they've been there. Researching the Freedom Bridge I find that it was built in 1897 or 1898 (2 different years mentioned), but over the White River. It was dismantled in 2001/2 with the intention of reconstructing it at another location. Subsequently it was rebuilt in its new location and the official opening was 25 April 2015. Is it possible this guy grew up in the area, but the bridge was not there and therefore he was not familiar with the trail to the bridge?
Freedom Bridge set to officially open in Delphi
Freedom Bridge and Plazas over Hoosier Heartland Highway - DLZ
 
Yes, that is about where I thought it was in reference to the CPS. I still think he violates 2 things he has to do after the killing. One, is to leave the area as quickly - but not so he attracts attention. Why would he be in the area of the bridge if his vehicle is at the CPS building. If he crosses over the bridge he either has to go over the bridge and then double back crossing over the Hoosier Hwy or turn around on or before the bridge to double back to his vehicle. Extra distance means greater chance of being seen by more witnesses. Second, go where you will be seen by as few witnesses as possible - if you cannot eliminate being seen altogether. The Freedom Bridge would seem to be the last place in the trail complex where you could expect to accomplish that part.

But this brings another scenario to mind and it is not in the timeline. Very early on, residents were asked if they saw someone hitchhiking. I believe they mentioned the Hoosier Hwy for the possible hitchhiker. What if the guy seen was not hitchhiking but seen before or after crossing Hoosier Hwy to double back to his car. This brings up what I'm thinking about. In my scenario, he DOES NOT know the trail very well and ends up on the Freedom Bridge, looks around to see his vehicle behind him at the CPS building and realizes he is going the wrong way. He crosses the bridge down to the Hoosier Hwy, crosses it and goes to his vehicle. This would likely be the act of someone who is either NOT familiar with the trail OR it has been years since they've been there. Researching the Freedom Bridge I find that it was built in 1897 or 1898 (2 different years mentioned), but over the White River. It was dismantled in 2001/2 with the intention of reconstructing it at another location. Subsequently it was rebuilt in its new location and the official opening was 25 April 2015. Is it possible this guy grew up in the area, but the bridge was not there and therefore he was not familiar with the trail to the bridge?
Freedom Bridge set to officially open in Delphi
Freedom Bridge and Plazas over Hoosier Heartland Highway - DLZ
Or, if he'd had a problem with his car, or lost his keys, and didn't have a phone on him, he had to walk to the nearest public phone? Wouldn't that be convenient? I don't really think this happened, but still...
 
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Yes, that is about where I thought it was in reference to the CPS. I still think he violates 2 things he has to do after the killing. One, is to leave the area as quickly - but not so he attracts attention. Why would he be in the area of the bridge if his vehicle is at the CPS building. If he crosses over the bridge he either has to go over the bridge and then double back crossing over the Hoosier Hwy or turn around on or before the bridge to double back to his vehicle. Extra distance means greater chance of being seen by more witnesses. Second, go where you will be seen by as few witnesses as possible - if you cannot eliminate being seen altogether. The Freedom Bridge would seem to be the last place in the trail complex where you could expect to accomplish that part.

But this brings another scenario to mind and it is not in the timeline. Very early on, residents were asked if they saw someone hitchhiking. I believe they mentioned the Hoosier Hwy for the possible hitchhiker. What if the guy seen was not hitchhiking but seen before or after crossing Hoosier Hwy to double back to his car. This brings up what I'm thinking about. In my scenario, he DOES NOT know the trail very well and ends up on the Freedom Bridge, looks around to see his vehicle behind him at the CPS building and realizes he is going the wrong way. He crosses the bridge down to the Hoosier Hwy, crosses it and goes to his vehicle. This would likely be the act of someone who is either NOT familiar with the trail OR it has been years since they've been there. Researching the Freedom Bridge I find that it was built in 1897 or 1898 (2 different years mentioned), but over the White River. It was dismantled in 2001/2 with the intention of reconstructing it at another location. Subsequently it was rebuilt in its new location and the official opening was 25 April 2015. Is it possible this guy grew up in the area, but the bridge was not there and therefore he was not familiar with the trail to the bridge?
Freedom Bridge set to officially open in Delphi
Freedom Bridge and Plazas over Hoosier Heartland Highway - DLZ
I took it to mean he was on the CPS side of Freedom Bridge, not necessarily on the Bridge itself. He could have been walking on either side of the bridge, in a car at the Freedom Bridge parking area to meet someone in the car that was earlier seen at the CPS building. The timing for the car at CPS was 12 till 5 p.m. IIRC. That car may not have been there for that whole 5 hour period but could have dropped someone off, then returned to either parking area or the trail head parking area.

