IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #7

[In vino veritas]

Apparently, RCL plans to re-file the motion to dismiss:
Royal Caribbean to refile motion to dismiss lawsuit from family of toddler who died - CNN

 

[al66pine]

PR's Negligent Homicide Statute?

If I'm correct, what SA is being charged with carries a maximum sentence of three years. It seems odd to call that a misdemeanor. While I think some states have varied a bit on this in recent years, one year is the traditional (common law) line between felony and misdemeanor. Some laws do not rely on whether a state happens to call something a felony or a misdemeanor or something else, but go by how long the maximum sentence is.

@Wehwalt sbm bbm Yes, agree, ^ seems odd.
Below is what I found in English (Spanish is the only official language of PR judiciary system*) a while back, was searching for annotated statutes, did not locate, got distracted, no link. I invite anyone to dig in for other info re statute, to correct or clarify, perhaps a more current version. Re your question about sentence, if statute below is applicable, "Negligent Homicide" is classified as a misdemeanor, but the penalty is same as for a 4th degree felony, essentially 6 mo. to 3 yrs imprisonment, and parole eligibility after serving half of sentence.
"§ 4737. Negligent homicide
Any person who causes the death of another through negligence shall incur a misdemeanor, but shall receive the penalty established for a fourth degree felony...." [more re DUI vehicular deaths, n/a here]
"§ 4694. Applicable penalties
"(e) Fourth degree felony. — Entails a punishment of imprisonment for a fixed term in natural years which shall not be less than six (6) months and one (1) day, nor more than three (3) years. In such case, the person may be considered for parole by the Parole Board upon having served fifty percent (50%) of the term of imprisonment imposed." bbm.
from Laws of Puerto Rico Annotated, 33 L.P.R.A. § 4737
^^^ Again, inviting anyone to correct or clarify.^^^
____________________________________________
* "The official languages of the executive branch of government of Puerto Rico are Spanish and English, with Spanish being the primary language. Spanish is, and has been, the only official language of the entire Commonwealth judiciary system....However, all official business of the U.S. District Court for the District of Puerto Rico is conducted in English...." bbm Puerto Rico - Wikipedia

 

[Lawsmygame2]

PR's Negligent Homicide Statute?
@Wehwalt sbm bbm Yes, agree, ^ seems odd.
Below is what I found in English (Spanish is the only official language of PR judiciary*) a while back, was searching for annotated statutes, did not locate, got distracted, no link. I invite anyone to dig in for other info re statute, to correct or clarify, perhaps a more current version. Re your question about sentence, if statute below is applicable, "Negligent Homicide" is classified as a misdemeanor, but the penalty is same as for a 4th degree felony, essentially 6 mo. to 3 yrs imprisonment, and parole eligibility after serving half of sentence.
"§ 4737. Negligent homicide
Any person who causes the death of another through negligence shall incur a misdemeanor, but shall receive the penalty established for a fourth degree felony...." [more re DUI vehicular deaths, n/a here]
"§ 4694. Applicable penalties
"(e) Fourth degree felony. — Entails a punishment of imprisonment for a fixed term in natural years which shall not be less than six (6) months and one (1) day, nor more than three (3) years. In such case, the person may be considered for parole by the Parole Board upon having served fifty percent (50%) of the term of imprisonment imposed." bbm.
from Laws of Puerto Rico Annotated, 33 L.P.R.A. § 4737
^^^ Again, inviting anyone to correct or clarify.^^^
____________________________________________
* "The official languages of the executive branch of government of Puerto Rico are Spanish and English, with Spanish being the primary language. Spanish is, and has been, the only official language of the entire Commonwealth judiciary system....However, all official business of the U.S. District Court for the District of Puerto Rico is conducted in English...." bbm Puerto Rico - Wikipedia

Based on the language of the penalty statute, it seems that if SA is found guilty he must serve at least (mandatory minimum) of 6 months but no more than 3 years. So just probation would not be an option. Anyone else have any thoughts on this and on whether a plea agreement or a guilty verdict could result in just probation.

