Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #121

[PingTheRouter]

i haven't been keeping up over the last couple of years but i was here in the original threads when this happened

i can't believe we are this far along and we don't have the killers

 

[Falling Down]

With Liberty's dad trying to call them by 3:11 and not getting an answer, I'm thinking it might have been even earlier. I know there is some discussion about the 2:07 snapchat photo, but I wonder if the encounter took place at possibly 2:30 or even a little before. If that is the case and the murders committed within 15-20 minutes, or less, the killer could have been on his way to his vehicle by 3:11. Using that timeline, the killer could have been driving by 3:30 and on his way out of the area.

Have we ever heard of a definitive time frame that Liberty started the video?

Oops, I meant to say 2:30-2:40 when the attack happened at the CS.

Thanks.

 

[JnRyan]

Oops, I meant to say 2:30-2:40 when the attack happened at the CS.

Thanks.

Sounds like we are on the same page with this one. If could have made it to his vehicle in 20-25 minutes it is possible he was leaving when Liberty's dad made his 3:11 call. If he is the one that parked at the CPS building then it is possible that the only witnesses that saw him on the trail that day saw him before the murders.

 

[JohnnyChicago]

I have a question. I wonder if the hat BG is wearing is an old “pilot”, “fourage”, or “overseas” cap.

This...I swear, I see a wedge in the midst of it


And this is an old vintage Bunderswehr pilot cap. I assume discontinued in 1988.

Vintage military hat German air force cap German flight cap Luftwaffe side cap Bunderswehr Luftwaffe 1988 Size 61 Air Force Germany

So the color of the hat looks military khaki to me. The shape is like a pilot cap. The back flap is something the hat on my photo has. I think I see some logo, could it be the old round one from Bundesrepublik?

It that possible that the guy is a navy brat whose parents served in US army stationed in West Germany? Or, if he is older, could he himself have been stationed there in his youth? Or can the guy merely collect old vintage military items?

I can’t unsee a pilot hat.

It still has yet to be confirmed by the FBI if the murderer was wearing a hat. They still have yet to mention the suspect wearing a "hat" They do continue to mention a hoodie.
It is difficult to tell with such a short clip where the suspect is only taking 2 full steps and not completing a third step.. Very short loop. In certain paused frames, it can appear that he has no hat and that the hoodie is creating an illusion. His hair can appear to be combed downward.

"Investigators have distributed a photo (shown above) of a person observed on the Delphi Historic Trail. The photo appears to depict a White male wearing blue jeans, a blue coat/jacket, and a hoodie. During the course of the investigation, evidence has led investigators to believe the aforementioned person is suspected of being involved in the murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams."

LIBERTY GERMAN — FBI

 

[JohnnyChicago]

I still have to go back through all the threads. But I would guess that many people have already listened and are caught up on the latest Down the Hill Podcast?
I am going to revisit the recent two episodes again soon. In episode five, there is mention that the killer left a signature. Possibly three signatures. That is quite vague though and could be anything from maybe mutilating the body, to redressing the victims, positioning the bodies? I also recall one investigator thinking this is local because of where it occurred. This isn't a known place to outsiders and would seem odd for a drifter to decide on this particular location. I have to confirm who said that and what the exact quote was though. All interesting updates though.

 

[HockeyMom330]

With Liberty's dad trying to call them by 3:11 and not getting an answer, I'm thinking it might have been even earlier. I know there is some discussion about the 2:07 snapchat photo, but I wonder if the encounter took place at possibly 2:30 or even a little before. If that is the case and the murders committed within 15-20 minutes, or less, the killer could have been on his way to his vehicle by 3:11. Using that timeline, the killer could have been driving by 3:30 and on his way out of the area.

Have we ever heard of a definitive time frame that Liberty started the video?

Here's a link to a screenshot of one of the FBI billboards that mention the last seen 2.30 PM time for BG.

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, and Liberty (Libby) German, 14/The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #87

Hope it works.

I wonder if the 'last seen at 2:30pm" was a sighting by a witness (perhaps BG entering or exiting the area) or would there have been a timestamp on Libby's video--perhaps she recorded him at 2:30pm?

Either way I tend to think that the murders were done and BG was out of the woods long before DG tried texting/calling. If the girls were on the bridge heading SE at 2:07pm as per the snapchat photo, and we know it only takes <10 minutes to fully cross the bridge they should have reached the SE end well before 2:30pm. It appears BG approached them at the SE end, so I assume it was sometime around 2:15-2:20pm. I don't think it would take more that 15 minutes to get to their final resting place, which means they could have been killed by 2:30-2:45pm. Which witnesses were on the trails or under the bridge at this time?

 

[lucidtx]

Quick question - has the cause of death for the girls ever been released publicly?

 

[JnRyan]

Quick question - has the cause of death for the girls ever been released publicly?