I am thinking BG and a vehicle and a driver. I don't believe BG necessarily got there on his own. But he wandered off on his own for a bit. MOO
 
Yes, that is about where I thought it was in reference to the CPS. I still think he violates 2 things he has to do after the killing. One, is to leave the area as quickly - but not so he attracts attention. Why would he be in the area of the bridge if his vehicle is at the CPS building. If he crosses over the bridge he either has to go over the bridge and then double back crossing over the Hoosier Hwy or turn around on or before the bridge to double back to his vehicle. Extra distance means greater chance of being seen by more witnesses. Second, go where you will be seen by as few witnesses as possible - if you cannot eliminate being seen altogether. The Freedom Bridge would seem to be the last place in the trail complex where you could expect to accomplish that part.

But this brings another scenario to mind and it is not in the timeline. Very early on, residents were asked if they saw someone hitchhiking. I believe they mentioned the Hoosier Hwy for the possible hitchhiker. What if the guy seen was not hitchhiking but seen before or after crossing Hoosier Hwy to double back to his car. This brings up what I'm thinking about. In my scenario, he DOES NOT know the trail very well and ends up on the Freedom Bridge, looks around to see his vehicle behind him at the CPS building and realizes he is going the wrong way. He crosses the bridge down to the Hoosier Hwy, crosses it and goes to his vehicle. This would likely be the act of someone who is either NOT familiar with the trail OR it has been years since they've been there. Researching the Freedom Bridge I find that it was built in 1897 or 1898 (2 different years mentioned), but over the White River. It was dismantled in 2001/2 with the intention of reconstructing it at another location. Subsequently it was rebuilt in its new location and the official opening was 25 April 2015. Is it possible this guy grew up in the area, but the bridge was not there and therefore he was not familiar with the trail to the bridge?
Freedom Bridge set to officially open in Delphi
Freedom Bridge and Plazas over Hoosier Heartland Highway - DLZ
Also, even if BG had avoided the trails to get back to his car, if he was parked in the CPS lot, at the point around the main trail entrance, he'd have had no choice but to walk near the Freedom Bridge to get back to the lot.

Did the witness specify he saw BG on the bridge, or just at the bridge?
 

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Or, if he'd had a problem with his car, or lost his keys, and didn't have a phone on him, he had to walk to the nearest public phone? Wouldn't that be convenient?
And, of course, I am using the assumption that the person parked at the CPS building is the killer not just an unaccounted for witness. The killer could very well have parked at Freedom Bridge. (Although, if he planned to commit the crime, i.e., stalking for prey, I think the CPS building would fit his needs better.)

My mistake is that I frequently forget that LE has said they want to talk to this person and have not labeled them a suspect like they did with the guy on the bridge. For all I know this person may have been seen taking numerous photos, maybe even seen with a camera model (Canon, Nikon, etc.), and LE wants to know what they have. (For the record that is a scenario that I created for an example....I'm not saying someone was actually there taking photos. :cool:) This person may not be a suspect, but someone on a day trip from Chicago IL, Louisville KY or St. Louis MO and they have not followed this case. After all, I believe at the first CrimeCon the family attended didn't they state there were attendees who were not familiar with this case?
 
I took it to mean he was on the CPS side of Freedom Bridge, not necessarily on the Bridge itself. He could have been walking on either side of the bridge, in a car at the Freedom Bridge parking area to meet someone in the car that was earlier seen at the CPS building. The timing for the car at CPS was 12 till 5 p.m. IIRC. That car may not have been there for that whole 5 hour period but could have dropped someone off, then returned to either parking area or the trail head parking area.

I am thinking BG and a vehicle and a driver. I don't believe BG necessarily got there on his own. But he wandered off on his own for a bit. MOO
I don't believe that scenario has a high probability, but at the same time I can't throw it out. That scenario brings up the possibility that another party knows or should at least suspect who the killer is.
 
And, of course, I am using the assumption that the person parked at the CPS building is the killer not just an unaccounted for witness. The killer could very well have parked at Freedom Bridge. (Although, if he planned to commit the crime, i.e., stalking for prey, I think the CPS building would fit his needs better.)

My mistake is that I frequently forget that LE has said they want to talk to this person and have not labeled them a suspect like they did with the guy on the bridge. For all I know this person may have been seen taking numerous photos, maybe even seen with a camera model (Canon, Nikon, etc.), and LE wants to know what they have. (For the record that is a scenario that I created for an example....I'm not saying someone was actually there taking photos. :cool:) This person may not be a suspect, but someone on a day trip from Chicago IL, Louisville KY or St. Louis MO and they have not followed this case. After all, I believe at the first CrimeCon the family attended didn't they state there were attendees who were not familiar with this case?

