George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 2

[Wild Rose]

(A little OT perhaps, or perhaps not)

Absolutely. I was in a wicked car accident when I was young. We were travelling at 50 mph down a country road (at the speed limit). We were hit head on by a car coming around a bend on our side of the road. We were told afterwards that the force upon us at that time was equivalent to 100 mph ... 50 mph from our vehicle, 50 mph from hitting the oncoming vehicle (like hitting a brick wall, stopping us immediately).

As you say, equal and opposite force.

Which is why I am cognizant of George being pressed into the hard road, both on his lungs and on his neck. Basically having the air squished out of him, and air not being able to enter again properly.

So sorry about your accident. One of the worst things about this case is understanding that whatever force we see applied to Mr. Floyd, it is almost doubled. I also very much admired the bystander Mr. Williams who understood the true dynamic of the pressure. Martial arts instructors by me often teach the police the various holds. So Mr. Williams completely understood the dynamics of the event he eyewitnessed and tried so hard to intervene in IMO

 

[margarita25]

(A little OT perhaps, or perhaps not)

Absolutely. I was in a wicked car accident when I was young. We were travelling at 50 mph down a country road (at the speed limit). We were hit head on by a car coming around a bend on our side of the road. We were told afterwards that the force upon us at that time was equivalent to 100 mph ... 50 mph from our vehicle, 50 mph from hitting the oncoming vehicle (like hitting a brick wall, stopping us immediately).

As you say, equal and opposite force.

Which is why I am cognizant of George being pressed into the hard road, both on his lungs and on his neck. Basically having the air squished out of him, and air not being able to enter again properly.

(Newton, equal & opposite reaction. Law of gravity. I hear ya. Glad you recovered, SA.)


—
eta: DP
PA=Prosecuting Attorney

Rough notes from day 4 / initial convo with DP:

DC: “Uh, not really - we just had to hold the guy down, it was, uh, he was going crazy, uh, wouldn’t go in the back of the uh squad car”

(“Shutting off”- for private convo)

Off record, said he (paraphrasing) had trouble getting him in the car...had become combative, had an injured nose, or bloody lip & eventually after struggling with him that he’d suffered a medical emergency and an ambulance was called”

...and to head out to the scene”.

—


“Knee on neck not necessarily excessive force...”reasonable” until you get control , until they’re not handcuffed and not continuing to fight with you anymore”


“****PA aks DP “so once the subject is handcuffed and no longer
resisting?”*****

DP: “Yes”

PA: “At that point the restrain(?) should stop”?

DP-(pause) “Yeah”

(PA=Prosecuting Attorney)
—

Eta2

Day 4
Ex 226(?) “5-316 Use of force restrain technique
Maximum restraint technique

Officers are knowledgeable about and trained on positional asphyxia

Must be moved on their side so they can breathe better!!

***point is made this is just for their own body weight, not even taking into account the additional weight of 3 additional officers!!*****

 

[shotgun09]

Yeah this is deep. I hear ya. But again, GF just happened to die at that moment DC’s knee was on his neck? I hear you about potential contributing factors...maybe he died sooner as a result, idk, he died under DC’s knee. He was alive before that, then gee everyone happened to be witnessing this was compromising GF’s condition yelling get off his neck he’s dying, I’m tired. I rest my case with walk like a duck, talk like a duck, he died in front of our eyes, Tired, goodnight.

eta I know nothing about meth, and doses, but noting from above ftr “Methamphetamine 19 ng/mL“, whatever that means in the big picture, I have no idea if that’s a lot or a little.

eta2: as far as the caffeine and weed, I doubt that had anything to do with anything, jmo moo IANAD.

eta3: so would GF be alive despite all this, I think he would, jmo. No knee on the neck, no death JMO.