No, they have not released it. I believe it was in one of the interviews (Dr. Oz?) where Liberty's grandfather stated that the family hasn't even been told.

 

[JohnnyChicago]

I wonder if the 'last seen at 2:30pm" was a sighting by a witness (perhaps BG entering or exiting the area) or would there have been a timestamp on Libby's video--perhaps she recorded him at 2:30pm?

Either way I tend to think that the murders were done and BG was out of the woods long before DG tried texting/calling. If the girls were on the bridge heading SE at 2:07pm as per the snapchat photo, and we know it only takes <10 minutes to fully cross the bridge they should have reached the SE end well before 2:30pm. It appears BG approached them at the SE end, so I assume it was sometime around 2:15-2:20pm. I don't think it would take more that 15 minutes to get to their final resting place, which means they could have been killed by 2:30-2:45pm. Which witnesses were on the trails or under the bridge at this time?

Do you or anyone recall at one point people thought that it was possible that a worker from the nearby Indiana Packers Plant possibly committed the crime? I think the meat packing plant employs a large population of males in that region. It is located 7 min (2.8 mi) via N Washington St and US-421 S via car from the Bridge.

There were some early speculations that the murderer was on lunch break. People went down the rabbit hole and were looking at video from the plant website and also a construction site where vehicles disappeared and returned in time frame similar to murders.

However, I can't imagine the murderer changing his clothes and returning to work after a horrible murder. But it isn't unheard of, I believe Gary Ridgeway the Green River Killer, Ted Bundy, and Dahmer often returned back to their normal routines immediately after a killing. Psychopaths can hide that fear or guilt emotion easily or just not feel it altogether.

 

[JnRyan]

I wonder if the 'last seen at 2:30pm" was a sighting by a witness (perhaps BG entering or exiting the area) or would there have been a timestamp on Libby's video--perhaps she recorded him at 2:30pm?

Either way I tend to think that the murders were done and BG was out of the woods long before DG tried texting/calling. If the girls were on the bridge heading SE at 2:07pm as per the snapchat photo, and we know it only takes <10 minutes to fully cross the bridge they should have reached the SE end well before 2:30pm. It appears BG approached them at the SE end, so I assume it was sometime around 2:15-2:20pm. I don't think it would take more that 15 minutes to get to their final resting place, which means they could have been killed by 2:30-2:45pm. Which witnesses were on the trails or under the bridge at this time?

I was assuming they were taking their time crossing - looking at the scenery, Abigail taking her time, etc. But yes, in your scenario the killer could have been driving down the Hoosier Hwy by the time DG attempted his first contact. I believe that is very likely.

 

[JohnnyChicago]

Quick question - has the cause of death for the girls ever been released publicly?

Nope. State police have often stated they will keep information from the public because they believe that this is a control thing for the murderer and they do not want him to have satisfaction of letting him know what they know about the case. It is just a matter of time. 3 years is frustrating. BG will slip up at some point. Perhaps get drunk and hint what he did to someone close to him.

 

[lucidtx]

Nope. State police have often stated they will keep information from the public because they believe that this is a control thing for the murderer and they do not want him to have satisfaction of letting him know what they know about the case. It is just a matter of time. 3 years is frustrating. BG will slip up at some point. Perhaps get drunk and hint what he did to someone close to him.

Yeah, this also the exact type of case that gets all sorts of weirdos coming forward with false confessions. Keeping COD secret helps them eliminate false confessions quickly. Thanks y'all.

 

[HockeyMom330]

Do you or anyone recall at one point people thought that it was possible that a worker from the nearby Indiana Packers Plant possibly committed the crime? I think the meat packing plant employs a large population of males in that region. It is located 7 min (2.8 mi) via N Washington St and US-421 S via car from the Bridge.

There were some early speculations that the murderer was on lunch break. People went down the rabbit hole and were looking at video from the plant website and also a construction site where vehicles disappeared and returned in time frame similar to murders.

However, I can't imagine the murderer changing his clothes and returning to work after a horrible murder. But it isn't unheard of, I believe Gary Ridgeway the Green River Killer, Ted Bundy, and Dahmer often returned back to their normal routines immediately after a killing. Psychopaths can hide that fear or guilt emotion easily or just not feel it altogether.

I seem to recall that LE took a pair of boots from Indiana Packers, presumably testing for evidence. I don't remember the source of this information, so consider it my speculation only. Would the employees have to punch a time card in/out? What time would shift change be...maybe it was someone who worked an 'early' shift and then stopped at the bridge on their way home.

 

[tresir2012]

I wonder if the 'last seen at 2:30pm" was a sighting by a witness (perhaps BG entering or exiting the area) or would there have been a timestamp on Libby's video--perhaps she recorded him at 2:30pm?

