GUILTY CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #72

[Artis]

Hey, @DaisyKenny, you would definitely be the person I'd like auditing my company fiances but I'm glad your not a cop as I think you might be a tad over eager.

 

[DaisyKenny]

"Detained" would be like having your car stopped and being briefly questioned. Arrested and in custody requires evidence which they did *NOT have. Further, he went of his own free will to be interrogated and confessed, sparing the need for a lengthy investigation or search which would have taken longer than it took to have Chris Watts permanently behind bars.

So, you're thinking that had investigators recovered all of the CW-NK texts and asked what he planned to do with the car that it would have shown NK was involved in the murders - like there, in the house, that night/morning?

*correction

Yes, that's generally what being detained means, but I still think they should have detained him long enough to preserve a likely crime scene, so we will have to agree to disagree on that.

As for the texts, I don't think they should have relied on NK to give them a dozen texts out of what should have been hundreds.

I agree there was no evidence in the video footage that she was there that morning. I can even dismiss the google search she did about Shanann months prior because CW was the one who instigated the affair by emailing her a couple weeks before his family left town. He carried out the affair and murders on his own timeline, not hers.

And if NK really had nothing to do with, she brought much of it on herself by being dishonest and destroying evidence that could have removed any doubts folks have about her possible involvement.

 

[scdiv]

LOL you are probably right. Unfriended in name only, he knew he could look at hers but made sure she couldn't look at his. But still he could have got it off of CW's site, no? CW's site would still have been showing SW posts at that point. Anyway SOMEHOW Ronnie had that post all ready to show law enforcement at the same moment he was stricken with grief over the deaths of his grand daughters.

CW had recently deleted his Facebook account -- so that picture wouldn't have been on his page as he had previously deactivated his page.

 

[Seattle1]

Given they had video showing CW walking back and forth loading his truck and that same video proved there was no other possible way they could have left that house, I believe that more than met the "reasonable suspicion" threshold required for police to detain him in Colorado, which could have preserved a probable crime scene.
And no, I don't believe the police should have already known everyone was already dead at that point, which is why they should have acted quickly that same day. IMO

Huh? SW and the children could have crawled out the window -- that's not evidence of a crime any more than CW walking back and forth to his vehicle.

Also, if I understand correctly, "reasonable suspicion" typically relates to searches and seizures.

CW went to the police station voluntarily for questioning and left because there was no reason to detain or arrest him. When he returned to the police station the following day, circumstances were different and he was arrested.

Also, @riolove77 is an excellent lawyer and we are lucky to have him comment on these cases.

MOO

 

[Artis]

Yes, that's generally what being detained means, but I still think they should have detained him long enough to preserve a likely crime scene, so we will have to agree to disagree on that.

As for the texts, I don't think they should have relied on NK to give them a dozen texts out of what should have been hundreds.

I agree there was no evidence in the video footage that she was there that morning. I can even dismiss the google search she did about Shanann months prior because CW was the one who instigated the affair by emailing her a couple weeks before his family left town. He carried out the affair and murders on his own timeline, not hers.

And if NK really had nothing to do with, she brought much of it on herself by being dishonest and destroying evidence that could have removed any doubts folks have about her possible involvement.

When NA got the cop there, remember Chris let him in to look around. Later, there was a more extensive look around when the bed sheet was found in the trash. Do you recall when, in the timeline, that occurred? Anyway, Chris didn't even have the sense to get rid of the sheet which is further indication that he wasn't thinking like some criminal mastermind. He wanted his family gone and that's it.

When it comes to texts that have been deleted, I don't think they're recoverable. Phone records can be subpoenaed which will show metadata (just to and from what numbers). I guess the investigators didn't feel there was enough there there, with NK, to bother. Records may have shown lots of text activity between them but without the content of those texts, what would they learn? I'm sure they knew she was minimizing the intensity of the relationship to make herself look like less of a *advertiser censored*. If they thought she was hiding being involved in the planning or had been there when he killed everyone, I think they would have pursued it.