I hear you margarita25! I saw and felt the same as you! I think I would have pushed my way forward to help Mr Floyd if I was there as a witness to his death. Like all, I was sickened and mortified while watching the video. Now, as facts become available, (like LindaNJ said earlier today) this was like the perfect storm. All the storm fronts 'collided' ....including DC's knee on the neck. Drugs? Probable overdose? Drug induced panic attack, while resisting arrest? History of serious heart disease? IMO, they all contribute to the 'perfect storm' scenario, and GF died, witnessed by the world as he took his last breath.

 

[margarita25]

BBM

So sorry about your accident. One of the worst things about this case is understanding that whatever force we see applied to Mr. Floyd, it is almost doubled. I also very much admired the bystander Mr. Williams who understood the true dynamic of the pressure. Martial arts instructors by me often teach the police the various holds. So Mr. Williams completely understood the dynamics of the event he eyewitnessed and tried so hard to intervene in IMO

Exactly, imo.

 

[Lilibet]

Too much of a coincidence that George 'died from an OD' during the exact moments that officers were kneeling on his neck, as well as compressing his lungs against the hard road surface. Limiting/stopping his body from being able to intake adequate oxygen.

Exactly! That “coincidence” absolutely strains credulity. And even if the drugs and his medical issues could have killed Mr Floyd within minutes or the hour or the day of his arrest, it was Chauvin and crew who actually killed him by preventing oxygen from reaching his brain.

Excusing them is like saying it’s OK for a nurse to smother a terminally ill patient an hour or a day before they would have died anyway. And the nurse can’t escape a guilty verdict by saying “The patient abused their body and hastened their own demise” when the nurse pressed the pillow to their face until the patient could no longer breath. And Chauvin can’t escape blame by saying “Mr Floyd took drugs that hastened his own death” when his death was caused by an external force...Chauvin and crew. The defense that “Floyd would have died anyway from an overdose” should not create “reasonable doubt” IMO. Just like the nurse, LE has a duty to treat those in their charge with compassion and respect and do their best to keep them alive. Chauvin failed in this fundamental obligation to a fellow human being.
JMO

 

[margarita25]

Too much of a coincidence that George 'died from an OD' during the exact moments that officers were kneeling on his neck, as well as compressing his lungs against the hard road surface. Limiting/stopping his body from being able to intake adequate oxygen.

(Exactly, jmo)

 

[sorrell skye]

Re Camera Perspective Bias and knee on neck vs knee on shoulder blade.

Decided to put two stills side by side and take a look at both videos again. First still is when GF was still alive and still talking, he was raising his right shoulder regularly (to try to breath IMO) - knee is clearly on the neck. Right one is just before the paramedics picked him up. He's medically dead at this point. His shoulders have almost merged into his head - knee is on shoulder blade (because there's basically there's no visible area of neck).

Defence definitely can't claim that Chauvin's knee was on the shoulder blade the whole time - absolute nonsense IMO and I hope he drops that argument quickly. MOO.

View attachment 291477
Source: youtube.com/watch?v=IWbA2brcEbg youtube.com/watch?v=JP5OpOEW2_g

TY for posting these side-by-side pics.

IMO, Chauvin only moved his knee from George Floyd's neck when the paramedic wanted to check for a carotid pulse. Up until that moment, his knee was clearly positioned on GF's neck.

Of course the defense attorney is trying to cast doubt by showing those final few seconds when the defendant moved his knee to the shoulder blade area.

But for the majority of the time, DC's knee was planted firmly against the lateral side of George's neck.

Anyone with eyes to see can clearly see.

Gaslighting seems to be the primary tactic of this defense attorney.

I hope this jury is able to see the truth.

 

[MsBetsy]

I hear you margarita25! I saw and felt the same as you! I think I would have pushed my way forward to help Mr Floyd if I was there as a witness to his death. Like all, I was sickened and mortified while watching the video. Now, as facts become available, (like LindaNJ said earlier today) this was like the perfect storm. All the storm fronts 'collided' ....including DC's knee on the neck. Drugs? Probable overdose? Drug induced panic attack, while resisting arrest? History of serious heart disease? IMO, they all contribute to the 'perfect storm' scenario, and GF died, witnessed by the world as he took his last breath.

