Separating FACT from fiction

No boxing match here okay?
Patsy's housekeeper LHP said she had caught JB and BR under the covers in BR's room on several occasions. She'd open the door, and the kids would scream at her to get out!

I never suggested BR lost it over one piece of pineapple. However, here are some points of anger triggers:
BR stated he got a bicycle for Christmas 1996. He looks down the stairs and noticed the handle bars “Vroom, Vroom”; he stated. But JR stated that only JB and PR got a bicycle that year; as seen in the Christmas photo. If BR did get a bicycle where did it go?
JB seemed to get lavish gifts that Christmas. Why did BR smear feces on JB Christmas box of chocolates? BR was the fecal smearer after all.
JB got a lot of activities that BR was forced to attend. He said he hated it. Can’t say I blame him.
It has been noted by JP that BR had angry outbursts.
JB would be given time out for stomping on BR legos. Maybe that was the nail, IMO.

Let me be clear here, I do not know for a fact which RDI? I only know it was a RDI.
Ask yourself one question. As overheard on the 911 call why did JR scream at BR “ We aren’t talking to you”? One child kidnapped and one safe?

Still waiting on your fruit cocktail served at the White’s party evidence.

I think people are prone to assign more meaning to certain things that are quite, in reality, quite common among all children. For example, all children have "angry outbursts." And all siblings fight, i.e. break lego creations, etc. All siblings hate attending each other's events. This is in no way any indication of murder; and I'd even argue that although the defecating is weird, that also doesn't indicate murder. What would indicate murder is if BR was involved in animal cruelty, etc. But toileting issues and typical sibling rivalry are just that.

The bike thing: if BR didn't get a bike (there is a report that he got one the Christmas before, but I digress), he wouldn't have waited to act out about it hours later. He received the best gift of all anyways, which was an N64 game system: a dream gift for any boy that year. JBR had the old Nintendo (as seen in her bedroom). So would she have been just as jealous of BR for receiving a brand new gaming system? Enough so to commit murder? Hard to believe, just as it's hard (for me, anyway) to believe BR would have been.
 
No boxing match here okay?
Still waiting on your fruit cocktail served at the White’s party evidence.

No boxing, haha. I don't mean this negatively, but to be fair, I'm still waiting on your exact sources too. I will accept that you saw LHP say that, but you never said where exactly you saw that -- but that's okay, I accept it, so let's move on from that. What I would like though instead is your source that cherries and grapes were found in JBR's intestinal tract -- because as far as I can recall, that is not indicated in the autopsy report.

I'll try to find my source for you, but I'm working, so it's doubtful I'll find it -- takes a while to scrounge.
 
So in my search for my source (that fruit cocktail was served at the W's Christmas party), I found a thread where people are discussing the false narrative put out by Paula W. that other fruit was found in JBR's system.

So, I suppose we both bit on false information. It's irrelevant if fruit cocktail was served at the Christmas party, because there was never any other food found in her system, but the pineapple. (which I'm glad about, because now I can stop looking :)

JonBenet Ramsey Documentary

This is from the autopsy report -- there is zero mention of "grapes" or anything else. It just lists the pineapple:

"G.I. Tract: The esophagus is empty. It is lined by gray-white mucosa. The stomach contains a small amount (8-10 cc) of viscous to green to tan colored thick mucous material without particulate matter identified. The gastric mucosa is autolyzed but contains no areas of hemorrhage or ulceration. The proximal portion of the small intestine contains fragmented pieces of yellow to light green-tan apparent vegetable or fruit material which may represent fragments of pineapple. No hemorrhage is identified. The remainder of the small intestine is unremarkable. The large intestine contains soft green fecal material. The appendix is present." source: https://www.documentingreality.com/forum/f227/jonben-t-ramsey-autopsy-report-159334/
 
10 months after the autopsy BPD finally decided to get an expert opinion on the analysis of JBR's stomach contents, and in October 1997 they met with experts at the Univ of Colorado-Boulder. In December 1997 they gave their report to BPD stating that grapes, grape skins, cherries, and pineapple were found in JBR. This is mentioned in Woodward's book, her sources are BPD Police Reports #1-1156 and #1-1349


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Here is the information in which you seek.
 