I would sure love to know what all of their texts said. I'm also not convinced that Chris was the initiator (his email to her). *IF* she, in fact, was googling him and Shannon in 2017, she had her eye on him and was probably sending a lot of non verbal signals while playing that she would never want to mess with a happily married man and father. Yeah, riiight.

 

[DaisyKenny]

When NA got the cop there, remember Chris let him in to look around. Later, there was a more extensive look around when the bed sheet was found in the trash. Do you recall when, in the timeline, that occurred? Anyway, Chris didn't even have the sense to get rid of the sheet which is further indication that he wasn't thinking like some criminal mastermind. He wanted his family gone and that's it.

When it comes to texts that have been deleted, I don't think they're recoverable. Phone records can be subpoenaed which will show metadata (just to and from what numbers). I guess the investigators didn't feel there was enough there there, with NK, to bother. Records may have shown lots of text activity between them but without the content of those texts, what would they learn? I'm sure they knew she was minimizing the intensity of the relationship to make herself look like less of a *advertiser censored*. If they thought she was hiding being involved in the planning or had been there when he killed everyone, I think they would have pursued it.

I would sure love to know what all of their texts said. I'm also not convinced that Chris was the initiator (his email to her). *IF* she, in fact, was googling him and Shannon in 2017, she had her eye on him and was probably sending a lot of non verbal signals while playing that she would never want to mess with a happily married man and father. Yeah, riiight.

He didn't have to be a criminal mastermind to realize that he needed to ditch the car. He even searched pricing on a new Audi Q7 a couple days before, which also indicates that he knew he would need a new car. As a former dealership mechanic, I cannot believe that he wasn't aware of the truck GPS. That's why he disposed of his family at the worksite because he had a reason to be there.

His original plan was claim his 'spiteful' wife took his 'beloved' daughters after he asked for a separation. He took advantage of the estrangement resulting from nutgate to tell his family one thing and Shanann and her family another. He told NK, the Watts and his best friend about his plans to leave her and even left that note with his sister. Shanann, her family and her friends knew they were having marital issues but didn't know anything about a separation. He stupidly thought he would be viewed as a victim rather than the prime suspect. MOO

 

[Colorado303]

But he had already given a toxic account knocking Shanann, just a few minutes before, right there in the office. I think that was the one where he said she was always sitting on her behind, on the telephone, while sweet Chris did all the work in the house and took care of the kids. Was that also the interview where Ronnie said that Shanann was bipolar as though he would know anything about diagnosing mental health problems? And don't forget he had that doll photo all ready to show the FBI/CBI, ready to blame that on SW. That photo was sent by CW to SW's phone. How/When did Ronnie get it? I think they discussed a whole lot more than sports on the way back from the airport.

I think they did too. I always suspected CW confessed to his father on the way back from the airport. And that’s why he wanted to talk to his father again before confessing in the police station. He needed to make sure Ronnie knew he was confessing to something different than they had talked about in the car. Otherwise, if police told Ronnie CW had confessed there’s no telling what Ronnie might have said. It sure wouldn’t have been SW killed the girls.

I’ve watched the video of CW “confessing” to Ronnie in the interview room more times than I can count. When CW says SW strangled the girls Ronnie asks “strangled or smothered?” or “strangled, not smothered?”. By the time that video was released the DA had said at the sentencing hearing autopsy found death was caused by smothering. Seems a strange question for Ronnie to ask unless he had previously been told the girls were smothered.

Assuming CW confessed to Ronnie on the way back from the airport I wonder if he also told him the girls were alive when he left the house. I always thought Ronnie looked more confused than horrified in the interview room tape. He made some “horrified” comments but to me they rang false and I chalk them up to knowing he was on camera and being careful not to say anything that would contradict his kid’s latest story.

There’s also speculation that when LE dropped Ronnie off at his hotel one of the bags Ronnie brought in with him was the same bag CW was seen moving earlier in the week. Though there is no proof, IMO that’s what became of the girl’s missing blankets.