I think he would have been just as likely to die from a heart attack while working out or playing basketball or other sports, after over exerting himself. No matter which way I look at it, I think the officers actions, especially Chauvins, played a significant role in his death. I think there is a good chance he would be alive if they had just called 911 and never restrained him. He was fine when he was sitting against the wall in handcuffs.

 

[mickey2942]

Yes, there are a lot of issues, but it's possible this exercise could help the students to look at all sides/angles of a problem. It might teach them to weigh facts and think for themselves

Or get bullied and ostracized if they don't follow the herd. Imagine if a child actually wanted to stick up for Chauvin?

"He was a police officer, who was in a situation with a potentially violent person, on unknown substances who could have been a danger to himself and others.

George Floyd had been incarcerated, with a history of violent crimes, drug addiction, and interactions with police officers.".

And there goes the lesson plan, into a shouting match. Unless of course, everyone in the entire classroom is in agreement with the herd. High school has never been a place that allows freedom of expression. Or a dissenting opinion.

Seems like the "lesson" would have been to just nod and agree with the teacher. No doubt, a useful life skill. Kill all independent thought.

 

[sorrell skye]

I interpret totally differently. I think he was trying to explain the foam around his mouth as some kind of excessive sweat one may get if they were just working out hard...if anything I think he was trying to deny that he had used any kind of drugs in any kind of way

I agree with your interpretation, Angel.

Logically, WTH would GF have told LE that he had been "hooping" i.e. "anally inserting" drugs? IMO, it's an absurd notion that he would have communicated that to LE, especially under the circumstances.

 

[Trident]

Or get bullied and ostracized if they don't follow the herd. Imagine if a child actually wanted to stick up for Chauvin?

"He was a police officer, who was in a situation with a potentially violent person, on unknown substances who could have been a danger to himself and others.

George Floyd had been incarcerated, with a history of violent crimes, drug addiction, and interactions with police officers.".

And there goes the lesson plan, into a shouting match. Unless of course, everyone in the entire classroom is in agreement with the herd. High school has never been a place that allows freedom of expression. Or a dissenting opinion.

Seems like the "lesson" would have been to just nod and agree with the teacher. No doubt, a useful life skill. Kill all independent thought.

I wondered about myself if I were a juror on this case. There are so many facets to this case. Would I be able to look at them all intelligently and come to an equitable decision without prejudice of any sort? It would take a lot of courage. Maybe courage is something we should be teaching our children, to stand up for what's right?

I believe, if we could teach our children to see that the whole picture/puzzle consists of many smaller pieces, we would be on our way to a fairer justice system and perhaps a better world.

I see this case, with all of its ramifications, as a great time for all of us to reassess our own selves and our thought patterns.

 

[KALI]

What the heck happened to teaching children the ABC's?
Children need to know reading and arithmetic.
They do NOT need to try to analyze the actions of an admitted drug user and how he died during a trial that is in session without a verdict yet to be determined.
The REAL employers "anywhere" in this world will NOT care a whit about how these students feel about this trial.
Employers want people who can read and write, take responsibility and make their
Companies money.
They will never give a whit about their thoughts and/or feelings about this trial.
What the heck is wrong with these teachers?
They seem to be trying how to be more "woke then the next teacher".
Stop politizing our youth!
My opinion. Absolutely. MOO

Parents incensed after students forced to be mock jurors for Derek Chauvin trial

I can appreciate that this is an important trial, but as a parent, I am not comfortable with a teacher showing this trial in a classroom, and making this particular trial a focus of a lesson, making students be "mock jurors".

This trial has way too many issues, this went off of the "Core Cirriculum". Way off.