 

[neesaki]

I wonder if SA was looking out the window the first time to make sure there would be nothing to break the fall of CW. I feel awful for having these thoughts, but nothing surprises me sometimes when I read about parents who have taken their children’s lives.

It sure appeared he was scoping out that concrete pier for some reason, didn’t it? Think about it, how he used his arms and pulled himself through the window, then stuck his head out and looked around, as though surveying.

Then within seconds he turned around, bent down and picked up little Chloe and hefted her up to the window, like she was nothing but a bag of chicken feed.

Then he does this front and back motion thing, as though he’s swinging her or something. Now why in Gods name would an adult man, much less a grandparent, be doing that with a baby over a 150 ft drop ? O.M.G. There’s no logic whatsoever.

All said and done, IMO his actions appeared to be purposeful. I honestly don’t know how else to interpret it. Jmo

 

[neesaki]

Based on the language of the penalty statute, it seems that if SA is found guilty he must serve at least (mandatory minimum) of 6 months but no more than 3 years. So just probation would not be an option. Anyone else have any thoughts on this and on whether a plea agreement or a guilty verdict could result in just probation.

The only thing ever stated, as I recall, was a potential plea deal offering probation. But this was stated by the defense, not the prosecution. And, SA wasn’t going to accept it... who knows if it was even officially offered.
Again, as I recall.

I personally hope and pray the prosecution offers no plea deal to SA. IMO, any man like him is a danger and menace to society.

 

[neesaki]

If I'm correct, what SA is being charged with carries a maximum sentence of three years. It seems odd to call that a misdemeanor. While I think some states have varied a bit on this in recent years, one year is the traditional (common law) line between felony and misdemeanor.

Some laws do not rely on whether a state happens to call something a felony or a misdemeanor or something else, but go by how long the maximum sentence is.

I would be curious to know which of his current activities SA would be unable to participate in if he was convicted of a felony. He wouldn't be allowed to possess a gun, for one thing. No idea if he presently does.

Well with your post you raised a really good question, as to why KSW stated “misdemeanor “ in her statement. It’s as though she’s somewhat downplaying the killing of her daughter..... to a misdemeanor. Why would a mother do that when it’s her own child? IDK

 

[neesaki]

DPOST

 

[Lawsmygame2]

Well with your post you raised a really good question, as to why KSW stated “misdemeanor “ in her statement. It’s as though she’s somewhat downplaying the killing of her daughter..... to a misdemeanor. Why would a mother do that when it’s her own child? IDK

Yes...states “misdemeanor” twice in her statement. Almost like she is implying that Chloe’s death is insignificant. As a mother and a grandmother, I can not imagine not wanting or demanding justice for my child or grandchild if someone harmed them. Their immediate intentions and rush to file a lawsuit before the investigation was complete baffles me. Why would you take the word of the person who was literally the reason your child fell to her death before a thorough investigation had been completed? And, even if you “unequivocally” believed that RCCL was at fault, why would you be thinking about filing a lawsuit even before your child’s body had been taken home or funeral services had been held? And, as the father whose daughter just died a tragic death, how could you return to the scene within a few hours of your daughter’s death to take pictures of the windows? IMO, the father’s actions proves that, within hours of her death, they were setting the stage for a lawsuit. Which begs the question...when was the first time the parents were allowed to speak with SA?

I just don’t understand. IMO, there are so many unnatural things about all of the events surrounding Chloe’s death. Unfortunately, we may never know the answers.

Kim Wiegand: “Royal Caribbean played a major role in the death of our child.”

 

[MsMarple]

Revisiting the December 19 CNN.com article I stop and ponder this quote from KW: "Our family has already lost everything; what purpose could possibly be served by prosecuting a misdemeanor offense?" (bbm).

The word choice, the tone, really strike me. As if to say, "Killing Chloe is such a minor offense, why bother prosecuting her killer?" This is Chloe's mother for God's sakes, and she dismisses Chloe's life so callously. Did they love Chloe at all??? That poor child, I have to wonder what her home life was really like. RIP little girl.

