Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #121

Discussion in 'Located Persons Discussion' started by Tricia, Apr 22, 2019.

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  1. Tricia

    Tricia Owner Websleuths.com Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    Welcome back to the Delphi Murders discussion thread.

    On the afternoon of Feb. 13th, 2017, best friends Abigail Williams and Liberty German were dropped off at a bridge in the town of Delphi. On Feb 14th their bodies were discovered around noon about 50 feet from the north bank of Deer Creek which is about 0.5 miles from the bridge.
    The Sheriff's office gave a press conference on 4/22/19 and we have some solid information. Please take a look below


    HERE IS THE NEW SKETCH FROM THE PRESS CONFERENCE ON 4/22/19
    [​IMG]


    HERE IS THE NEW AUDIO. IT'S-A BIT LONGER THAN THE FIRST AUDIO:
    https://www.in.gov/isp/files/Delphi_Audio_Edited_2019x3.wav

    Here is the old audio in a loop:

    http://www.in.gov/isp/files/Delphi_male_voice_loop.mp3

    LATEST PRESS CONFERENCE 4/22/19

    FOR MORE CLICK HERE FOR THE CARROL COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE FACEBOOK PAGE.


    Anyone with information about this case, no matter how insignificant, is encouraged to call the Delphi Homicide Investigation Tip Line at (844) 459-5786.

    Information can also be reported by calling the Indiana State Police at(800) 382-7537, or the Carroll County Sheriff's Department at (765) 564-2413.

    Information can also be emailed to Abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com

    video of press conference from 2017 02/22/17: https://www.facebook.com/NewsCenter1...4728963476130/

    Let's do this. Let's commit to getting this killer's picture and voice out there any possible way we can.


    Pictures of Abby and Libby

    link to post with all threads 1-99 (courtesy of margarita25)

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    Thread #109 - Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #109
    Thread #110 - Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #110
    Thread #111 - Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #111
    Thread #112 - Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #112
    Thread #113 - Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #113
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    *Media Maps & Timelines*
    IMAGE Discussion Thread
    Scanner Thread
    Rules Etiquette & Information
    Case map by skibaboo updated with grayhuze crime flow video
    grayhuze youtube channel

    Verified Insiders: None in this case at this time. Verified Professional, Member michael.gartley, is a Verified Expert in Imaging Science.

    RULES OF THIS DISCUSSION

    DO NOT post photos of random individuals (including persons featured in MSM articles about other area crimes) to compare to the images of unidentified suspect on the bridge.


    PLEASE DO NOT POST PICTURES OF SEX OFFENDERS!

    Do not sleuth family, PERIOD. This includes previous public records which have nothing to do with this case. They are victims here. Plain and simple.

    4) If you feel you have a tip, by all means, phone it in. Do NOT discuss your tip here. Contact the authorities and give them time to follow your lead.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 2, 2020
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  2. JnRyan

    JnRyan Well-Known Member

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    Maybe. In that case, what if LE found 10 sets of DNA and identified the contributor in half of them, in that example they would not know which of the remaining is his. And, of course, there is the question, 'Does a touch or contact ALWAYS leave DNA?' (I can just hear a DNA lab expert now..."It depends." And then they bring up more questions than I have here.) Which would leave the possibility LE still doesn't have his DNA. Then what is the possibility that the lab missed the DNA when going over the jacket. On that last one, I wonder why LE sent evidence to the lab in December 2018. I don't remember for sure if this was untested evidence or evidence sent back, but I thought I read 'retested' in the article.

    The arguments might be moot, though. LE may have more audio than video because Liberty may have put the phone in her pocket. I do remember ISP 1st Sgt Holeman when asked if he thought the killer knew was recorded and he said, in his opinion, he did not believe the killer knew or suspected. Maybe that is because Liberty didn't leave the phone out long.
     
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  3. JnRyan

    JnRyan Well-Known Member

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    I've leaned toward no 'direct' connection. 'Direct' meaning the Delphi killer was not involved as the Iowa killer or an accomplice. No other reason other than I believe the geographic distance between the two crimes make it unlikely. I've often wondered about what I would call an 'indirect'. That is the Delphi killer was fascinated by the Iowa killings and planned his own of that type. That is, a copycat.

