Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #135

[SMK777]

I think the records request would be more for his current trial to show a pattern of behavior and criminal activity to use for prosecution, since it was requested by the prosecutor. I still think it's a positive sign that they haven't ruled him out yet though. This is such a high profile, high publicity crime and I'd expect them to have their ducks in a row. I understand the families have been waiting, but if they know it's him and he's already in jail, then I'd say it's worth waiting if it means a conviction and an end to a 4 year search. I still have a good feeling about this. Too many things just add up. He could end up being linked to more than just Delphi.

I had thought of this aspect as well, but I’ve always understood that prior crimes can’t be brought up in a current case—Even if they’re strongly related (eg prior rape charges in a current rape case).

Additionally, the case involving the 9 year old is so extremely criminal in it’s known details, that these priors seem innocuous in comparison.

I do see your point, but I can’t help feeling that they’re also combing through his history with an eye to Delphi, and the DA’s office may be a part of this.

As the maxim goes: Time will tell..

 

[Inthedetails]

I had thought of this aspect as well, but I’ve always understood that prior crimes can’t be brought up in a current case—Even if they’re strongly related (eg prior rape charges in a current rape case).

Additionally, the case involving the 9 year old is so extremely criminal in it’s known details, that these priors seem innocuous in comparison.

I do see your point, but I can’t help feeling that they’re also combing through his history with an eye to Delphi, and the DA’s office may be a part of this.

As the maxim goes: Time will tell..

I agree. The case with the 9yo is tight - really no need to show anything other than the happenings the evening of the crime. He was caught in the act and there is no need to prove a pattern of prior crimes because this particular crime scene is full of convincing evidence.

I think they are hunting to connect him to crimes other than the one against 9yo.

They are putting together his life's timeline, imo.

I admit, I HOPE that is what they are doing.

jmo

 

[Yemelyan]

I had thought of this aspect as well, but I’ve always understood that prior crimes can’t be brought up in a current case—Even if they’re strongly related (eg prior rape charges in a current rape case).

Snipped by me...this is not necessarily so, IMO. The rules regarding the admissibility of prior convictions vary from state to state and judges will interpret them situationally according to those laws.

IMO it's generally true that prior convictions typically cannot be used as proof of motive, intent, or propensity to commit a certain crime. But one way that prior convictions could come in would be, for example, if the accused person decided to testify on his own behalf. Then, it's my understanding, that could open the door to past convictions being questioned or brought in, especially if they pertained to demonstrating the defendant's honesty with regard to his testimony.

Another issue is, if prior bad acts could make him a habitual offender, sometimes there is an enhanced charge that can apply (for example, in a plea deal situation).

It's too early to know whether JBC would testify/take a plea but I think it's good for the prosecutor to be aware of his full record with regard to past acts, especially if there are any that impeach his credibility or could enhance his charges. I'm not a lawyer, though. So this is only MOO.

 

[minazoe]

of course they are doing it..this is deadly serious business..you have watched the crime shows etc..you see what these detectives need before they can go live..I mean it's a very high bar.... and if JBC is a big fish , they
want all the information they can find so everything matches and cross references perfectly.

this way they can also push for a confession as Indiana is a Death State and they don't play games. mOO

 

[iamnotagolem]

Before someone is sentenced there is a Presentencing Investigation (PSI) that is done, that includes all of the criminal history. This can help a judge determine how to sentence the offender.

I’m not sure at this point if a PSI has been ordered, seems too early in the process so it might be the DAs office is requesting criminal history just for their own purposes.

 

[Inthedetails]

Before someone is sentenced there is a Presentencing Investigation (PSI) that is done, that includes all of the criminal history. This can help a judge determine how to sentence the offender.

I’m not sure at this point if a PSI has been ordered, seems too early in the process so it might be the DAs office is requesting criminal history just for their own purposes.

That is interesting. Can they present information that didn't come up during the trial?

 

[iamnotagolem]

That is interesting. Can they present information that didn't come up during the trial?

