Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #126

[Yemelyan]

Some stones in the world are weighty and cannot be over turned.

The faux philosophy aside, it may not be possible to recreate some social media exchanges- even for national level police forces. In particular, whether or not Snap Chat exchanges can be recreated by anyone, including the FBI has been discussed on the forum.

Though I dont think a definite answer was arrived at on the forum, the case of the Riverside, CA ISIS terrorists shows how commonly available technology can hamper even the FBI.

Breaking the entry code on their Apple phones would have been easy. Breaking the code, however, would have resulted in a data erasure so complete that not even the FBI could recover it. In the midst of a long court battle to open the phone, the FBI was assisted by a third party and withdrew their lawsuit.
Apple v the FBI: what's the beef, how did we get here and what's at stake?
Why Apple is battling investigators over San Bernardino terrorists' iPhone

In short.,...

It might not be a matter of out smarting the FBI. Rather, it could be a matter of the victims using certain, easily available technology by chance (ie can certain social media exchanges ever be recreated?).

The only thing I would say, is that whether or not the FBI can get access to certain technology is something that not even the FBI wants people to know. So there's not going to be a clear cut answer, in all probability.

 

[Cryptic]

The only thing I would say, is that whether or not the FBI can get access to certain technology is something that not even the FBI wants people to know. So there's not going to be a clear cut answer, in all probability.

Well said.

 

[Ravenmoon]

If this was a preplanned rendezvous to meet someone unkown, I doubt that Libby would have asked for Kelsi to accompany them.
She did ask, and Kelsi declined in favor of spending time with her boyfriend. Kelsi has spoken about this with some regret.
JMO

 

[BNA]

LOL

I am convinced now that the solution to this case lies somewhere amidst the things and issues that we are not allowed to talk about.....or even get close to talking about.

That is fair enuff for me, tho. I don't own this place

I am running out of clicks/patience, tho.

I politely mentioned the word "spiffed" and the post got deleted. Yet others who used the word still have their posts up. In fact, my post was in response to one of those posts. Go figger. l guess I must have struck a nerve on somebody who ought to know far more secrets than I about this case.

 

[BNA]

If this was a preplanned rendezvous to meet someone unkown, I doubt that Libby would have asked for Kelsi to accompany them.
She did ask, and Kelsi declined in favor of spending time with her boyfriend. Kelsi has spoken about this with some regret.
JMO

Good thing to give more thought to. Also, chronology of sweaters/sweatshirts.

 

[MistyWaters]

If this was a preplanned rendezvous to meet someone unkown, I doubt that Libby would have asked for Kelsi to accompany them.
She did ask, and Kelsi declined in favor of spending time with her boyfriend. Kelsi has spoken about this with some regret.
JMO

I don’t doubt Kelsi although I don’t recall her saying this. But it never ceases to amaze me how this case is riddled with contradictory information.

BBM

“Libby’s sister, Kelsi German, didn’t worry when she dropped the girls off that day. The bridge was a familiar spot. She left the girls walking down the trail and drove to pick up her boyfriend. They both worked at the Dairy Queen in Delphi. Not long after, Kelsi’s phone rang, and her life changed...”
Halfway Across: The Delphi Murders

 

[SMK777]

LOL

I am convinced now that the solution to this case lies somewhere amidst the things and issues that we are not allowed to talk about.....or even get close to talking about.

That is fair enuff for me, tho. I don't own this place

I am running out of clicks/patience, tho.

I politely mentioned the word "spiffed" and the post got deleted. Yet others who used the word still have their posts up. In fact, my post was in response to one of those posts. Go figger. l guess I must have struck a nerve on somebody who ought to know far more secrets than I about this case.

I did mention Abby’s mom saying the girls were not “spiffed up” to meet a boy. Why would your using that word be objectionable?

 

[Yemelyan]

I don’t doubt Kelsi although I don’t recall her saying this. But it never ceases to amaze me how this case is riddled with contradictory information.

