It seems to me that if HS was the only target they could have just done it when BS wasn't home, and then leave. But it doesn't make sense to me that a professional killer would risk potential exposure by going to the house, staying there for a while, potentially leaving clues, etc. Similarly, if BS was the only target, BS could have been killed elsewhere much easier and with much less risk to the killer . IMO they were both targeted as casesensitive says. I don't believe only one was the target, and the other was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Someone planned to kill them both, in a very close personal and in your face way, in their home- the place where most people feel the most safe.
Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #14
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It seems to me that if HS was the only target they could have just done it when BS wasn't home, and then leave. But it doesn't make sense to me that a professional killer would risk potential exposure by going to the house, staying there for a while, potentially leaving clues, etc. Similarly, if BS was the only target, BS could have been killed elsewhere much easier and with much less risk to the killer . IMO they were both targeted as casesensitive says. I don't believe only one was the target, and the other was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Someone planned to kill them both, in a very close personal and in your face way, in their home- the place where most people feel the most safe.
sorry I should have been more clear. I’m not sure someone planned to kill them, or it just happened in the moment..
MistyWaters
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Did anyone notice the very last line in KDs most recent Star report - that TPS are still going over information the Sherman’s PI team handed over in August?
Contrary to that snippet, it was a year ago when TPS announced the Sherman’s PI team was no longer investigating the homicides. It’s interesting if the PI team’s work wasn’t concluded even if they announced it was.
Dec, 2019
“At a press conference at police headquarters Monday morning, Toronto police homicide Insp. Hank Idsinga told reporters that the case was now solely in the hands of his detectives, led by Det.-Sgt. Brandon Price, with assistance from detectives Dennis Yim and Kristy Devine.”
Private investigation into murders of billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman is over, Toronto police and Sherman family say
Contrary to that snippet, it was a year ago when TPS announced the Sherman’s PI team was no longer investigating the homicides. It’s interesting if the PI team’s work wasn’t concluded even if they announced it was.
Dec, 2019
“At a press conference at police headquarters Monday morning, Toronto police homicide Insp. Hank Idsinga told reporters that the case was now solely in the hands of his detectives, led by Det.-Sgt. Brandon Price, with assistance from detectives Dennis Yim and Kristy Devine.”
Private investigation into murders of billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman is over, Toronto police and Sherman family say
Surely JS and husband are not short of dough, wondering why BS was paying for the baby surrogate, and why (over 300K) was it so expensive? imo.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/pregnancy-surrogacy-rules-1.4623217
''As for carrying a child, a range of about $25,000 to $35,000 US is normal when someone is being paid, says Heather Jacobson, a professor and author of the book Labor of Love: Gestational Surrogacy and the Work of Making Babies, which focuses on surrogacy in the U.S.''
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/pregnancy-surrogacy-rules-1.4623217
''As for carrying a child, a range of about $25,000 to $35,000 US is normal when someone is being paid, says Heather Jacobson, a professor and author of the book Labor of Love: Gestational Surrogacy and the Work of Making Babies, which focuses on surrogacy in the U.S.''
Even at $100k its far way from $300k!
The KD article doesn't specify if the $300k was $Cdn or $us though.
How much does surrogacy cost from state to state?
Every surrogacy case is unique and involves factors that can impact the overall fees and price. The average cost of surrogacy can range from $90,000 to $130,000 depending on the individual arrangements. In states like California, where surrogates are in high demand, the cost may be slightly higher. Legal requirements and the costs of other services can also vary from state to state. However, the cost of surrogacy doesn't vary greatly between major metropolitan cities such as Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago and Houston.
Surrogate Mother Costs & Fees | How Much Does Surrogacy Cost?.
MistyWaters
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Interesting, Canadian laws as it applies to victims, a term which also includes close relatives. This could be why Price backtracked away from a person of interest, upon issuing the clarification statement “in fairness to friends and family....”
BBM
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent...old-of-her-legal-rights-as-a-victim-1.5838166
“Caitlyn Bates says she and her family have struggled to access information about the investigation into her sister's suspected murder, unaware that their rights as victims of a crime are enshrined in Canadian law......