The Judge, the defense attorney and prosecuting attorney all get a copy of the PSI. In my experience, the defense attorney reviews it with the client to verify accuracy. I’ve seen judges go line by line during a sentencing hearing allowing a defendant to explain anything on the criminal history report and (I can’t think of the word, but argue it’s validity) give the defendant a chance to see the accumulation of his crimes, and why he’s getting the sentence he’s getting.

Then again, not all judges even bother reading the PSI.

 

[taylorss]

... I'll go along with what LE has indicated for some time now, that BG used the main trail to get back to a vehicle at the abandoned CPS building. ...

Wait LE said that? I know they asked if anyone saw a car parked there. But IIRC they asked about hitchhiker etc too. Did they settle on he left in a vehicle? Thanks!

 

[Spartygirl]

I had thought of this aspect as well, but I’ve always understood that prior crimes can’t be brought up in a current case—Even if they’re strongly related (eg prior rape charges in a current rape case).

Additionally, the case involving the 9 year old is so extremely criminal in it’s known details, that these priors seem innocuous in comparison.

I do see your point, but I can’t help feeling that they’re also combing through his history with an eye to Delphi, and the DA’s office may be a part of this.

As the maxim goes: Time will tell..

Ahh Yes !!
The Delphi mayor that is now a prosecuting attorney in the DA's office of Carrol County.
I am sure they are a big part of looking into JBC.
JMO

 

[Mom24]

I'm probably in the minority here, but I just don't think JBC is BG. The age difference and the circumstances are just too different.

 

[SMK777]

I'm probably in the minority here, but I just don't think JBC is BG. The age difference and the circumstances are just too different.

I don’t know if you’re in the minority. I have hope that it’s him, but I have doubts as well. What do you mean by the age difference, and what circumstances?

 

[Mom24]

I don’t know if you’re in the minority. I have hope that it’s him, but I have doubts as well. What do you mean by the age difference, and what circumstances?

Typically pedophiles have an age that they stick with, a child at 9 yrs old is different than a pre-teen at 13-14. Also, JBC lured the 9 yr old girl inside his house while Abby and Libby weren't taken into a home. It seems so different to abduct a child and take them into your home to assault them and stalking a more remote area to wait for a victim.

 

[minazoe]

while it is true pedos tend to have age preferences ...I think we have to remember his first occupation is sadism as he is more than just a pedophile...he is a killer...mOO

 

[sleuther28]

while it is true pedos tend to have age preferences ...I think we have to remember his first occupation is sadism as he is more than just a pedophile...he is a killer...mOO

Exactly. His own brother said he tried to drown him when he was a kid. This guy has been antisocial his whole life. Ted Bundy mostly stuck with young adult women but his last victim was a 12 year old because that was the opportunity that presented itself to him.

 

[abc13]

(Time stamp is 1 min 30 sec)

I have written what is being said in the video by Capt. Dave Bursten of Indiana State Police below:

People want to make the assumption that the voice saying 'Down the hill' belongs to the person that is captured in the image from the cellphone. Thats not necessarily the case. We're not making any assumption about that. We have more video, we have more audio, but it is specific to the investigation and thats why it is not being released at this time

1. Is he saying the voice saying 'Down the hill' may not belong the guy walking down the bridge?

2. Is he saying they have more video and audio from their phone but are not releasing it?

 

[mekeritrig]

(Time stamp is 1 min 30 sec)

I have written what is being said in the video by Capt. Dave Bursten of Indiana State Police below:

​

1. Is he saying the voice saying 'Down the hill' may not belong the guy walking down the bridge?

2. Is he saying they have more video and audio from their phone but are not releasing it?

That portion of the video you linked is from March of 2017 before the "guys" portion of the audio clip as well as the video was released of the suspect. At the press conference in 2019 when the additional audio and video was released, Superintendent Carter also mentioned that LE believes "this IS the man responsible for the murders of Libby and Abby."