Here is the information in which you seek.

Okay, I figured this out (I think). As indicated in the AR, there was no other undigested (which is important here and I stress, undigested) fruit/food found in her stomach. The digested contents found were deemed (by those same University of Colorado experts, I'd imagine) that she must have eaten the cherries, etc. at the party, since it would have definitively taken hours for those contents to be digested.

So, based on the fact that those particular contents were long-digested, it was deduced that she had those items at the party; or if not at the party specifically, at least hours before she was murdered.

Also, from this thread, it would appear that Lin W. is a major proponent of this -- so I would take this "finding" with a gigantic grain of salt.

Contents of JonBenét Ramsey's Digestive System (Diagram) : JonBenetRamsey
 
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I used to think it had to be one of the three in the house. But after reading everyone's post, I now believe it was someone else who murdered her. I hope I live to see justice done for her.
 
I've seen it repeated in enough discussions about the case that Hoffman-Pugh said she caught the kids playing doctor that I'm assuming it's true but I've never seen an actual source for it. Does anyone have a link to something?

Also, I know this subject has been rehashed about a million times but I doubt it was BR who got fecal matter on the candy box. Patsy said JonBenet didn't wipe well. I think the most likely scenario is that JonBenet accidentally got poop on her fingers and then touched the box.
I've seen it repeated in enough discussions about the case that Hoffman-Pugh said she caught the kids playing doctor that I'm assuming it's true but I've never seen an actual source for it. Does anyone have a link to something?

Also, I know this subject has been rehashed about a million times but I doubt it was BR who got fecal matter on the candy box. Patsy said JonBenet didn't wipe well. I think the most likely scenario is that JonBenet accidentally got poop on her fingers and then touched the box.

Fairly frequently folks who trust the experts that JonBenét showed signs of healing injuries and prior molestation, will question who was the perpetrator. The bottom line is it is actually impossible to know. There’s no legal or medical information on it. While children that age have molested siblings ‘invasively’, it is not statistically as common as “invasive’ molestation by teenage siblings. It’s also impossible to know whether the low incidence of prepubescent molestation is even an accurate statistic because parents don’t report this. An interesting article about sexual behavior problems. 1

But since you asked for sources, it was the Globe who once reported a housekeeper discovering the two “playing doctor”. Later, in a lawsuit brought to the FFJ forum by poster cynic, the Globe indicated the information was from unnamed sources: Sources say Burke played "doctor" with JonBenet and, according to other sources, showed signs of being disturbed when he smeared feces in his bathroom.” 2 Of course we know that the fecal smearing happened when he was six.

There have been discreet comments about this from one family friend - JP, or “Cookie”, her hat on FFJ. Another poster on FFJ gave a third-hand uncorroborated report about this that came from an AG administrative employee whose reference for the information was JR.

I’ll PM you some additional related links rather than veer off on a thread of Separating Fact from Fiction.

1 Children with Sexual Behavior Problems | ATSA

2 In-Depth Discussion of Kolar's Book "Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet?"
 
I am positive I saw this information years ago on a acandyrose. It is no longer there. I recall it being on the left side of the page (under LHP) comments. I’ve been studying this case since the beginning and I know it wasn’t the Globe I found this information on. Just saying. This doesn’t dismiss the fact the Globe printed such information.
 
BR has said he never woke up and then later recanted to after everyone was in bed he went back downstairs. Whomever murdered JB was angry enough at her to hit her over the head hard enough) liken it to dropping her from a 3 story building. I. E. Parents balcony. It was a RDI. I see no cause for PR to get so angry with JB over bed wetting. BR was also wetting the bed. JR while he could have been the molester in the household we don’t know. What we do know is that JB was habitually sexually molested. We also know that BR and JB played doctor and even told the housekeeper to mind their own business when caught. I believe both children were victims of sexual abuse. I think it is very unusual for siblings of such a young age to play doctor. Unless they are taught, children of this age are not that familiar with sexuality to this degree. It could have been JAR or grandpa P, or even PR that was the abuser. Although I find the later extremely hard to except. As for the fruit cocktail the Whites have not confirmed they served it at the Christmas party. But the pineapple was sourced to match to the rind coming from the R’s home. Also if you look at crime scene photos of the parents bed, one side of the covers weren’t pulled back nor was there an indentation in the pillow. BR has stated that a JB was awake when they arrived home. Reminds me of the Disney commercial where the kids can’t sleep because they are to excited. Everyone in the family tells one story and then another. If there is nothing to hide, then why?