BBM

“Libby’s sister, Kelsi German, didn’t worry when she dropped the girls off that day. The bridge was a familiar spot. She left the girls walking down the trail and drove to pick up her boyfriend. They both worked at the Dairy Queen in Delphi. Not long after, Kelsi’s phone rang, and her life changed...”
Halfway Across: The Delphi Murders

Kelsi has said that her plan was to hang out at her boyfriend's house for a few hours before she went to her shift at Dairy Queen. This is my recollection from Scene of the Crime. So she had to decide between accompanying Abby and Libby on their walk or hanging with her boyfriend; she chose the boyfriend and that's the source of her regret.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Good thing to give more thought to. Also, chronology of sweaters/sweatshirts.

Could you explain what you mean about the sweatshirts?
I am confused

 

[somequestions]

This is all speculation, and my own thoughts. Abby and Libby are victims of a barbaric crime. If Abby had arranged to meet someone she had been in contact with, perhaps over a period of time, how would they contact each other? Maybe there is evidence the police have and it's part of the reasoning of the police that it's someone local. Someone was messaging her directly. It could have been a burner phone, that was used very carefully and exclusively in the Delphi area, or notes could have been left somewhere for example. That could be seen as 'really romantic' and exciting by young girls.

I think Abby lived quite near the bridge. She may have been told by this 'boy' that he really wanted to see her, it was Valentines Day etc. Would she (Abby) meet him at the bridge? Alone.

Abby told Libby and they agreed, Abby was not to go alone. She'd go too. That's what girls do. We go to the loo together, we meet boys for the first time together. The imagined scenario gone bad needn't have been something as terrible as what did happen, just that the boy might be ugly, it might be a joke so Libby went for as much as anything, moral support.

What we know of the scene where the bodies were left, is that it was horrible. Lots of physical evidence, not the sort of thing you'd expect and Carter said that 'the girls are not in the same way you left them'. Does the horrible scene relate to the way the bodies were staged, or is it the entire scene?

If the bodies were the horrible bit, was the scene also intended to be a weird 'wooing' place? I'm thinking flowers, a pile of clean leaves to sit/lie on, maybe a teddy bear, pretty stones, feathers, a tidy and private area. A mix of items to reflect what a boy/man thinks a girl likes, whilst also reflecting the boy/man's view of what he thinks men do to romance women. Wine, chocolates? A red rose? Who knows?

Was the killer the person in contact with Abby, if so, what went wrong? Had Abby assured him she'd come alone? I've heard the girls may have seen him earlier, did they look at him in a way that indicated fear or giggle together, or share a pulled face? They didn't know he was whom Abby was meeting, but he knew at that point that his meticulously planned experience had gone. Now he was rejected (probably a familiar feeling to him) and he was angry. Or she stood on the bridge as arranged, but he'd already seen Libby was there too. She'd lied to him.

*Or, do we go with the two people scenario? The man and his similar looking son? If it's two people, it doesn't mean that both intended and/or were involved in the murders.

Could BG have ordered his son to leave and if the witnesses are accurate, wait for him at the abandoned building? He tells the son that he knows enough to get the death penalty. Maybe his mum isn't very well and if they both go to prison it will destroy her. If he tells, he's essentially writing his mum's death warrant. Or that if he tells, he will kill him, his mum, siblings etc. His son leaves, upset and angry, but silent.*

BG practically runs across the bridge, knuckles clenched in his pockets. It's very much a "Get (the f?) Down the Hill". YOU DO WHAT I TELL YOU.

The killer uses the prepared scene and adds some of his own extra touches reflecting his rage. More violent and intimidating touches, possibly part of a rape/abduction kit he carries around with him. Does it become chaotic in his rage? The scene becomes very confusing.

The killing may be the thrill for him, (or, if there were two people involved, the sexual intention was ruined by arguing with his son). His method of killing may be time consuming. He has to choose between a sexual element and living out his fantasies. He can't be too long, people have seen him, the local residents might see him, or perhaps he heard someone's voice and it unnerved him.

But once he's killed, he's calmer. He stages the girls, perhaps reflecting his rage with one of them, gentler (and I use the word with the knowledge that that sounds oxymoronic) with the one he had such plans with.

Did Abby and Libby go to meet up with someone they may have communicated with earlier? I do not think so and here is why. As a possibility, it only makes sense to me if you completely disregard Liberty German's video and audio recording. Then anything is possible.