Original Bursten interview link: www.youtube.com/watch?v=87n-DeWJCU4
News story about updated information release including new audio, video, and sketch at 2019 presser: https://www.wrtv.com/delphi-murders-isp-say-new-audio-video-and-sketch-shows-libby-abbys-killer

 

[kkdj]

I had thought of this aspect as well, but I’ve always understood that prior crimes can’t be brought up in a current case—Even if they’re strongly related (eg prior rape charges in a current rape case).

Additionally, the case involving the 9 year old is so extremely criminal in it’s known details, that these priors seem innocuous in comparison.

I do see your point, but I can’t help feeling that they’re also combing through his history with an eye to Delphi, and the DA’s office may be a part of this.

As the maxim goes: Time will tell..

BBM
They did say in the filings that JBC is a habitual offender, so there's that.

 

[SMK777]

Typically pedophiles have an age that they stick with, a child at 9 yrs old is different than a pre-teen at 13-14. Also, JBC lured the 9 yr old girl inside his house while Abby and Libby weren't taken into a home. It seems so different to abduct a child and take them into your home to assault them and stalking a more remote area to wait for a victim.

Yes, that’s something to be taken into consideration, of course. It could indicate a whole different MO.

On the other hand, he may have impulse control issues around young females, whether 9 or 13, 14– and may act on them as the situation and surroundings permit. Only time will tell.

 

[Yemelyan]

Typically pedophiles have an age that they stick with, a child at 9 yrs old is different than a pre-teen at 13-14. Also, JBC lured the 9 yr old girl inside his house while Abby and Libby weren't taken into a home. It seems so different to abduct a child and take them into your home to assault them and stalking a more remote area to wait for a victim.

Just MOO but I think there are "true" pedophilic offenders who are attracted to/fantasize about a particular age range and then there are "opportunistic" or "situational" pedophilic offenders who are looking for vulnerable victims, period. Underage victims often fit the bill for the latter and may in fact be preferred as they are easier to abduct, control, or conceal but vulnerable adult women aren't safe either.

For example, from what I know about John Miller - who killed April Tinsley - I believe he would be an example of a true pedophile. I base this on his pattern of crimes against other girls (all very young) and the exact nature of his non-murder offenses and how he looked for these opportunities.

As an example of a situational pedophile, Michael Klunder (who often abducted pairs of victims) has known victims from age 2, to 13-14, to adult. His motive was predatory sexual assault in all cases, and while it's interesting that he took pairs of victims more than once, it's not clear if that was his preference or if he just operated in the most opportunistic way possible (looking for the best situation to get away with the abduction, not necessarily looking for victims with particular traits).

It would be interesting to know which type of offender LE believes JBC is, and which type of offender the Delphi killer is believed to be. For Delphi, investigators would use evidence from the crime scene and victimology to help determine this.

All MOO.

 

[SMK777]

Just MOO but I think there are "true" pedophilic offenders who are attracted to/fantasize about a particular age range and then there are "opportunistic" or "situational" pedophilic offenders who are looking for vulnerable victims, period. Underage victims often fit the bill for the latter and may in fact be preferred as they are easier to abduct, control, or conceal but vulnerable adult women aren't safe either.

For example, from what I know about John Miller - who killed April Tinsley - I believe he would be an example of a true pedophile. I base this on his pattern of crimes against other girls (all very young) and the exact nature of his non-murder offenses and how he looked for these opportunities.

As an example of a situational pedophile, Michael Klunder (who often abducted pairs of victims) has known victims from age 2, to 13-14, to adult. His motive was predatory sexual assault in all cases, and while it's interesting that he took pairs of victims more than once, it's not clear if that was his preference or if he just operated in the most opportunistic way possible (looking for the best situation to get away with the abduction, not necessarily looking for victims with particular traits).

It would be interesting to know which type of offender LE believes JBC is, and which type of offender the Delphi killer is believed to be. For Delphi, investigators would use evidence from the crime scene and victimology to help determine this.

All MOO.

Extremely important points, very well stated. Thank you.

We can’t yet know if JBC is linked to the Delphi murders, but as you state above he could definitely be the type who may fear rejection with adult women and use underage girls — whether 9 or 14 — as stand-ins because they’re easier to subdue.