People get mad enough to hurt kids over bed wetting all the time. It's a common trigger.

Where are you getting your stats on siblings who "play doctor"? In some studies, as many as one-third of college students say that during childhood they had sexually oriented play with a sibling or cousin. A lot of psychologists would disagree with you about children having to be "taught" sexuality. See Theo Sandfort's book for a thorough analysis of how little we know about childhood sexuality and what the current evidence (and research) is.
 
I have just finished this entire thread and I think it’s important to clarify something that was discussed very early in the thread: The Polygraphs.

Typically, people who take polygraphs or those who agree to take polygraphs don’t normally make it a pre-requisite to have their own personal polygraphs completed on their own dime. Sure, it happens, but it’s pretty rare. Having said that, there was discussion of PR taking an initial polygraph at one point, the results of which were “inconclusive.”

“Inconclusive” as it pertains to polygraph results is a technical term; not a general term. In order to show a “pass” or “fail” on a polygraph exam, the examiner would need to show that the subject met a points-based threshold either on the “Deceptive” side or the “No Deception” side. I’m not going to discuss what the current threshold is, but it’s not unusual to have someone show deception on a polygraph exam, yet not have enough points to meet the threshold of failure for being “Deceptive”. The same is true on the “No Deception” side of that coin. If the threshold is not met, then you can’t say that they passed or failed and it is deemed “inconclusive.”

I say all of that to say this: If PR & JR went through the trouble of hiring their own polygraph examiner, then they probably had input on how the questions would be worded. If they did all of that and still ended up with an inconclusive result, that is a MAJOR indicator of guilt. I couldn’t say one way or the other if that guilt would be a murderer’s guilt or the guilt of a parent who lost a child, but it’s a strong indicator that something is amiss.
 
People get mad enough to hurt kids over bed wetting all the time. It's a common trigger.

Where are you getting your stats on siblings who "play doctor"? In some studies, as many as one-third of college students say that during childhood they had sexually oriented play with a sibling or cousin. A lot of psychologists would disagree with you about children having to be "taught" sexuality. See Theo Sandfort's book for a thorough analysis of how little we know about childhood sexuality and what the current evidence (and research) is.
I should have used the word incest. The age difference here is also a marker.
 
I've never believed any of the Ramsey's killed JonBenet. I think it was some vile peado that spotted her at either one of her pageants or in the area near her home while she was playing (developing a murderous fixation). This is one of those cases I'd dearly love to see justice come about in my lifetime so there's some resolution / closure gained for her family.
Maybe one day there will be a match to the DNA found at the scene etc.
 
I have a question, If there was no sexual abuse why was there vaginal inflammation? was this from the paint brush or am I just confused.
 
I have a question, If there was no sexual abuse why was there vaginal inflammation? was this from the paint brush or am I just confused.
In August, the Boulder police department contacted Dr. John McCann, one of the nation’s leading experts on child sexual abuse. McCann had agreed to assist the police department in determining if JonBenet had been a victim of sexual abuse during or before her murder. McCann was sent the autopsy report and photos. According to McCann, examination findings that indicate chronic sexual abuse include the thickness of the rim of the hymen, irregularity of the edge of the hymen, the width or narrowness of the wall of the hymen, and exposure of structures of the vagina normally covered by the hymen. His report stated that there was evidence of prior hymeneal trauma as all of these criteria were seen in the post mortem examination of JonBenet.