Either way I tend to think that the murders were done and BG was out of the woods long before DG tried texting/calling. If the girls were on the bridge heading SE at 2:07pm as per the snapchat photo, and we know it only takes <10 minutes to fully cross the bridge they should have reached the SE end well before 2:30pm. It appears BG approached them at the SE end, so I assume it was sometime around 2:15-2:20pm. I don't think it would take more that 15 minutes to get to their final resting place, which means they could have been killed by 2:30-2:45pm. Which witnesses were on the trails or under the bridge at this time?

I think the recording is what the last seen 2.30 pm time on the billboard refers to which means he was not seen by a witness after that time presumably? Yet isn't there a BG sighting near Freedom Bridge after that time IIRC?

 

[MaJor Tom]

I wonder if the 'last seen at 2:30pm" was a sighting by a witness (perhaps BG entering or exiting the area) or would there have been a timestamp on Libby's video--perhaps she recorded him at 2:30pm?

Either way I tend to think that the murders were done and BG was out of the woods long before DG tried texting/calling. If the girls were on the bridge heading SE at 2:07pm as per the snapchat photo, and we know it only takes <10 minutes to fully cross the bridge they should have reached the SE end well before 2:30pm. It appears BG approached them at the SE end, so I assume it was sometime around 2:15-2:20pm. I don't think it would take more that 15 minutes to get to their final resting place, which means they could have been killed by 2:30-2:45pm. Which witnesses were on the trails or under the bridge at this time?

I first heard about this murder when the MSM showed the photos Libby took of BG back in 2017. Not living in USA there was no domestic interest for continued coverage. So when I was catching up on a Casefile True Crime Podcast (Case 119 July 19) I fully expected the ending to say the case had been resolved and the killer would be sitting in a prison cell for the rest of his life. I couldn't believe that even with the video and stills not only had they not got the killer, they don't even have a (publicly named) POI.

I came to WS looking for more information and boy did I find it. I've read every thread since just before the 2nd year press conference and this story has so many twists and turns its difficult to see the way ahead. I'm no killer, I hate anything getting hurt, beaten or attacked. This means I can no more get inside this degenerates head any more than he could understand what goes on in mine. But despite all the changes in opinions I have had in this case I do not see BG as being motivated by anything other than cruelty and perversion.

He had those poor girls in his control, what ever he intended to do he was going to make it last as long as possible. Like a cat with a mouse or a dog with a rabbit, there is almost a regret when the prey dies. IMO He was enjoying his control when the phone rang at 3:11 and that spooked him. Maybe the girls ran for the creek but both he and they knew time was running out, and that is when the game ended and the end play began.

 

[Cutiekitty]

I think the recording is what the last seen 2.30 pm time on the billboard refers to which means he was not seen by a witness after that time presumably? Yet isn't there a BG sighting near Freedom Bridge after that time IIRC?

I’m wondering if LE got that time from preliminary investigation, but then later determined it was not correct. The billboards went up pretty quick and LE doesn’t currently advertise a last seen time as far as I’ve seen.

Edit: the times associated with this case are frustrating.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

I’m wondering if LE got that time from preliminary investigation, but then later determined it was not correct. The billboards went up pretty quick and LE doesn’t currently advertise a last seen time as far as I’ve seen.

Edit: the times associated with this case are frustrating.

Quoted bbm

I agree.

Several months after the 2nd sketch came into play, my mind changed about trusting the reported witness timeline sightings.

With the change in sketch and with the extreme differences between the two (JMO), I started to question who those witnesses actually saw.

I now only trust the following times:

• The time that they were dropped off (reported as approx 1:38/1:39 p.m.) and when Libby called D.G. to arrange their pick-up time.
• 2:07 snapchat photo upload time (even this has been a hot topic!)
• 3:11 p.m. when D.G. called Libby's phone the 1st time and she didn't answer.

JMO

 

[tresir2012]

I’m wondering if LE got that time from preliminary investigation, but then later determined it was not correct. The billboards went up pretty quick and LE doesn’t currently advertise a last seen time as far as I’ve seen.

Edit: the times associated with this case are frustrating.

The video would have a timestamp so they would have that detail though. Unless they then had a witness come forward later, after the billboards went up, who saw (or said they saw) BG leaving the cemetery or near Freedom Bridge or the CPS building. MOO.

 

[JnRyan]

I think the recording is what the last seen 2.30 pm time on the billboard refers to which means he was not seen by a witness after that time presumably? Yet isn't there a BG sighting near Freedom Bridge after that time IIRC?

I do remember someone (a girl?) saying they saw him or a suspicious person near the Freedom Bridget that day. I don't remember if she saw before the murders or after, though. I wish I could remember where I read that part.

 

[Cutiekitty]

The video would have a timestamp so they would have that detail though. Unless they then had a witness come forward later, after the billboards went up, who saw (or said they saw) BG leaving the cemetery or near Freedom Bridge or the CPS building. MOO.

The video definitely has a timestamp and a witness definitely could’ve come forward later. Could they have come earlier? Idk. The times are just funky. Ive got to think about it some more.