“The Canadian Victims Bill of Rights, passed in 2015, gives victims the right to information about the investigation of the crime they have suffered, including its progress and any prosecutions that arise. The legislation also offers the right to protection during the process, the right to participation by providing victim-impact statements, and the rights to restitution over the crime, and to complain if those rights are not upheld....”
******
The above case also regards an obvious homicide but the sister was initially informed “it could be suicide”.
“Soon after, police informed the family that they had opened a homicide investigation, but did not make it public knowledge until Nov. 30, telling CBC News that secrecy was necessary to avoid "damaging" the active investigation. The investigation is ongoing.”
BBM
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent...old-of-her-legal-rights-as-a-victim-1.5838166
“Caitlyn Bates says she and her family have struggled to access information about the investigation into her sister's suspected murder, unaware that their rights as victims of a crime are enshrined in Canadian law......
“The Canadian Victims Bill of Rights, passed in 2015, gives victims the right to information about the investigation of the crime they have suffered, including its progress and any prosecutions that arise. The legislation also offers the right to protection during the process, the right to participation by providing victim-impact statements, and the rights to restitution over the crime, and to complain if those rights are not upheld....”
******
The above case also regards an obvious homicide but the sister was initially informed “it could be suicide”.
“Soon after, police informed the family that they had opened a homicide investigation, but did not make it public knowledge until Nov. 30, telling CBC News that secrecy was necessary to avoid "damaging" the active investigation. The investigation is ongoing.”
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J
JS may have talked to police after the murders, but I learned from the Dec. 15th Kenvin
Donovan article in The Toronto Star that :
" Late that Tuesday evening, son Jonathon and husband Fred arrive back from their trip to Japan. Jet lagged, they went to their home in King City, arriving by around 7 p.m."
"By 6 p.m. Friday night shocked family were gathering at Alexandra and Brad’s house in Forest Hill. Kaelen and her fiancé arrived in the early afternoon. Jonathon and Fred had driven that morning to Apsley (near Peterborough) to check out their new cottage, and drove back to Toronto."
In my opinion, this would mean that JS and his husband Fred were back in the Toronto area on the day and evening of the murder on Wed. Dec. 13 th. They did not leave the Toronto area until Fri. morning when they drove to their cottage near Peterborough. They may only have each other to provide alibis about their whereabouts and activities on Wed. the 13th when the Shermans were murdered, and perhaps even until Fri. the 16th when they joined family in Toronto.
"Police say the Shermans were murdered between 9 p.m. and 12 midnight on Wednesday, Dec. 13, but have not said how they have determined this."
It also sounds like Honey arrived home around 8 p.m. and Barry around 9 p.m. but they were not actually murdered until between 9 p.m. and 12 p.m. on the 13th, so Honey was likely kept alive, even if unconscious until Barry was attacked and tied up. Then they were both murdered by neck compression between 9 p.m. and 12 p.m.
IMO
JS may have talked to police after the murders, but I learned from the Dec. 15th Kenvin
Donovan article in The Toronto Star that :
" Late that Tuesday evening, son Jonathon and husband Fred arrive back from their trip to Japan. Jet lagged, they went to their home in King City, arriving by around 7 p.m."
"By 6 p.m. Friday night shocked family were gathering at Alexandra and Brad’s house in Forest Hill. Kaelen and her fiancé arrived in the early afternoon. Jonathon and Fred had driven that morning to Apsley (near Peterborough) to check out their new cottage, and drove back to Toronto."
In my opinion, this would mean that JS and his husband Fred were back in the Toronto area on the day and evening of the murder on Wed. Dec. 13 th. They did not leave the Toronto area until Fri. morning when they drove to their cottage near Peterborough. They may only have each other to provide alibis about their whereabouts and activities on Wed. the 13th when the Shermans were murdered, and perhaps even until Fri. the 16th when they joined family in Toronto.
"Police say the Shermans were murdered between 9 p.m. and 12 midnight on Wednesday, Dec. 13, but have not said how they have determined this."
It also sounds like Honey arrived home around 8 p.m. and Barry around 9 p.m. but they were not actually murdered until between 9 p.m. and 12 p.m. on the 13th, so Honey was likely kept alive, even if unconscious until Barry was attacked and tied up. Then they were both murdered by neck compression between 9 p.m. and 12 p.m.