 

[Gibbo214]

What the heck happened to teaching children the ABC's?
Children need to know reading and arithmetic.
They do NOT need to try to analyze the actions of an admitted drug user and how he died during a trial that is in session without a verdict yet to be determined.
The REAL employers "anywhere" in this world will NOT care a whit about how these students feel about this trial.
Employers want people who can read and write, take responsibility and make their
Companies money.
They will never give a whit about their thoughts and/or feelings about this trial.
What the heck is wrong with these teachers?
They seem to be trying how to be more "woke then the next teacher".
Stop politizing our youth!
My opinion. Absolutely. MOO

Because, IMO education is not about making students wage slaves. It used to be, that education was valued for its own sake, not about making companies money.

 

[sorrell skye]

No one likes talking about the autopsy though. I couldn’t imagine why.

Au contraire. I look forward to hearing the autopsy evidence when presented and testified to at trial by the Medical Examiner.

 

[ACE422]

So sorry about your accident. One of the worst things about this case is understanding that whatever force we see applied to Mr. Floyd, it is almost doubled. I also very much admired the bystander Mr. Williams who understood the true dynamic of the pressure. Martial arts instructors by me often teach the police the various holds. So Mr. Williams completely understood the dynamics of the event he eyewitnessed and tried so hard to intervene in IMO

Mr. Williams made an extremely effective witness for the prosecution and cross examination was disastrous for the defense.
I feel sorry for for witnesses who were powerless to help Mr. Floyd. Officer Lane asked 3 times (I believe) if they should roll him to his side (per protocol). Chauvin was the senior officer and declined to follow protocol, even when asked multiple times. It would be a tough position for the junior officers. Gross abuse of power and force that resulted in a man’s death IMO.

 

[MsBetsy]

I agree with your interpretation, Angel.

Logically, WTH would GF have told LE that he had been "hooping" i.e. "anally inserting" drugs? IMO, it's an absurd notion that he would have communicated that to LE, especially under the circumstances.

But he did tell them he had been hooping. I don't think he meant he was playing basketball. How would that make him act erratically? He knew what they meant. Usually people say let's "shoot some hoops" in reference to basketball. I've never heard anyone say "let's go hooping."

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

I agree with your interpretation, Angel.

Logically, WTH would GF have told LE that he had been "hooping" i.e. "anally inserting" drugs? IMO, it's an absurd notion that he would have communicated that to LE, especially under the circumstances.

I have never seen foam coming from someone’s mouth after playing basketball. I’m more inclined to believe it’s a drug reference. I had never heard of it before but likely the officers knew he was on something.

 

[Gibbo214]

But he did tell them he had been hooping. I don't think he meant he was playing basketball. How would that make him act erratically? He knew what they meant. Usually people say let's "shoot some hoops" in reference to basketball. I've never heard anyone say "let's go hooping."

One person's erratically is another person's normal.

 

[MsBetsy]

Au contraire. I look forward to hearing the autopsy evidence when presented and testified to at trial by the Medical Examiner.

Yes, me too, especially Dr. Joyce Carter. She said that the two autopsy results are really not all that different. They both say the same thing but in a different way. Both found the death to be a homicide, with police subdual, neck and back restraints to be a significant factor. The important thing is that neither found the cause of death to be drug overdose, which the defense is claiming. Imo

 

[shotgun09]

In my further review of the autopsy report, it is evident that GF had some serious heart disease.

"Cross sections of the vessels show multifocal atherosclerosis, with 75% proximal and 75% mid narrowing of the left anterior descending coronary artery; 75% proximal narrowing of the 1st diagonal branch of the left anterior descending coronary artery; 25% proximal narrowing of the circumflex coronary artery; and 90% proximal narrowing of the right coronary artery. "

IMO as a Cardiac Nurse, GF had serious triple vessel disease. Serious enough to possibly require Open Heart surgery, or at the least some staged interventions implanting multiple stents. I might even go so far to say that a Cardiologist might opine that he was a " walking time bomb" or similar descriptor, especially in light of his recent history of drug overdose and continued drug use. IMO, If one is to continue adding Meth and Fentanyl combined, (with all their pleasant and not so pleasant effects ) to their already stressed out, damaged and overworked heart, disaster is bound to occur.