    In an early interview, ISP 1st Sgt Holeman, the lead investigator for ISP, stated something to the effect that they found 'no connection' between the two. I believe that is a carefully worded response meaning they haven't determined a connection BUT they haven't ruled it out either. More often than not I hear "We have not FOUND a connection." and not "There is NO connection." There is a difference. Abigail and Liberty were found very quickly. In Iowa, it was many months later. You bring up signatures, something we did not discuss earlier when looking at the two crimes because we didn't know about them. If, as NIN posed earlier, the signatures are in the manner of killing, the autopsy in the Iowa killings may not be able to see signatures due to decomp.

    I also still wonder about the Iowa killings. And what role, if any, they have here.
     
  4. JnRyan

    JnRyan Well-Known Member

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    I assume you did this with hands out for balance. Not in your pockets like this killer appeared to be doing. I'm curious. Based on your crossing how long would it have taken for you to cross the bridge had you not stopped to take photos but were determined to cross it quickly? Did your crossing the bridge convince that this killer has likely crossed it before - in the past, if not earlier that same day?
     
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  5. StarryStarryNight

    StarryStarryNight Well-Known Member

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    I tend to think there is no connection between Iowa and Delphi. The weird similarities about dates etc in the beginning were interesting but really just wild speculation. The victims, because of their age differences, are, in my opinion, very different and requiring a very different skill set to pull off. In Delphi a bridge was the site of the girls being accosted. In Iowa a very remote wilderness area named after a bridge is where the bodies were found. I don’t see how that is alike at all. Double victims are very rare but that in itself doesn’t connect them. As you pointed out, any signatures at the crime scene in Iowa are obscured and unfortunately that’s not going to change. I wish LE could find a connection, but I sure cannot see one.
     
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  6. JnRyan

    JnRyan Well-Known Member

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    As I said I believe it is likely there is no direct connection. You seemed to have ruled out an indirect connection as well. What good would such a connection be? Probably very little and LE probably wouldn't learn about such until they caught their killer. But what if the Delphi killer had an unusual, and vocal, fascination with the Iowa killings? This, along with any of the signs a killer of Abigail and Liberty might exhibit (e.g., change of appearance, sudden abuse of drugs/alcohol), might further lead to the killer.

    As far as a direct connection there is too much distance and too many differences. Also, as you pointed out double murders like this are rare. I believe it was a retired FBI agent stated there were only a total of 15 cases in the US in the last 35-50 years. (I remember '15 cases', but I don't remember the time frame.) That said, what if it is the same killer and they have evolved? Lyric and Elizabeth were ages 10 and 8. That is a big difference between controlling children 8 or 10 and children 14 years old. In both cases the killer was bold. (I like the word 'bold' as opposed to 'confident'. 'Confident' just seems to have a more positive connotation for me and I see nothing positive about these killings.) In both cases this was a very bold killer who either planned well in advance or on the fly and could adapt his plan as the situation evolved. Did he evolve?

    I think LE in the Evansdale murders know less than the Delphi investigators due to the length of time the bodies and crime scene was exposed to the elements before being examined. The fact that the lead investigator in the Delphi murders tends to avoid stating they believe there is no connection would lead me to believe there is enough doubt in their minds. And they know more about both cases than the public.

    I believe that if this guy has killed before - or since - it was likely a single victim. And that victim may only be classified by LE as missing. That is, no body has been found and therefore no signatures.

    And the signatures leads to another discussion. If the Delphi killer purposely left signatures, what satisfaction would he achieve if the bodies were not found? The killer in Evansdale appears to gone to great lengths to ensure the bodies would be hard to find, if not impossible. Such an effort might cause such signatures to be eliminated by weather and animals. A wasted effort in the mind of the killer if he left a signature or signatures. That seems to make the argument that the two crimes are not directly related. Unless, again, a killer evolved.

