Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #123

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StarryStarryNight said:
I’m probably wrong here but I don’t recall LE ever saying they have the perpetrator’s DNA. They have talked up and down, and sideways, and all around about DNA. They have, in my opinion, gone out of their way to avoid talking about DNA. They certainly said they have DNA from the crime scene but that could be the victim’s, family’s, friend’s, searcher’s, random people. Probably all touch DNA which is pretty useless. Could be from someone they brushed up against at the grocery store. I’m sure they have DNA that is unidentified. Is it the killer’s. I don’t know. I don’t think they know. They’ve gotten swabs from people, but what are they comparing it to? I just can’t think that the DNA is worth anything to the prosecution of this case. I think it is more of a hope than a fact.
I also think that if LE had useable, important, undeniably the killer’s DNA they would have already been processing those rape kits. They could find the money. Surely the FBI has deep pockets. Plus they would be helping other cases too, not just this one.
I, like a said, probably stand alone on this, but I don’t think the DNA is worth much in this case. Just my opinion.
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They have DNA. They refuse to say where it originated from. Lots of tips, no arrest in 2017 double homicide | Carroll County Comet
 
Thinking about the enormous number of tips LE has received. How easy would it be to miss one small clue that could lead to an arrest?

I have often wondered if, indeed, BG has been interviewed by LE. I suspect that he has- especially if he wants to know what they know. Has he intentionally approached LE, Emergency Services, or the Family, acting as a concerned citizen/friend asking questions? Has he provided numerous tips? Did he donate a large sum of money to the reward fund or ball park project? Is he very vocal about who he believes is guilty in attempt to draw attention away from himself? Why was his DNA and smudged fingerprint found at the crime scene?

For whatever reason, he was able to explain away anything that may have tied him to being at the bridge the same day the girls were (SO FAR). If he is truly local, he has to be someone who would never be suspected. And any actions on his part seemed "normal" at the time.

Who are you BG? Where are you hiding in plain sight? Who's covering for you?- one day they will have the courage to come forward. And your days as a free man will be over. Why not just turn yourself in, and accept responsibility for your actions? Are you a coward? You will be exposed. What will your family think then?
 
Yemelyan said:
I think you and I are talking at cross purposes. I'm not saying investigators never look to see if cases are linked or that any two particular cases are or are not linked. I'm saying the method of how investigators do that is very different than how you or I might think about it, because of the information LE has that we do not. Specifcally, information about the crime scene itself. The verified LE poster in the Holly Piiranen thread gave examples of exactly what LE look for. That's what I'd hoped you got out of my comment, not any type of judgment on whether or not that particular case is linked to any other.

I'll give you another example. In and around the north shore of MA, a number of women have gone missing in the last five or so years. A couple of them likely committed suicide, one apparently ended up in the water while intoxicated, some overdosed. And for at least one, the police won't say what their theory is. If you read about the threads for these women on here, you will find many posters insisting these cases "must be" linked because they are all white women of a certain age. Posters are outraged that police aren't doing more to investigate the disappearances/deaths as the work of one killer. However, to my view the police aren't just bumbling around failing to make connections that are obvious to posters on Websleuths. They know things about these disappearances that have not been made public. They don't say "these are all white women in their fifties, let's go out and make this evidence fit until we find one likely guy."

So to bring this back to Delphi, the question was posted "why don't police try to link this?" My point: they may HAVE, it's just that the criteria they looked at may be really different than what we think (since we know very little after all). If they ever do announce BG is linked to other crimes I would not be surprised at all if they are very different in victim selection, etc. What may be the same were the signatures (if Robert Ives was using that term like a profiler would). And we, the concerned public, don't know what those were.
Click to expand...

I do not know what method investigators use to decide whether a one case is linked to another. I am not LE. I can only offer my opinion. I look at each individual case as having their own set of investigators who have their own perspectives on how they go about looking at the evidence. There will most likely always be information that is not released, things they know that the general public does not. That certainly would factor in to any theory or discussion.