There was a three dimensional thickening from inside to outside on the inferior hymeneal rim with a bruise apparent on the external surface of the hymen and a narrowing of the hymeneal rim from the edge of the hymen to where it attaches to the muscular portion of the vaginal openings. At the narrowing area, there appeared to be very little if any hymen present. There was also exposure of the vaginal rugae, a structure of the vagina which is normally covered by an intact hymen. The hymeneal orifice measured one centimeter which is abnormal or unusual for this particular age group and is further evidence of prior sexual abuse with a more recent injury as shown by the bruised area on the inferior hymeneal rim. A generalized increase in redness of the tissues of the vestibule was apparent, and small red flecks of blood were visible around the perineum and the external surface of the genitalia. It was his opinion that the injury appeared to have been caused by a relatively small, very firm object which, due to the area of bruising, had made very forceful contact not only with the hymen, but also with the tissues surrounding the hymen. McCann believed that the object was forcefully jabbed in – not just shoved in. Although the bruised area would indicate something about the size of a finger nail, he did not believe it was a finger, because of the well demarcated edges of the bruise indicating an object much firmer than a finger. McCann was not able to see any fresh tears of the hymen which he thought might be due to the lack of detail in the photographs. It was unclear where the blood on the perineum originated, since there were no lacerations visible in these photos. McCann also noted that in children of this age group the labia, or vaginal lips, remain closed until literally manually separated. In order for there to be an injury to the hymen without injuring the labia, the labia would have to be manually separated before the object was inserted. The examination also indicated that the assault was done while the child was still alive because of the redness in the surrounding tissue and blood in the area.

McCann stated that this injury would have been very painful because the area of the injury as indicated by the bruise was at the base of the hymen were most of the nerve endings are located. Such an injury would have caused a six year old child to scream or yell. The doctor also stated that he assumed the object did not have jagged edges because there were no evidence of tears in the bruised area.

McCann also noted that there appeared to be a bruise on the inner right thigh which he though might represent a thumb imprint from forcing the legs apart.

Dr. McCann explained the term "chronic abuse" meant only that it was "repeated", but that the number of incidents could not be determined. In the case of JonBenet, the doctor could only say that there was evidence of “prior abuse". The examination results were evidence that there was at least one prior penetration of the vagina through the hymeneal membrane. The change in the hymeneal structure is due to healing from a prior penetration. However, it was not possible to determine the number of incidents nor over what period of time. Because the prior injury had healed, any other incidents of abuse probably were more than 10 days prior.

In discussing perpetrators of sexual abuse on children, McCann stated that the majority of children this age are molested by someone with whom they have close contact most commonly family members. He explained that if the molester is a stranger or someone else with whom the child is not close, the child will usually tell someone or psychological problems appear which create behavior changes observed by their parents. Common symptoms would be eating disorders, nightmares or a variety of behaviors indicating that something is bothering them. Commencement or increased bedwetting is also commonly seen in sexually abused children. When asked about JonBenet's sexualized behavior during her pageant performances, McCann said that this was not necessarily a sign of abuse, since this was taught behavior for the pageants. Also, with children's exposure to sexually explicit television programs, sexualized behavior is no longer considered to be an indication of possible sexual abuse.

Dr. Andrew Sirotnack from Children’s Hospital in Denver was also asked to review the medical findings and autopsy photographs. He confirmed McCann's determination of acute vaginal trauma during the assault on JonBenet, but He had not yet concluded that there was chronic abuse. Sirotnack had examined over 2,500 abused children during his career at Children's Hospital and had testified in approximately 50 - 100 criminal trials regarding sexual abuse on children.

In September 1997, the police department held a meeting with McCann and three other child sexual abuse experts to go over their opinions based on their review of the autopsy results. Dr. Virginia Rau of Dade County, Florida stated that she observed fresh hymeneal trauma on JonBenet and chronic inflammation that was not related to any urination issues. Dr. Rau said, “In my heart, this is chronic abuse,” but feared that a defense argument would be made that this was only evidence of masturbation.