When Abby got to the end of the Monon High Bridge trail didn't she say something to Libby on Libby's recording, paraphrasing: "Is that creepy guy still behind us?" I cannot remember the exact words.

In addition to not using the person's name, I just do not think Abby would refer to someone she knew that way. It sounds like the way a person would phrase it to their friend if the person behind them was a stranger.

Based on the timing, all the way at the end of the Monon High Bridge trail, and the wording, "creepy guy", I do not think Abby or Libby met anyone out on the Monon High Bridge trail that day except for the stranger who murdered them.

 

[MistyWaters]

This quote below was merely days following the murders. More than 3 years later, LE has never said which direction appears to lead anywhere, nothing, Oddly, at the time Riley appears to believe more than one person was involved.

CASAREZ: Sergeant, one last question before we go. Our producers estimated approximately 30 sex offenders in a 10-mile radius of Delphi.

Are you looking into that area?

RILEY: Yes, we are. We`re looking -- we`re looking at every angle. We`re looking at social media. We`re looking at sex offenders. We`re looking every direction we can to try to come up with that, some information on trying to catch these people that did this.
CNN.com - Transcripts

 

[IceIce9]

Did Abby and Libby go to meet up with someone they may have communicated with earlier?

Based on the timing, all the way at the end of the Monon High Bridge trail, and the wording, "creepy guy", I do not think Abby or Libby met anyone out on the Monon High Bridge trail that day except for the stranger who murdered them.

I think it is possible they went there to meet someone, expecting to meet someone other than BG.

It is possible BG had communicated with them pretending to be a teenage boy. Or they had gone to the bridge looking to meet someone else entirely.

 

[MistyWaters]

Did Abby and Libby go to meet up with someone they may have communicated with earlier? I do not think so and here is why. As a possibility, it only makes sense to me if you completely disregard Liberty German's video and audio recording. Then anything is possible.

When Abby got to the end of the Monon High Bridge trail didn't she say something to Libby on Libby's recording, paraphrasing: "Is that creepy guy still behind us?" I cannot remember the exact words.

In addition to not using the person's name, I just do not think Abby would refer to someone she knew that way. It sounds like the way a person would phrase it to their friend if the person behind them was a stranger.

Based on the timing, all the way at the end of the Monon High Bridge trail, and the wording, "creepy guy", I do not think Abby or Libby met anyone out on the Monon High Bridge trail that day except for the stranger who murdered them.

It’s not necessarily so that they went to meet someone. But I don’t think it’s totally out of the realm of possibilities if they were unknowingly stalked online...especially if the suspect was local, my opinion only.

 

[JenniD]

I am torn between this being a random stranger and the girls were at the wrong place at the wrong time - or that they were meeting up with someone or investigating something. Seems as though there is no trace of social media contact so what were they doing the day before. It was a Sunday, I believe Liberty was active in her church, Abby spent the night, Did they have a Sunday night Youth group where someone might have heard their plans? Just thinking of possibilities where someone might have overheard their conversation if there was one

 

[Ravenmoon]

There have been a couple of interviews (minimum) with BP regarding what she knew about the girls doings the evening before and morning of their murder.
The girls painted and made silly singing videos. They woke up a little late because they stayed up so long, like teens typically do.
They had banana pancakes for breakfast, and did filing for BP . BP has an appraisal business.
It was then that Libby asked for a ride to the bridge, but BP declined. She had to work.
Then Libby asked Kelsi if she would take them and go with.
Kelsi said no. Several times.
Finally , she agreed to take them and told them she would drop them off , but she wanted to spend time with her boyfriend before work, so they would need to arrange a ride home.
This is when BP gave permission.
There is a bit of confusion as to whether or not the girls asked DG for a ride home before they left, or if it was in the process of getting to the trail.
Regardless, it seems that there was about 90 minutes from the time they dropped were dropped off before DG began to call them to let them know he was almost there to pick them up.
90 minutes
I put this out there to help fill in some of the blanks about what they did before.
AMOO JMO

EBM to correct grammar

 

[Ravenmoon]