As for "why don't police try to link this?" they may have or they may not have. I think in many cases they just don't know in certain cases. In the case of Abigail Williams and Liberty German I do not think they know of any link to any other cases. That is my opinion. From a psychological perspective it is kind of unique to read some of the comments that suggest that LE knows or has a good idea who committed this crime, but just does not have the evidence needed to arrest. I do not agree with that at all(my opinion).

I look at Websleuths as simply a forum for discussion. People are going to have opinions that might not be based on the evidence because they either have not spent tons of time researching the case before they comment or they do not know what the police know.

I read what the profiler wrote concerning both Holly Piirainen and Molly Bish. If you go to the library and read about any type of behavioral psychology you will see rather quickly that much of it is research you can do yourself. I did not find any of it to be new since I have read various books on criminal psychology and other profiling techniques. If anything it seems like investigators say the same things over and over and not just about the Piirainen and Bish cases.

"He may have changed his sleeping patterns". "He could be abusing drugs or alcohol." "He may have missed a work appointment." "He may have had a major significant life event happen that triggered a response." These are just things I came up with because I have heard them so many times over various cases. Or they start rambling off statistics. Again, this information is found at the library. Profiling to me is just a tool to help in an investigation.

So maybe I just did not see the information the same way as others.
 
JDough said:
Thinking about the enormous number of tips LE has received. How easy would it be to miss one small clue that could lead to an arrest?

(snipped)

Who are you BG? Where are you hiding in plain sight? Who's covering for you?- one day they will have the courage to come forward. And your days as a free man will be over. Why not just turn yourself in, and accept responsibility for your actions? Are you a coward? You will be exposed. What will your family think then?
Click to expand...

His family already knows. (All JMOO.)
 
somequestions said:
I do not know what method investigators use to decide whether a one case is linked to another. I am not LE. I can only offer my opinion. I look at each individual case as having their own set of investigators who have their own perspectives on how they go about looking at the evidence. There will most likely always be information that is not released, things they know that the general public does not. That certainly would factor in to any theory or discussion.

As for "why don't police try to link this?" they may have or they may not have. I think in many cases they just don't know in certain cases. In the case of Abigail Williams and Liberty German I do not think they know of any link to any other cases. That is my opinion. From a psychological perspective it is kind of unique to read some of the comments that suggest that LE knows or has a good idea who committed this crime, but just does not have the evidence needed to arrest. I do not agree with that at all(my opinion).

I look at Websleuths as simply a forum for discussion. People are going to have opinions that might not be based on the evidence because they either have not spent tons of time researching the case before they comment or they do not know what the police know.

I read what the profiler wrote concerning both Holly Piirainen and Molly Bish. If you go to the library and read about any type of behavioral psychology you will see rather quickly that much of it is research you can do yourself. I did not find any of it to be new since I have read various books on criminal psychology and other profiling techniques. If anything it seems like investigators say the same things over and over and not just about the Piirainen and Bish cases.

"He may have changed his sleeping patterns". "He could be abusing drugs or alcohol." "He may have missed a work appointment." "He may have had a major significant life event happen that triggered a response." These are just things I came up with because I have heard them so many times over various cases. Or they start rambling off statistics. Again, this information is found at the library. Profiling to me is just a tool to help in an investigation.

So maybe I just did not see the information the same way as others.
Click to expand...

I wanted to clarify that I have only read a few books on criminal/behavioral psychology. Most of my research at the library focused on locational profiling and how it relates to human behavior. The comments in quotations from my previous post are not the profiler's but various comments that I consistently hear when investigators talk about various cases. The profiler is the expert at his profession. He has some good advice, but I am not as interested in behavioral psychology. His comments can be found in Molly Bish and Holly Piirainen's threads.

My only advice in the case of Abigail Williams and Liberty German would be to be careful about placing too much emphasis on the location where the crime occurred since the Monon High Bridge Trail was a public place. Ironically within this type of profiling there have been more than a few instances where it was thought place location was related to a crime only to find out later that the suspect traveled or committed the crime while out on the road.
 