Also agreeing with the findings of both McCann and Rau was Dr. Jim Monteleone of St. Louis. Dr. Richard Krugman, Dean of the University of Colorado Medical School, an expert first contacted for assistance in the Ramsey case by the D.A.’s office, was the most adamant supporter of the finding of chronic sexual abuse. He felt that in considering the past and present injuries to the hymen that the bedwetting/soiling took on enormous significance. He believed that this homicide was an indecent of “toilet rage” and subsequent cover up. He told the group of experts and detectives about another Colorado case where both parents had been at home and both were charged. “The JonBenet case is a text book example of toileting abuse rage," Krugman stated.

All of the experts agreed that there was no way any of the recent or chronic abuse damage to the genitalia of the child was the result of masturbation."
 
In August, the Boulder police department contacted Dr. John McCann, one of the nation’s leading experts on child sexual abuse. McCann had agreed to assist the police department in determining if JonBenet had been a victim of sexual abuse during or before her murder. McCann was sent the autopsy report and photos. According to McCann, examination findings that indicate chronic sexual abuse include the thickness of the rim of the hymen, irregularity of the edge of the hymen, the width or narrowness of the wall of the hymen, and exposure of structures of the vagina normally covered by the hymen. His report stated that there was evidence of prior hymeneal trauma as all of these criteria were seen in the post mortem examination of JonBenet.

There was a three dimensional thickening from inside to outside on the inferior hymeneal rim with a bruise apparent on the external surface of the hymen and a narrowing of the hymeneal rim from the edge of the hymen to where it attaches to the muscular portion of the vaginal openings. At the narrowing area, there appeared to be very little if any hymen present. There was also exposure of the vaginal rugae, a structure of the vagina which is normally covered by an intact hymen. The hymeneal orifice measured one centimeter which is abnormal or unusual for this particular age group and is further evidence of prior sexual abuse with a more recent injury as shown by the bruised area on the inferior hymeneal rim. A generalized increase in redness of the tissues of the vestibule was apparent, and small red flecks of blood were visible around the perineum and the external surface of the genitalia. It was his opinion that the injury appeared to have been caused by a relatively small, very firm object which, due to the area of bruising, had made very forceful contact not only with the hymen, but also with the tissues surrounding the hymen. McCann believed that the object was forcefully jabbed in – not just shoved in. Although the bruised area would indicate something about the size of a finger nail, he did not believe it was a finger, because of the well demarcated edges of the bruise indicating an object much firmer than a finger. McCann was not able to see any fresh tears of the hymen which he thought might be due to the lack of detail in the photographs. It was unclear where the blood on the perineum originated, since there were no lacerations visible in these photos. McCann also noted that in children of this age group the labia, or vaginal lips, remain closed until literally manually separated. In order for there to be an injury to the hymen without injuring the labia, the labia would have to be manually separated before the object was inserted. The examination also indicated that the assault was done while the child was still alive because of the redness in the surrounding tissue and blood in the area.

McCann stated that this injury would have been very painful because the area of the injury as indicated by the bruise was at the base of the hymen were most of the nerve endings are located. Such an injury would have caused a six year old child to scream or yell. The doctor also stated that he assumed the object did not have jagged edges because there were no evidence of tears in the bruised area.

McCann also noted that there appeared to be a bruise on the inner right thigh which he though might represent a thumb imprint from forcing the legs apart.

Dr. McCann explained the term "chronic abuse" meant only that it was "repeated", but that the number of incidents could not be determined. In the case of JonBenet, the doctor could only say that there was evidence of “prior abuse". The examination results were evidence that there was at least one prior penetration of the vagina through the hymeneal membrane. The change in the hymeneal structure is due to healing from a prior penetration. However, it was not possible to determine the number of incidents nor over what period of time. Because the prior injury had healed, any other incidents of abuse probably were more than 10 days prior.

In discussing perpetrators of sexual abuse on children, McCann stated that the majority of children this age are molested by someone with whom they have close contact most commonly family members. He explained that if the molester is a stranger or someone else with whom the child is not close, the child will usually tell someone or psychological problems appear which create behavior changes observed by their parents. Common symptoms would be eating disorders, nightmares or a variety of behaviors indicating that something is bothering them. Commencement or increased bedwetting is also commonly seen in sexually abused children. When asked about JonBenet's sexualized behavior during her pageant performances, McCann said that this was not necessarily a sign of abuse, since this was taught behavior for the pageants. Also, with children's exposure to sexually explicit television programs, sexualized behavior is no longer considered to be an indication of possible sexual abuse.