IMO
RBBM
The Canadian Victims Bill of Rights (CVBR) defines a victim as an individual who has suffered physical or emotional harm, economic loss or property damage as a result of a crime committed in Canada.
All victims may exercise their rights under the CVBR while they are in Canada. Canadian citizens or permanent residents may exercise these rights even if they are outside of Canada, as long as the crime took place in Canada. If a victim is deceased or is unable to act on their own behalf, the following people may act on the victim’s behalf:
- the victim’s spouse
- an individual who had been living with the victim as their common law partner for at least one year at the time of the crime
- a relative or dependant of the victim
- anyone who has custody of the victim or of the victim’s dependant.
Right to information
You have the right, on request, to information about the criminal justice system and your role in it and available victim services and programs. You also have the right, on request, to specific information about the progress of the case, including information relating to the investigation, prosecution, and sentencing of the person who harmed you, and information about an accused who has been found unfit to stand trial or not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder, while that person is under the jurisdiction of a court or a Review Board.
So as I understand it, if for example anyone that BS owed money to that has not been repaid, or anyone who suffered an economic loss, or physical or emotional harm as a result of his death or the death of HS (there could be many people that fit this description), that person can request specific information about the progress of the investigation of the case? Who knew?
Based on the information that we have, it would appear that your timeline is correct. I would certainly hope (and assume) that TPS has tried to verify JS and FM's whereabouts in the days surrounding Dec 13.
MistyWaters
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You might want to check with a lawyer on that.
I’m just reading what the Bill of Rights actually says. I’m sure in practice LE would say nothing, as is usual, if I asked.
MistyWaters
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One thing to consider is not all victims of crime are murdered.
the definition of victim in the legislation is very open ended IMO
Dec 14 2020
WARMINGTON: Sherman murder mystery unsolved, but their legacy lives on | Toronto Sun
''When you have one of Canada’s richest couples strangled in their home in a crime that is staged to make the slaying appear as something else, journalists naturally cover the case. The killer or killers, after all, are still out there.''
''Honey, 70, and Barry, 75, had so much to live for. They were building their dream house, involved in dozens of charitable projects and were set to travel to Florida for the holidays.
Something evil happened to change that forever.
On the third anniversary, we don’t forget their four kids — Jonathon, Lauren, Alexandra and Kaelen — who don’t think of it as one of Toronto’s most talked about whodunit murder cases. They hurt every day at the loss of these remarkable people.''
WARMINGTON: Sherman murder mystery unsolved, but their legacy lives on | Toronto Sun
''When you have one of Canada’s richest couples strangled in their home in a crime that is staged to make the slaying appear as something else, journalists naturally cover the case. The killer or killers, after all, are still out there.''
''Honey, 70, and Barry, 75, had so much to live for. They were building their dream house, involved in dozens of charitable projects and were set to travel to Florida for the holidays.
Something evil happened to change that forever.
On the third anniversary, we don’t forget their four kids — Jonathon, Lauren, Alexandra and Kaelen — who don’t think of it as one of Toronto’s most talked about whodunit murder cases. They hurt every day at the loss of these remarkable people.''
Anyone trying to determine who is a "victim" per Canadian Victims Bill of Rights may find info at link helpful.
I skimmed it quickly. Not sure if it's on point, so personally
I cannot offer you money-back guarantees. Lol.
Caution: dated 2015, this pdf contrasts and compares Canada-wide law CVBR to BritCol.'s provincial Victims of Crime Act (VOCA). https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/l...ning/cvrb-chart-infor-for-victim-services.pdf
ETA: scroll down to Table of CVBR complaints filed and how resolved, 2018-2019.
Public Safety Canada Portfolio Report: Victim Complaint Resolution Mechanism – Canadian Victims Bill of Rights
I skimmed it quickly. Not sure if it's on point, so personally
I cannot offer you money-back guarantees. Lol.Caution: dated 2015, this pdf contrasts and compares Canada-wide law CVBR to BritCol.'s provincial Victims of Crime Act (VOCA). https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/l...ning/cvrb-chart-infor-for-victim-services.pdf
ETA: scroll down to Table of CVBR complaints filed and how resolved, 2018-2019.
Public Safety Canada Portfolio Report: Victim Complaint Resolution Mechanism – Canadian Victims Bill of Rights
Not sure I buy that all hurt equally. 'Nuff said.