JDough said:
Thinking about the enormous number of tips LE has received. How easy would it be to miss one small clue that could lead to an arrest?

I have often wondered if, indeed, BG has been interviewed by LE. I suspect that he has- especially if he wants to know what they know. Has he intentionally approached LE, Emergency Services, or the Family, acting as a concerned citizen/friend asking questions? Has he provided numerous tips? Did he donate a large sum of money to the reward fund or ball park project? Is he very vocal about who he believes is guilty in attempt to draw attention away from himself? Why was his DNA and smudged fingerprint found at the crime scene?

For whatever reason, he was able to explain away anything that may have tied him to being at the bridge the same day the girls were (SO FAR). If he is truly local, he has to be someone who would never be suspected. And any actions on his part seemed "normal" at the time.

Who are you BG? Where are you hiding in plain sight? Who's covering for you?- one day they will have the courage to come forward. And your days as a free man will be over. Why not just turn yourself in, and accept responsibility for your actions? Are you a coward? You will be exposed. What will your family think then?
Click to expand...

In all the cases where I have submitted tips to law enforcement, I have never received anything more than a thank you for submitting the tip. There has never been any follow-up, even years later. Sometimes I might get an email response from an actual detective on the case thanking me for my information, but that is as far as it ever goes. They must make a conclusion about whether the tip is useful or not.

In this case, when you submit a tip to the Abby and Libby tip email, you usually get a generic email robot response thanking you for submitting your tip. I guess that is because of the volume of tips received in this case. I submitted the same tip to Iowa investigators in the Elizabeth Collins and Lyric Cook case(in case there was possibly a link to Abby and Libby), and to the FBI. I did not receive a response from either of those organizations.

So sometimes I wonder how law enforcement goes through the tips they receive in cases.
 
somequestions said:
In all the cases where I have submitted tips to law enforcement, I have never received anything more than a thank you for submitting the tip. There has never been any follow-up, even years later. Sometimes I might get an email response from an actual detective on the case thanking me for my information, but that is as far as it ever goes. They must make a conclusion about whether the tip is useful or not.

In this case, when you submit a tip to the Abby and Libby tip email, you usually get a generic email robot response thanking you for submitting your tip. I guess that is because of the volume of tips received in this case. I submitted the same tip to Iowa investigators in the Elizabeth Collins and Lyric Cook case(in case there was possibly a link to Abby and Libby), and to the FBI. I did not receive a response from either of those organizations.

So sometimes I wonder how law enforcement goes through the tips they receive in cases.
Click to expand...

This article from February 2019 talks about how investigators process each tip received:
Delphi investigators are comparing tips with cases across the country to find Libby & Abby's killer

Every tip received about Libby and Abby’s murders gets entered into the FBI system called “Pyramid.” That system stores information like names, descriptions and motives so it can be cross-referenced with other tips.

“If they’re calling in something that we already know about, it’s pretty easy for us to compare notes,” Holeman said. “And we don’t delete those – we keep them on file.”
 
SBM

somequestions said:
So maybe I just did not see the information the same way as others.
Click to expand...

I guess not....As you said, this is simply a board for discussion so it's neither here nor there, really.

@somequestions I'm curious about the multiple tips you've submitted in various cases. Actually, I'm just curious about the one or more you've submitted to the investigators of the Delphi murders. Without going into details on exactly what you called in, were you submitting names of individuals you suspected based on what you personally knew about their movements on the day of the murders and/or their resemblance to the sketch (obviously, don't post their names or identifiers here)? Or were you submitting general thoughts/speculations that may have occurred to you like "check into railroad buffs or other people who visited this website about the Monon High Bridge"?
 
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somequestions said:
I do not know what method investigators use to decide whether a one case is linked to another. I am not LE. I can only offer my opinion. I look at each individual case as having their own set of investigators who have their own perspectives on how they go about looking at the evidence. There will most likely always be information that is not released, things they know that the general public does not. That certainly would factor in to any theory or discussion.