Of course CW should have hired an attorney right away, and thank God he didn’t. It’s an even bigger miracle Ronnie didn’t insist he shut up and hire a lawyer as soon as CW indicated he was going to confess. Wouldn’t be surprised if MaMa Watts berates him for it daily.

 

[Colorado303]

I believe the video proves exactly that, meeting the reasonable suspicion threshold.
The front door was latched from the inside, making it impossible for her to leave in that way. If she left through the garage the video would have captured them leaving.
It is not reasonable to claim that they might have left through the back door and climbed over the backyard fence, but IIRC even the back door was locked from the inside.

Yes. The back door was a sliding door and was not only locked it had a dowel placed in the track to prevent it from being opened.

 

[NuttMegg]

I think they did too. I always suspected CW confessed to his father on the way back from the airport. And that’s why he wanted to talk to his father again before confessing in the police station. He needed to make sure Ronnie knew he was confessing to something different than they had talked about in the car. Otherwise, if police told Ronnie CW had confessed there’s no telling what Ronnie might have said. It sure wouldn’t have been SW killed the girls.

I’ve watched the video of CW “confessing” to Ronnie in the interview room more times than I can count. When CW says SW strangled the girls Ronnie asks “strangled or smothered?” or “strangled, not smothered?”. By the time that video was released the DA had said at the sentencing hearing autopsy found death was caused by smothering. Seems a strange question for Ronnie to ask unless he had previously been told the girls were smothered.

Assuming CW confessed to Ronnie on the way back from the airport I wonder if he also told him the girls were alive when he left the house. I always thought Ronnie looked more confused than horrified in the interview room tape. He made some “horrified” comments but to me they rang false and I chalk them up to knowing he was on camera and being careful not to say anything that would contradict his kid’s latest story.

There’s also speculation that when LE dropped Ronnie off at his hotel one of the bags Ronnie brought in with him was the same bag CW was seen moving earlier in the week. Though there is no proof, IMO that’s what became of the girl’s missing blankets.

Of course CW should have hired an attorney right away, and thank God he didn’t. It’s an even bigger miracle Ronnie didn’t insist he shut up and hire a lawyer as soon as CW indicated he was going to confess. Wouldn’t be surprised if MaMa Watts berates him for it daily.

I agree with every word of this. His behavior was simply bizarre at the news of their deaths, ready to whip out that photo. No grief, he wasn't stunned. Why would he have thought of that, to communicate that doll photo to the investigators? That would have been the LAST thing on my mind if my son had just admitted killing his wife, seeing his children blue, not calling 911, and disposing of the bodies. Did CW tell his father in that confession that he stuffed the kids in the oil tanks? I don't think so. Why didn't Ronnie ask WHERE he had taken them, wouldn't that be the most logical question to blurt out? Because he already knew?
And all the "hurt 'em" euphemisms. What'd you do next, dump the bodies? As though, of course that would be the normal course of action with the Watts family.

I just hadn't thought of it the way you put it, but it all makes sense. Ronnie was getting the story straight and he was also telling part of the story to the agents, to make sure it came out right and that CW wouldn't get it wrong. I don't believe Tammy really meant it when she said so warmly "I really like Ronnie!" Liked that he said so many nasty things about Shanann?

 

[Utsarah]

Yes! The “strangled, not smothered” comment always was a red flag to me. He didn’t even act shocked to hear his granddaughters were dead.

I still think all women need a friend like Shannan’s friend who trusted her gut and insisted that police get involved right away.

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

I kind of wondered if Chris thought that maybe asking for a lawyer would make him look like he had something to hide. I'm amazed his dad didn't insist on one. It would only have delayed the inevitable, though.

Haha he'd have to ask Mother first, She would never allow that, because it would reflect bad on her,and her main goal was always to smear Shannan,and since he can't think for himself he goes along with everything Mother says.
MOO

 

[WhatDidYouDo]

I think CW thought he had much more time than he did. It all pretty much played out from start to finish in less than 48 hours, iirc, assuming Shannan died at 5am and the babies at 6.