IMO it's telling that she said "misdemeanor offense" and not "negligent homicide" which is what the actual charge is.

I wonder if she can't bring herself to face the actual charge and so she minimizes it to a simple misdemeanor. Denial. IMO the family will never be able to grieve unless they acknowledge SA's reckless actions. MOO.

 

[katydid23]

I cannot imagine ever putting my mother's boyfriend over my own child.

 

[al66pine]

....I would be curious to know which of his current activities SA would be unable to participate in if he was convicted of a felony. He wouldn't be allowed to possess a gun, for one thing. No idea if he presently does.

@Wehwalt sbm bbmInteresting question. IDK if SA is/was resident of IN (In July, MSM reported Valparaiso IN) or Niles MI (as was reported later). For both states, the gun laws seems to focus mostly on preventing felons from buying/owning guns.
Indiana, Loss of Firearm Rights, Restoration of Firearm Rights Gun laws in Indiana - Wikipedia
Michigan Gun laws in Michigan - Wikipedia

Were there other issues you were thinking of? Voting? Or something else?

 

[LietKynes]

I cannot imagine ever putting my mother's boyfriend over my own child.

Maybe SA has some 'dirt' on them ?

 

[justice4allnow]

I also should have added it will be VERY interesting to see what any witnesses have to say about what they observed. I assume RCCL will have access to witness info from the criminal trial. Or would they have to have recorded contact info from potential witnesses following the incident? Employees are easy but I doubt they had their lawyers take statements from passengers at the time. Or would they have?

El Vocero reported after the incident that LE interviews were immediately held with witnesses for the criminal trial. I assume that evidence will be available to both sides in the civil trial. I believe that the El Vocero article which mentions the witness interviews is in our media timeline.

 

[Snoods]

Maybe he gave them the idea. And he will help them get an 'expert' to sell it to the jury.

Ever since the expert witness, forensic pathologist Michael Baden testified at the trial of OJ Simpson on behalf of the defense, my “ohhh ahhh they are famous and EXPERT, they must be right” bubble was burst.

I now give expert witnesses no credence at all, they will perform like dancing monkeys (which I don’t endorse either) for the highest bidder. Anyone who donates to the family’s Givememoneys are helping SA hire a more well-known, well-spoken expert witness.

 

[Snoods]

Yes...states “misdemeanor” twice in her statement. Almost like she is implying that Chloe’s death is insignificant. As a mother and a grandmother, I can not imagine not wanting or demanding justice for my child or grandchild if someone harmed them. Their immediate intentions and rush to file a lawsuit before the investigation was complete baffles me. Why would you take the word of the person who was literally the reason your child fell to her death before a thorough investigation had been completed? And, even if you “unequivocally” believed that RCCL was at fault, why would you be thinking about filing a lawsuit even before your child’s body had been taken home or funeral services had been held? And, as the father whose daughter just died a tragic death, how could you return to the scene within a few hours of your daughter’s death to take pictures of the windows? IMO, the father’s actions proves that, within hours of her death, they were setting the stage for a lawsuit. Which begs the question...when was the first time the parents were allowed to speak with SA?

I just don’t understand. IMO, there are so many unnatural things about all of the events surrounding Chloe’s death. Unfortunately, we may never know the answers.

Kim Wiegand: “Royal Caribbean played a major role in the death of our child.”

I don’t think I would even be able to utter my child’s name without breaking down after such a dreadful death, much less callously refer to her as a misdemeanor. Twice.

My head also spins at how quickly Dad was at the scene of his daughter’s gruesome death, taking pictures for their lawsuit. I believe it was within several hours of Chloe’s death.

 

[Snoods]

bbm
Omg.
There was speculation from passengers that he may have attempted this earlier but people saw him and stopped him.
Hoping they'll come forward.