As for "why don't police try to link this?" they may have or they may not have. I think in many cases they just don't know in certain cases. In the case of Abigail Williams and Liberty German I do not think they know of any link to any other cases. That is my opinion. From a psychological perspective it is kind of unique to read some of the comments that suggest that LE knows or has a good idea who committed this crime, but just does not have the evidence needed to arrest. I do not agree with that at all(my opinion).

I look at Websleuths as simply a forum for discussion. People are going to have opinions that might not be based on the evidence because they either have not spent tons of time researching the case before they comment or they do not know what the police know.

I read what the profiler wrote concerning both Holly Piirainen and Molly Bish. If you go to the library and read about any type of behavioral psychology you will see rather quickly that much of it is research you can do yourself. I did not find any of it to be new since I have read various books on criminal psychology and other profiling techniques. If anything it seems like investigators say the same things over and over and not just about the Piirainen and Bish cases.

"He may have changed his sleeping patterns". "He could be abusing drugs or alcohol." "He may have missed a work appointment." "He may have had a major significant life event happen that triggered a response." These are just things I came up with because I have heard them so many times over various cases. Or they start rambling off statistics. Again, this information is found at the library. Profiling to me is just a tool to help in an investigation.

So maybe I just did not see the information the same way as others.
Click to expand...

I agree with your thoughts. Most of the comments relating to the profile of this killer are not unique or personalized to this specific case. They’re common characteristics of a criminal profile and behaviours which police are trained to be aware of, probably written in the book of Policing 101.

One flashing thought I have whenever I read comments about LE knowing who it is, they just don’t have enough evidence, they’re building a case, etc is it reminds me of the well-known mistake police sometimes make leading to wrongful convictions - tunnel vision, focusing solely on a single suspect in the absence of strong evidence.

If police don’t have adequate evidence they simply do not know if any one suspect is the guilty party. It’s the evidence that points towards the possible guilt of a suspect, not the other way around. If they had the evidence, they wouldn’t still be asking for tips about the identity of the killer. JMO
 
somequestions said:
From a psychological perspective it is kind of unique to read some of the comments that suggest that LE knows or has a good idea who committed this crime, but just does not have the evidence needed to arrest. I do not agree with that at all(my opinion)
Click to expand...

Agreed. My dad was a psychology and sociology professor. He would have a field day with that belief. There is nothing to justify it except people have an overwhelming need to clutch something that they view as immensely positive but not obvious. Like a prize behind the door. It's the reason scams work even though people know darn well they shouldn't fall for them.

Meanwhile all you have to do is watch true crime programs or read related books. Once law enforcement has someone in mind they fixate on him and do everything to wear him down. They find subordinate and often trivial charges to levy against him, simply to get him inside the system. They threaten others among family/friends with hefty charges if info is being withheld to impede an investigation.

The one thing they don't do is say...oh well they aren't cooperating so I guess we'll go on John Walsh instead.

I don't think Bridge Guy has ever been on a suspect list. I don't think he has been interviewed. I don't think anyone related to him has been interviewed. I don't think he has injected himself. I don't think he was in a search party or at a funeral or in that room. I don't think anyone in his family suspects him. I wouldn't be confident that either sketch looks anything like him.

Give me the Field. There's a whole lot of blenders out there. Immense value in any other possibility.

The one thing I am confident in is that Bridge Guy skews younger not older. I don't see old in any variable, from his frame to his walk or his voice, etc. History of this type of offender is almost never old. I am flabbergasted every time someone suggests 50+. I've always been a believer in low to mid 30s, but 20s or even high teens would not shock me. Older fellow would stun the heck out of me, to the point I'd probably be in too much of a daze to follow the proceedings.
 
Wells said:
They have DNA. They refuse to say where it originated from. Lots of tips, no arrest in 2017 double homicide | Carroll County Comet
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Since we were told that GH is an approved source that we can use, he did a show (I believe it was last year) that had a local in the Delphi area call in. GH knew and trusted this person. This man stated he knew that LE only had touch DNA from the shoulder area of one of the girl's sweatshirts. Does this particular GH show ring a bell for anyone else? I'm trying to see if I have the link.
 