I am sure it has been discussed before, ad nauseam, but if the girls knew the killer..it seems likely that it would have been revealed at some point on the taped recording.
Of course, this doesn't mean that he did not "know" them in some way. This could have been through the schools, camps, church, social media...the possibilities are endless.
Libby was a social butterfly. She was outgoing and popular.
Abby , by most accounts, was much more quiet and didn't really speak out as much as Libby until she got to know someone.
It seems to me, that Libby really helped Abby become more vocal and daring ( example- crossing the bridge) .
Libby was dynamic and BP has said that Libby was someone that HAD to be busy every moment of the day. She baked, she played sports, she wrote post-its to people to uplift their day.
Abby played the Saxophone, liked sports and was someone that ALWAYS wanted to help people according to Anna.
The girls were not a lot a like, but seemed to be a wonderful balance for one another.
Abby was NOT allowed to even have a Facebook account , according to Anna. Anna was shocked to find out that Abby made one and blocked her so that she wouldn't know.
The reason I bring up the girls and their personalities and their activity on social media is because Libby would have been much more accessible to a person that could be stalking.
I am not convinced this is the case, but there has been mention that Abby was more likely targeted.. If we use Occam's razor.. well, it would be much more theoretically plausible that Libby was being "watched."

AMOO JMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I am torn between this being a random stranger and the girls were at the wrong place at the wrong time - or that they were meeting up with someone or investigating something. Seems as though there is no trace of social media contact so what were they doing the day before. It was a Sunday, I believe Liberty was active in her church, Abby spent the night, Did they have a Sunday night Youth group where someone might have heard their plans? Just thinking of possibilities where someone might have overheard their conversation if there was one

I can’t remember specifics but I believe Abby spent time that weekend with her grandfather. I think they went and bought her some softball equipment. I think on Sunday the girls hung out together. Someone took them to the ballfield and they practiced softball for a while. Then Libby invited Abby to sleepover and BP and Anna said OK. That’s how I remember it being relayed. Feel free to correct whatever might be wrong.

 

[somequestions]

It’s not necessarily so that they went to meet someone. But I don’t think it’s totally out of the realm of possibilities if they were unknowingly stalked online...especially if the suspect was local, my opinion only.

I will try and play detective here for a second to explain.

In order to form an opinion about someone that you are going to meet, you first have to meet them face to face most of the time. We know the words on Libby's recording "Is that creepy guy still behind me?" happened at the end of the Monon High Bridge because shortly after that on the recording Libby responds that they cannot go any further because the trail ends.

In the pictures Libby took before they ever got to the end of the trail there is no other person in them except for Abby.

So either

A. The girls met this man early on the trail and he just sat way behind them out of the view of Liberty German's camera and did not even notice Libby had a camera phone and was taking pictures, which is possible or

B. When Abby made the "creepy guy" statement at the end of the bridge the girls had yet to meet this person and talk to them face to face. Only as he was approaching behind Abby did Libby start filming and recording him(not earlier), and the first face to face talk with him was when the bridge guy approached the girls at the end of the bridge since they could go no further.

So my conclusion is that I think Abby and Libby first met and talked to the "creepy guy" at the end of the Monon High Bridge. And since Abby made the opinion statement before he was physically next to them, he was probably a stranger and not someone they intended to meet.

I also think when most people want to meet someone they are at least polite and will introduce themselves and their friend or ask, "Hey, are you (name)?" because there could be other people out on the Monon High Bridge trail other than the boy or man they were going to meet.

So no, I do not thinking Abby and Libby had intended on meeting anyone that day on the Monon High Bridge trail.

I agree though that an unknown stalker online is a possibility, but he must be very good at knowing when they were going to go to the Monon High Bridge trail.

 

[somequestions]

If Abby and Libby did intend to meet someone they knew from online or somewhere else the timing was very strange.

People have filmed themselves walking across the Monon High Bridge and timing themselves. You have the 2:07 pm photo Libby took of Abby. What time was the earlier photo Libby took looking down the length of the Monon High Bridge?

So what were Libby and Abby doing at 2 pm? The point is that if Kelsi dropped them off after 1:30 pm and most people like to meet on the half hour or hour, then what time did they intend to meet anyone?

 

[AryaStark]

I honestly do not believe Abby or Libby intended to meet anyone on the trail that fateful day.