Wow, if this is true. I’ve read that a staff member saw what he was doing and was trying to stop him, but it was during the same incident which caused Chloe’s death, not two separate incidents. Wasn’t SA only alone with her for fifteen minutes? What would his motive be? Surely this has not put him in good stead with his wife, Chloe’s maternal grandmother.

I have always been with the camp that he did not deliberately murder her. His motive, why? What would he stand to gain? Perhaps he has a borderline personality disorder. (Otherwise known as a psychopath.) He certainly was playing fast and loose with Chloe’s life.

I don’t know if he is being pressured by the family to go along with their narrative, but if he is may I add SA is an idiot as well as a negligent, lazy, careless, ne’er do well big fat liar.

 

[Wehwalt]

Just a reminder. SA is not a party to the civil suit. In the civil suit RCCL is defending itself against accusations of negligence. Not sure to what extent RCCL’s defense will hinge on trying to prove SA was negligent.

Do our lawyer members have an idea?

I think there is some chance that RC will join SA as a third-party defendant. Under the Federal Rules, they can do so without the court's permission up until 21 days after they file their answer. At that point (it's going to happen sooner or later), the civil case is going to start coming to a grinding halt because the criminal case is unresolved and so SA, whether a party or just a witness, cannot prejudice himself in the criminal case by participating in the civil one and he is obviously a witness who would be deposed.

I'm not familiar with the fine points of negligence law for ships (it is not the same from state to state) but yes, it looked to me from the motion to dismiss that they will say, in effect, that they can't be held negligent for allowing an adult to hold a kid over an 11 story drop because no reasonable person would do such a thing.

Regarding the criminal statute: I'd be surprised if Puerto Rico is locking up for six months everyone convicted of a class four felony. There will be some statute elsewhere allowing judges to suspend sentences/place on probation.

 

[HRH Phoebe Cat]

I wonder if SA was looking out the window the first time to make sure there would be nothing to break the fall of CW. I feel awful for having these thoughts, but nothing surprises me sometimes when I read about parents who have taken their children’s lives.

Once again, the need for more emphasis and attention to the speed, absolutely no hesitation and what appear to be very deliberate movements with which SA lifted little Chloe from floor to guardrail and beyond. SA spent eight seconds leaning over the guardrail immediately prior to picking up Chloe. The mind wants to reject what it is seeing, but it cannot after watching and rewatching the video.

ETA: Posted before reading @neesaki’s post. Very well put and thank you!

 

[JulieBEMT]

This civil suit is going to come down to whether RCCL can show through the video evidence that SA should reasonably have known the window was open. I'm not convinced the video will show his head conclusively breaking the plane of the glass unless the first gen video files or enhanced resolution files are much much clearer than what is currently in the public domain. The side view doesn't show his head and establishing it from the back view will be difficult. It will be interesting to see if clearer video shows that he spent significant time looking at the opening as opposed to down at the floor or at CW while he was holding her. Will also be interesting to see clearly how he was holding her and whether it looks like he was reaching out with his right hand. I don't believe MW will be able to establish that the windows posed a known risk. But if jurors believe SA thought the glass existed they may decide that the design of the windows did create a hidden danger and rule against RCCL. Let me just add that regardless of the outcome I personally believe sole responsibility lies with SA. If he thought there was glass it's because he was careless, not becuse of any flaw with the ship design.

All they would need to do is to take that jury onto that ship in the afternoon. They will immediately see that no reasonable person would assume/believe there to be glass there....IMO

This is the newspaper article from which I quoted with the info about Freedom and RCCL: Royal Caribbean reduce operaciones en la Isla

The article is incorrect. There was brief speculation about cruise lines pulling out of PR due to privatization of the port. But, all of the cruise lines came out to dispel those rumors. I'm a travel agent, and am able to book Freedom of the Seas out of San Juan at least through April of 2022.

 

[Montrealaise]

I cannot imagine ever putting my mother's boyfriend over my own child.

Boyfriend? I thought he was the mother's husband and that they married about 20 years ago, when KW was still a teenager.