Yemelyan said:
SBM



I guess not....As you said, this is simply a board for discussion so it's neither here nor there, really.

@somequestions I'm curious about the multiple tips you've submitted in various cases. Actually, I'm just curious about the one or more you've submitted to the investigators of the Delphi murders. Without going into details on exactly what you called in, were you submitting names of individuals you suspected based on what you personally knew about their movements on the day of the murders and/or their resemblance to the sketch (obviously, don't post their names or identifiers here)? Or were you submitting general thoughts/speculations that may have occurred to you like "check into railroad buffs or other people who visited this website about the Monon High Bridge"?
Click to expand...

Without trying to violate any rules, here is a broad description of the tip in this case.

I was working a high school level job so I do not want to get into the job or my income, but the job was at a cold storage facility in another state that is not Indiana. A man who appeared to be around 50-60 years old walked in to sign for his truck load sometime towards the end of 2016/early 2017. The trucks are refrigerated. The man had on the same stuff as Liberty German's video of him. So it was a description tip first submitted at the end of March 2017. I am not going to describe any further. The two sketches are not remotely close to my description.

So maybe it is like you wrote. Maybe police have other information that I am not aware of that has lead them to conclude the tip is not worth consideration? Unfortunately I can tell you I did not get a name, license plate, or truck description so that could also be part of the reason too. I do not know who this person is. Our encounter was brief. He signed his paperwork and left.

My tip was basically a mental snapshot that I took that day of a man I remembered. It has nothing to do with the Monon High Bridge, knowing anybody from the Delphi area, or even the state of Indiana.
 
MistyWaters said:
I agree with your thoughts. Most of the comments relating to the profile of this killer are not unique or personalized to this specific case. They’re common characteristics of a criminal profile and behaviours which police are trained to be aware of, probably written in the book of Policing 101.

One flashing thought I have whenever I read comments about LE knowing who it is, they just don’t have enough evidence, they’re building a case, etc is it reminds me of the well-known mistake police sometimes make leading to wrongful convictions - tunnel vision, focusing solely on a single suspect in the absence of strong evidence.

If police don’t have adequate evidence they simply do not know if any one suspect is the guilty party. It’s the evidence that points towards the possible guilt of a suspect, not the other way around. If they had the evidence, they wouldn’t still be asking for tips about the identity of the killer. JMO
Click to expand...

Totally agree. Three years out, any thought that LE is just “dotting the I’s and crossing the T’s” is a pretty big stretch.
 
JDough said:
- one day they will have the courage to come forward. And your days as a free man will be over. Why not just turn yourself in, and accept responsibility for your actions? Are you a coward? You will be exposed. What will your family think then?
Click to expand...
It might be that the person(s) who should know who BG is simply do not have the intellect to make the connection....and BG knows it, because he has (probably always) made a point to surround himself with "slower" individuals.
 
JDough said:
I have often wondered if, indeed, BG has been interviewed by LE. I suspect that he has- especially if he wants to know what they know. Has he intentionally approached LE, Emergency Services, or the Family, acting as a concerned citizen/friend asking questions? Has he provided numerous tips? Did he donate a large sum of money to the reward fund or ball park project? Is he very vocal about who he believes is guilty in attempt to draw attention away from himself? Why was his DNA and smudged fingerprint found at the crime scene?

For whatever reason, he was able to explain away anything that may have tied him to being at the bridge the same day the girls were (SO FAR). If he is truly local, he has to be someone who would never be suspected. And any actions on his part seemed "normal" at the time.
Click to expand...

bbm
I "like" this ^^^^ whole part of your post! :rolleyes::)
 
JDough said:
Who are you BG? Where are you hiding in plain sight? Who's covering for you?- one day they will have the courage to come forward. And your days as a free man will be over. Why not just turn yourself in, and accept responsibility for your actions? Are you a coward? You will be exposed. What will your family think then?
Click to expand...
This ^^^^ part of your post I don't like so much, because I think, BG is not receptive to an appeal to his conscience, never ever. MOO
Does BG even know, that he is Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde in one person?
 
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