The fact that none of his ducks were in a proverbial row makes me think the act itself was spontaneous in regards to WHEN it happened but 100% premeditated that it was GOING to happen.

ETA: I believe the rings were in the Lexus when he went back to the house and that's what he grabs from the car....which suggests to me that he was going to do something with both.

I only watched a few minutes of the Oxygen special where Tammy talked about giving him the idea to blame Shanann. I understand her priority was to locate Shanann at the time. But hadn't they already located Shanann's burial site by that point and seen Bella's hair on the hatch as well as noticing both hatches had been opened recently?

I still don't understand why CW wasn't at least held for questioning during the wellness check and the home secured as a probable crime scene. Since the front door was latched from the inside and the car and car seats were still in the garage, it should have been obvious that the only way they left that house was in his truck. The neighbor's security camera would have picked up Shanann's leaving through the garage with the girls.

On top of all that CW was acting very suspicious, especially when watching the security footage at Nate's. CW even said during the prison interview and in a letter to Cadle that he thought the jig was up right then. If only they had looked at the footage more closely then and identified what was likely him picking up Bella and putting her into the truck. Even if they had just bluffed him knowing that he was walking back and forth loading his truck, he admitted that he would have completely spilled the beans right then.

And did LE seriously need Frank Rzucek to tell them to check the truck GPS????

IIRC, Nate also told the detectives that CW knew about the camera angle because he asked for some footage a couple weeks beforehand, using the lie that his truck had been broken into as an excuse. Given that CW knew what the camera would pick up and her car was was still in the garage, he thought he was already busted.

Doesn't it stand to reason that he had a plan to dispose of her car, but didn't count on the wellness check? I don't believe he has ever been questioned about his plans for her car, which could turn up whether he had an accomplice or not.
MOO

 

[WhatDidYouDo]

So, my take on the Watt's fam is that they have spent their lives blaming other people for just about everything so it would be quite natural for them to search for reasons to blame Shannan for her own death. I mean they literally found something wrong with Shannan from the first hello while the rest of the world who encountered Shannan in life thought she was quite lovely from the first hello. And those of us who have only come to know her through her death also think she seemed pretty damn awesome. So it's really no surprise to me they came with evidence in hand. That's their usual M.O. - btw, these are the same people who had space in their heart for the mistress and not for the wife.

I agree with every word of this. His behavior was simply bizarre at the news of their deaths, ready to whip out that photo. No grief, he wasn't stunned. Why would he have thought of that, to communicate that doll photo to the investigators? That would have been the LAST thing on my mind if my son had just admitted killing his wife, seeing his children blue, not calling 911, and disposing of the bodies. Did CW tell his father in that confession that he stuffed the kids in the oil tanks? I don't think so. Why didn't Ronnie ask WHERE he had taken them, wouldn't that be the most logical question to blurt out? Because he already knew?
And all the "hurt 'em" euphemisms. What'd you do next, dump the bodies? As though, of course that would be the normal course of action with the Watts family.

I just hadn't thought of it the way you put it, but it all makes sense. Ronnie was getting the story straight and he was also telling part of the story to the agents, to make sure it came out right and that CW wouldn't get it wrong. I don't believe Tammy really meant it when she said so warmly "I really like Ronnie!" Liked that he said so many nasty things about Shanann?

 

[dixiegirl1035]

I think CW thought he had much more time than he did. It all pretty much played out from start to finish in less than 48 hours, iirc, assuming Shannan died at 5am and the babies at 6.

The fact that none of his ducks were in a proverbial row makes me think the act itself was spontaneous in regards to WHEN it happened but 100% premeditated that it was GOING to happen.

ETA: I believe the rings were in the Lexus when he went back to the house and that's what he grabs from the car....which suggests to me that he was going to do something with both.