    Right off the only sets of double murders that come to my mind are the ones that were committed not far from me. The Colonial Parkway Murders. And LE is not in complete agreement that all 4 sets are related. The one big argument for a direct relationship that they have is the question, "What are the chances of this many double murders in the same general area within this time frame?" Leaving out the 'general area', that question seems to be one that comes up with Evansdale and Delphi.
     
  7. bradfordsleuth

    bradfordsleuth Well-Known Member

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    We don't really know how much information about the Iowa crime scene has been held back as the media attention and as well as the info released surrounding the Iowa case and crime scene seems to be much less than that of the Delphi case.

    I make this assessment simply based on the info available on the Media Thread, as I did not follow the Evansdale case as it happened, nor did I read every single thread afterwards so there may be info that I missed that didn't make it to the Media Thread. JMO

    Based on my understanding of what a signature is, it doesn't only have to be in the manner of killing. It could also be something like a note or something he deliberately left at the scene, evidence of a personal missing item from the victims (a shoe, a sock, or an earring) or even something that may have occurred after the crime. ie: The perp reaching out to LE (anonymously) to disclose something about the crime that only he would know.

    I believe that something that occurred in the Colorado case had LE looking hard at a comparison between both cases. One similarity between the two cases that may be a 'signature' of sorts was at least one shoe of two of the victims (TW and LG) were not found on the victims....but helped start the trail (bike, wallet and clothing in Colarado and footprints in Delphi) that led to each victim.

    I wonder if the shoes of LC and EC were found on them? I couldn't find that info when I was looking. The discovered bikes and EC's purse were certainly a key indicator of foul play...but those items didn't leave a trail for LE to follow that we know of.

    I also believe that the 6000 billboards in 46 states is indicative that LE and the FBI thought a serial killer was a big possibility and here is why:

    The pics of the girls on the billboards were quite large....even more so than the pic of the killer. From this link....FBI launches digital billboard campaign in search for killer of Delphi teens
    upload_2020-2-28_13-46-11.png

    Perhaps LE was trying to get the girl's faces out there across the USA equally as much as the killers in order to see if anyone seeing their faces was shocked into mentioning that the girls bore a startling resemblance to other children that had been murdered in a different state?

    Maybe he left something at the crime scene that let them know that he had done something like this before?

    JMO and a few Friday afternoon thoughts
     
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  8. TL4S

    TL4S Well-Known Member

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    Lots of good thoughts in your post. The billboards really are an interesting aspect in this case, and that along with Ives' description of tons of FBI agents does lend one to imagine a SK scenario.

    I do see similarities in the immediate layout of the Monon High Bridge trail and Meyer's Lake trail areas. There are also a handful of large chain, agriculturally-based companies in both locations, which could offer a work-related connection (although I think that's a stretch). There was around 5 years between the murders, and the differences in age was a jump of nearly 5 years, so I'm open to considering IF it's the same killer, he evolved, especially if he's on the younger side. 5 years older, more "experienced," willing to tackle older girls, but maybe not transport them anywhere... IDK. I think to a killer like this, the sheer opportunity is his trigger and he leaps on it.

    That being said, I think it's just as likely there's not a connection at all.

    As for the "signatures," I'm feeling like maybe these weren't necessarily things he did intentionally. I'm wondering more about clues to his behavior, like covering their faces, or something. Maybe DC sees that as the sign of a "little bit of conscience left." I've always been of the mindset that this was not a planned crime, so I don't see "signatures" as anything purposeful, but instead something he can't help himself from doing...if that makes sense. I could just as easily be completely wrong! :)

    In regards to the large pictures of the girls compared to the killer? I think the whole tactic has always been to minimize BG's importance. For the same reason I think LE is being somewhat quiet after the April PC. They don't want to feed him any more than they have to.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
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  9. Justice101

    Justice101 Well-Known Member

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    https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...85a804-761e-11e8-805c-4b67019fcfe4_story.html
     
  10. Justice101

    Justice101 Well-Known Member

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    But that is for a specific individual you are looking at. On the other hand, blanket looking at EVERYONE who may have used a cell phone tower on Feb 13, 2017 would not be covered in the specific Supreme Court decision.
     