December 15, 2020
It's been 3 years since Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead. Court documents reveal what we know so far
''The housekeeper told police that Honey, who has problems with her knees, rarely went to the basement and another witness interviewed by investigators said the couple’s pool was rarely used.
The realtor told police she remembered Barry once mentioning something about a camera by the pool but she said she didn’t think it worked.''
''Investigators have released very few details about their investigation to date and big blocks of text have been redacted in the recently released court documents so as not to reveal any “persons of interest” identified by witnesses in the case.
In a statement sent to CTV News Toronto this week, Toronto police said the case is still “very active and ongoing,” with investigative steps being taken “every single day.”
“This is a difficult day for all of those who were close to the Shermans. We know it is frustrating when limited updates are available to the public in order to protect the integrity of the investigation,” the statement read.
“We are committed to bringing closure and justice to the family and the community.”
It's been 3 years since Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead. Court documents reveal what we know so far
''The housekeeper told police that Honey, who has problems with her knees, rarely went to the basement and another witness interviewed by investigators said the couple’s pool was rarely used.
The realtor told police she remembered Barry once mentioning something about a camera by the pool but she said she didn’t think it worked.''
''Investigators have released very few details about their investigation to date and big blocks of text have been redacted in the recently released court documents so as not to reveal any “persons of interest” identified by witnesses in the case.
In a statement sent to CTV News Toronto this week, Toronto police said the case is still “very active and ongoing,” with investigative steps being taken “every single day.”
“This is a difficult day for all of those who were close to the Shermans. We know it is frustrating when limited updates are available to the public in order to protect the integrity of the investigation,” the statement read.
“We are committed to bringing closure and justice to the family and the community.”
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From the same article: (RBBM)
According to the redacted documents, Honey’s sister Mary told police that while the couple, who had been married for 40 years, would sometimes fight over Barry’s long hours at the office, they “could not live without each other.” Police said she also told them that “everyone wanted to get near” them because of their wealth.
What an absolutely horrible thing to say about your sister and brother in law, who were so very generous to MS and her family for many many years.
Does MS believe that the Sherman's only had friends because they were wealthy?
Does "everyone" include MS?
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Agreed, it seems from the description/definition of 'victim', it could include pretty much anyone that was close to the Shermans, ie "The Canadian Victims Bill of Rights (CVBR) defines a victim as an individual who has suffered ... emotional harm, ... as a result of a crime committed in Canada." I'm thinking most of those close to the Shermans would have suffered emotional harm to some degree?
Anyway, I think it does not state that "Canadian laws as it applies to victims, a term which also includes close relatives", but rather, that relatives may exercise a victim's rights if the victim is dead: "the following individuals may exercise a victim’s rights under this Act if the victim is dead or incapable of acting on their own behalf: ... (c) a relative or dependant of the victim;" (Canadian Victims Bill of Rights).
That said, the interpretation (at same link) states that, in regard to information on the investigation:
7 Every victim has the right, on request, to information about
- (a) the status and outcome of the investigation into the offence; and
- (b) the location of proceedings in relation to the offence, when they will take place and their progress and outcome. ...
MistyWaters
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Thanks dotr!
From your link, what stood out for me -
BBM
Early media reports are not always accurate, those reports claimed Honey was found sitting in a pool of blood....but
“The realtor told police that she saw Barry and Honey Sherman at the far end of the room on the pool deck with their heads elevated and hanging on the railing leading into the pool.
She said she initially thought it was “some weird meditation or yoga” and there was no blood.”
***
No mention of coats at all.
“When officers arrived on scene, they discovered Barry and Honey fully clothed in the basement near their pool in a “semi-seated” position, facing the wall. Their arms were behind them but not bound and there were two black belts looped round their necks with the other end attached to a railing.”
***
M/S can’t have been TPS’s prevailing theory until only days prior to the Jan 26th PC -
“In the early stages of the investigation, police considered three possible outcomes in the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman, including a double suicide, a double homicide, and a murder-suicide in which Barry killed his wife and then ended his own life......
....In one document submitted to the court in December 2017, police noted that while the murder-suicide theory was still on the table, there was no evidence to suggest that Barry’s death was a suicide as he appeared “to have led a fulfilling life, with no mental health issues or illness.”......
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