Something I hadn't noticed until yesterday. This makes me feel they do think BG was parked in the CPS lot, but I could be interpreting it incorrectly.
BBM
Indiana State Police releases clarification points on Delphi murder suspect
  • A car was parked in the abandoned CPS building parking lot between the hours of noon and 5:00 p.m. on February 13, 2017
    • We are looking for anyone who could give a description of vehicles that were in the parking lot during the time
 
Something I hadn't noticed until yesterday. This makes me feel they do think BG was parked in the CPS lot, but I could be interpreting it incorrectly.
BBM
Indiana State Police releases clarification points on Delphi murder suspect
  • A car was parked in the abandoned CPS building parking lot between the hours of noon and 5:00 p.m. on February 13, 2017
    • We are looking for anyone who could give a description of vehicles that were in the parking lot during the time
I saw that, but they stop short of saying to what extent the driver is involved. Do they believe this person is an unaccounted for witness? In which case, they won't likely publicize what they learn on the chance that the public (folks like me) are going to consider him the killer. There has been nothing stated about anyone seeing who the driver was - male? Or female? Or if anyone actually saw a person exit or enter the vehicle at all. I believe it is a possibility that if this is who LE suspects is the killer they either have not learned anything - or enough details to ID make/model of vehicle. I tend to believe that if LE knows, for example, if they are looking particular color make (e.g., Chevy, Ford, Toyoto) and year range that vehicle was made and they believe it to be the suspect they would release that as info someone could use to ID a person and call in a tip. I get that LE would not release more audio or the method of murder as these are things that not only the killer would know, but probably not help the public ID a killer. But if they got a better description of a vehicle and LE had a STRONG suspicion this was the killer why not release it. If witnesses saw the vehicle this is not information ONLY the killer would know.
 
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I don't believe that scenario has a high probability, but at the same time I can't throw it out. That scenario brings up the possibility that another party knows or should at least suspect who the killer is.
Yes it does. But I think LE have alluded to this in the past. Several witnesses saw BG but noone knows who he is, yet he is supposedly local to Delphi. Now "local to Delphi" could be what 10-15 miles radius perhaps?
 
Has there been any info in press conference or MSM about the couple under the bridge that would exclude the possibility that it may have been BG and one of the girls?
 
I measured out the entire trail from the CPS lot, to the south end of the bridge, back across the bridge and into the woods to the CS, then back. This is only my guess on the route BG took, and the measurements are estimates. And it's assuming the witness statements are accurate to BG.

This article says the average time to hike a mile is around 30 min., give or take for terrain (ie. - bridge).
Determine How Long to Hike a Mile

IMO, based on the measurements, the timeline works out uncomfortably well if the murders happened quickly.

Red squares are pre-murders, green squares are post-murders.
 

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I STILL don't fully understand how SC works but- If everything happened a little earlier than we've been supposing- Could LG have taken the SC pic of Abby and kind of held onto it a bit then posted it quickly when feeling they were being stalked to show they were at the bridge in case something was about to happen (a quick way to alert others to their location or leave evidence of their location) ? Maybe the SC pic was taken before 2:07 ?

The only way the pic could’ve been taken then posted later would be if someone took the pic with one phone (at say noon - just an example and not implying anything) then took a picture of the pic with another phone (at say 2:07) and posted it via LG’s SC account. With iPhones and an undamaged cracked screen this would not look like a pic of a pic. It would look like the poster took the pic. I’ve done it.

If the pic was taken earlier and saved to the camera roll or SC memories then posted to SC it would say from camera roll or from memories on it. The picture was taken via SC and posted after it was taken.

The time issue has to do with the source of the time which was a FB post. LE has never stated the time nor verified its accuracy. The media and youtubers have stated the time repeatedly and it has now become fact. I’m not convinced the time is accurate, but I could be wrong.
 
Sure, here it is.

Abigail Williams & Liberty German: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com

"The photo, which you can see above, was posted about 2 p.m. It was taken by Liberty German and shows Abigail Williams walking along the railroad bridge. Liberty posted it to her Snapchat account.

According to police and family members, the girls phones pinged in multiple locations but were shut off shortly after they were reported missing.

A woman who was at the bridge commented on a Facebook post by a family member of one of the girls, saying she had been at the bridge shortly after the girls posted the photo. She said she didn’t notice anything out of the ordinary.

“I even walked all the way across the bridge and back. I only (saw) a guy when I first got there and another couple once I got on the bridge,” CME wrote. “I didn’t see the girls at all. I also didn’t take the trail that leads to the right. Only took the trail that lead to the bridge.”"

So the guy she saw could have been BG or FSG right? And the couple could have been the couple seen by FSG also. But neither CME or FSG saw or heard the girls.

(Witness name changed to initials)

The witness sighting came from a FB post? I’m skeptical about it now.
 
Maybe the thing someone "saw and felt they needed to report" (reported after the murders became known to public) was a car driving over grassy strip between old CPS bldg to quickly pull onto the highway? A way to "get around quickly" ? I think this could be it!
Do you think that was what BH saw that day? Maybe he's the witness to the vehicle leaving, maybe quite awhile after murders and LE needed a witness to it being parked there at the time of the murders? Wish we knew just where BH was situated that day when he saw whatever it was that he saw.
 
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