Yes, that bee line to get into the car will forever be unknown. He was getting something out of it MOO

 

[human]

I am still awe struck that he lived all of those years and no one knew he was an empty shell

 

[Artis]

I think CW thought he had much more time than he did. It all pretty much played out from start to finish in less than 48 hours, iirc, assuming Shannan died at 5am and the babies at 6.

The fact that none of his ducks were in a proverbial row makes me think the act itself was spontaneous in regards to WHEN it happened but 100% premeditated that it was GOING to happen.

ETA: I believe the rings were in the Lexus when he went back to the house and that's what he grabs from the car....which suggests to me that he was going to do something with both.

Good thought on the rings being in the car! Maybe so. As for the when, I think he'd decided since he called that guy he worked with to tell him he could handle whatever at the site alone on Monday morning.

 

[Seattle1]

I’ve watched the video of CW “confessing” to Ronnie in the interview room more times than I can count. When CW says SW strangled the girls Ronnie asks “strangled or smothered?” or “strangled, not smothered?”. By the time that video was released the DA had said at the sentencing hearing autopsy found death was caused by smothering. Seems a strange question for Ronnie to ask unless he had previously been told the girls were smothered.

^^sbm

I personally couldn't watch CW's interview blaming Shan'ann more than once but I faintly recall Ronnie shockingly asking CW if the girls were alive when he stuffed them in the oil tanks and CW is seemingly annoyed telling him no! Did anyone else see or recall that?

 

[DaisyKenny]

I think CW thought he had much more time than he did. It all pretty much played out from start to finish in less than 48 hours, iirc, assuming Shannan died at 5am and the babies at 6.

The fact that none of his ducks were in a proverbial row makes me think the act itself was spontaneous in regards to WHEN it happened but 100% premeditated that it was GOING to happen.

ETA: I believe the rings were in the Lexus when he went back to the house and that's what he grabs from the car....which suggests to me that he was going to do something with both.

‘I had to put the girls in the tanks so they wouldn’t get up the second time’: SHOCK confession from killer dad Chris Watts, who now says he planned family murder, and had earlier tried to kill his daughters: Report

“August 12th when I finished putting the girls to bed, I walked away and said ‘That’s the last time I’m going to be tucking my babies in,'” Watts reportedly said. “I knew what was going to happen the day before and I did nothing to stop it!’ he wrote.
​

I actually believe he knew the particular day ahead of time but just didn't count on the flight delay and the wellness check.

It is just my uneducated opinion that if the police had used a simple process of elimination to determine that his family could have only left through the garage, they could have detained CW briefly while reviewing the rest of the security footage from that morning. Once they deduced that the only way his family could have left was in his truck, he should have been arrested, IMO.

I think if he had been confronted with the fact that they knew had to have put them in the truck, his confession that day would have matched what he gave them at the prison if Tammy hadn't given him the idea to blame Shanann.

His original plan was to claim Shanann disappeared with the girls after threatening that he would never see them again when he asked for the separation. Of course he transitioned that into the source of his so-called rage in the prison interview.

I'll bet he was shocked when they didn't arrest him during the wellness check and that's why he was smirking in those porch interviews. Unfortunately for him, even Sandi Rzucek remembered his truck GPS and told LE.

No, he wouldn't have told the truth about his possible plan to dispose of her car, but if they had arrested him, seized his phones, protected the crime scene, etc, I believe we would have known for certain one way or the other if there was an accomplice since it wasn't until the next day that NK instructed him to delete everything.

 

[NuttMegg]

Is anyone else reading the Derhally book? I just finished it and am going to re-read the last half again tonight. I don't have the background in psychology to "review" it, I started flagging insightful parts on my kindle to share or discuss with the board, but now I have too many highlighted. Very well written.

 

[NuttMegg]

^^sbm

I personally couldn't watch CW's interview blaming Shan'ann more than once but I faintly recall Ronnie shockingly asking CW if the girls were alive when he stuffed them in the oil tanks and CW is seemingly annoyed telling him no! Did anyone else see or recall that?

I think that was Coder. CW said "no, no, God no". Paraphrased.