Dr. Andrew Sirotnack from Children’s Hospital in Denver was also asked to review the medical findings and autopsy photographs. He confirmed McCann's determination of acute vaginal trauma during the assault on JonBenet, but He had not yet concluded that there was chronic abuse. Sirotnack had examined over 2,500 abused children during his career at Children's Hospital and had testified in approximately 50 - 100 criminal trials regarding sexual abuse on children.

In September 1997, the police department held a meeting with McCann and three other child sexual abuse experts to go over their opinions based on their review of the autopsy results. Dr. Virginia Rau of Dade County, Florida stated that she observed fresh hymeneal trauma on JonBenet and chronic inflammation that was not related to any urination issues. Dr. Rau said, “In my heart, this is chronic abuse,” but feared that a defense argument would be made that this was only evidence of masturbation.

Also agreeing with the findings of both McCann and Rau was Dr. Jim Monteleone of St. Louis. Dr. Richard Krugman, Dean of the University of Colorado Medical School, an expert first contacted for assistance in the Ramsey case by the D.A.’s office, was the most adamant supporter of the finding of chronic sexual abuse. He felt that in considering the past and present injuries to the hymen that the bedwetting/soiling took on enormous significance. He believed that this homicide was an indecent of “toilet rage” and subsequent cover up. He told the group of experts and detectives about another Colorado case where both parents had been at home and both were charged. “The JonBenet case is a text book example of toileting abuse rage," Krugman stated.

All of the experts agreed that there was no way any of the recent or chronic abuse damage to the genitalia of the child was the result of masturbation."

Honestly what ! a six year old masturbating especially with how much pain that would cause to such a young girl!!!!
 
I should have used the word incest. The age difference here is also a marker.

Okay, I think I get what you're saying. There will probably always be a debate about when to call it "incest" and when to call it "sex play" (and some intermediate category, like molestation).

Thank you so much for taking the time to write the above summary of the expert opinion. It's grim stuff, but it's at the core of this case. If a stranger did all of this, that stranger was able to do it over a period of time.
 
Okay, I think I get what you're saying. There will probably always be a debate about when to call it "incest" and when to call it "sex play" (and some intermediate category, like molestation).

Thank you so much for taking the time to write the above summary of the expert opinion. It's grim stuff, but it's at the core of this case. If a stranger did all of this, that stranger was able to do it over a period of time.

Indeed. And you are most welcome!
Also they were able to:
  • write a three page ransom note with PR note pad and pen and put them back where they belonged
  • feed JB fruit cocktail (pineapple from walk in)
  • dress JB in her cousin’s (Christmas present) size 12 bloomies
  • find BR knife in the 2nd floor laundry room cabinet
  • get JR shirt to wipe the blood from JB privates
  • get PR jacket fibers in the paint tray, garrote, blanket and duct tape
  • wrap JB in her blanket from the basement dryer (per LHP) papoose style
  • deposit JB bloody Barbie nightgown containing touch dna from PR and BR
  • all without the families knowledge in the house that night.
  • Leave no trace evidence of a intruder.
Yet, the perp was all 4 levels of that house that night.
Let’s not forget they forgot to take the body for ransom.
That’s a bit much!
 
And people's theories keep adding more things to the perp's to do list (cover urine stain with paint tote so as to know where to clean; cut lengths of cord - fibers from cutting were found on second floor; make garrote; apply duct tape after death; wait 45-120 minutes between bashing head and strangulation - allows plenty of time for note writing, right?)

Locate object for the head injury (find the flashlight?)

I've always wondered why some of JBR's trophies were in disarray and whether one could have been used as a weapon (don't know how sturdy they might be).

Anyway, really appreciate your to do list, @Rain on my Parade
 

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