  11. Falling Down

    Falling Down Well-Known Member

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    There are a few similarities, but one glaring difference to me is BG was on foot, and went through a lot of trouble to get the girls to the CS. Again, on foot.

    It bears mentioning, again. The new IN 25 was only 2.5 years old when the murders happened, and that's where I agree with your good post and the circumstances of both cases. A highway offering easy entrance and egress to and from the areas in question.

    JMO
     
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  12. Falling Down

    Falling Down Well-Known Member

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    Thanks again for your efforts and sharing them, here.
     
  13. Falling Down

    Falling Down Well-Known Member

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    ^^^^I agree with this post.

    Even if people saw the disturbed soil and ground leaves at the SE end, they would have not known if it was due to the girls.

    Your distance is roughly what myself and others believe it to be, from the SE end to where the shoe was found. Even with the creek being a barrier and slowing people down a little, from the SE end to the CS was probably covered in under 5 or 6 minutes. BG would have been in a hurry to get the girls away from the bridge, anyway.

    JMO
     
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  14. TL4S

    TL4S Well-Known Member

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    True enough! I'm not as well versed in the Iowa case. Where were the bikes found in proximity to the road? And, is it known where exactly the girls were killed?
     
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  15. Ravenmoon

    Ravenmoon "Justice is a dish best served cold"

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    A note on some POTENTIAL signatures:

    Please know.. the following is only IMO, MOO, JMO:

    If posing has been used , it is usually done in order to:

    Shock the people that find the bodies OR
    for gratification of the killer ( probably sexually).

    At times,
    killers have left ACTUAL notes for LE.
    These are meant to taunt or to show superiority.

    There are times that a body part is removed from a victim, and taken ..or left.

    Sometimes, a type of symbol is left.
    Think along the lines of serial killer Richard Ramirez.

    There are instances when victims will be forced to eat , drink or smoke something.. and the remnants will be left in suite an obvious manner.
    Possibly posed or staged.

    There have been instances when the killer uses a victims clothing as a weapon.

    I am sure there are many signatures that I cannot even begin to know of..these are a few that come to mind.

    All MOO

    EBM for clarity ( hopefully)




     
  16. TandraJones

    TandraJones Member

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    This case just continues to baffle my mind. How in the world is this guy not caught yet?
     
  17. Ravenmoon

    Ravenmoon "Justice is a dish best served cold"

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    To my knowledge and recollection , it has been said that the girls lay where their lives were ended.
    This was not a secondary crime scene.

    MOO
     
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  18. TL4S

    TL4S Well-Known Member

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    I still wonder about the exact location the encounter actually occurred. If the girls were wary enough of BG to film him, were they likely to stay at the end of the bridge as he got closer, or might they have gone below to try to avoid him until he crossed back over before them? If I was uncomfortable with an individual, I wouldn't want to come face to face with him in an isolated location, and then cross a high bridge with that person behind me. That's not judging the girls' decisions, either, as they were put into an impossible situation. But I do wonder if "down the hill" is a different hill than the one just off the end of the bridge.
     
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  19. Serdavc

    Serdavc Active Member

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    Agreed and I wanted to add that there was extensive highway construction in the area of both Meyers Lake in IA (The I380 construction in Evansdale was going on before and during the the same time as Lyric and Lizzie’s case) and there was extensive highway construction before Abby and Libby’s case on IN25 in Delphi. Both highway constructions completely changed the areas of both cases. I can’t rule out that BG was a highway construction worker in both areas going to where the jobs were to be found or that he could possibly be an environmental impact engineer who had to scout these areas extensively for his job.
    ETA -I’m not sure if there was construction on IN 25 in Delphi during or after Feb 17 so I edited my post.
    MOO
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
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  20. NameUser

    NameUser That Old So and So

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    Yes it is!

    I think it is at least an option that someone was passing through the area on the trail. This would give them some bit of confidence(IMO) that there was no one behind them to see him escort them down the hill. It is a long bridge to cross and with a far sight line. The killer would most likely want to know if someone was behind them.
     
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